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Old 2012-09-15, 00:28   Link #1201
Tenchi Ryu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BladeEntity View Post
If Chisato wins, the writing for it to happen needs to really spot on without leaving any rooms for plot holes for it to be believable.
That's the problem though. If you are familiar or have at least seen good writing in anime before, you should know its pretty impossible to make a BELIEVABLE Chisato wins ending with just 2-3 episodes left. Serious development like this takes at least about 4 episodes, basically a 10 year limitation that needs to be corrected. Now if this happened at like episode 7, it would have been a better amount of time to work with.

Its the series drawing near the end which makes me have doubts.
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Old 2012-09-15, 01:00   Link #1202
BladeEntity
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Then by all means I hope you are pleasently surprised at the end, because I'm gonna be optimistic here and say its possible rather than impossible. IMO the groundwork for it to work is there its the excecution that might make it look less than believable. The way it was done for me shows that the feelings are there but there is an obstacle in the way. Which is why,there either clear the trauma, and show a Chisato who is not emotionally dependant and show how the relationship could work if they intend to go that way.

I dislike the way the drama with Chisato was well done and believable but didn't help to show any good points about Chisato which I'm sure are underneath her overall possesiveness.
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Old 2012-09-15, 03:09   Link #1203
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
That was too much fun of a read.
Thank you, but I fear it has fallen on mostly deaf ears.


Quote:

Essentially, it boils down to this. The Chisato supporting game players who loves her no matter what is presented in the anime, and the majority of anime only viewers who thinks Chisato is the craziest thing since School Days due to what is shown in the anime. If you only go by what is shown in the anime, then yes, it is hard to support Chisato. However, you will notice her supporters are all essentially basing it on the game.
I wish this was the case, because then I could at least imagine there being some VN source material scenes that justifies the support of Chisato-Oojima. However, GenjiChan and Regal Star both state how its the anime that made them supporters of Chisato-Oojima, so there goes that.


Going strictly by the anime, I see a girl with serious psychological issues, and problems of emotional dependency, who is extremely possessive and jealously guarding of the person that her emotional dependency has been placed in. As far as Chisato-Oojima as a pairing is concerned, I see very little besides that at this point.

And the hints were always there, but I thought they were just "anime being anime" when it was really much more than that. Those hints being the scenes in earlier episodes of Chisato waking Oojima up every morning, of her trying to carefully direct and micromanage his life, of her expecting him to support her and the club that they're both a part of.

Originally, I thought this was just standard childhood friend stuff, maybe just a bit stronger than usual. But no, it's much more than that - It shows how Oojima has become the whole world to Chisato. Hence her extreme jealousy whenever Oojima is so much as cordial to another girl. Hence her disturbing overreaction to the injury he suffered.

Chisato's core problem is too much emotional dependency on Oojima. Yes, that problem is itself rooted in Chisato never truly moving on from her brother's passing, but the Oojima-based emotional dependency has clearly taken on a life of its own, and I really don't think that simply viewing Oojima as Oojima rather than as her long-lost brother would believably change that.

The problems of emotional dependency are obviously not alleviated if Chisato moves (in the span of just 2 or 3 episodes!) from where she is now to a serious romance with Oojima. If anything, those problems should logically be exacerbated by such a sudden shift, as romance tends to involve higher emotionality than platonic friendship.


If this was a two cour anime, and one that could incorporate time-skips, then I could see a scenario in which a Chisato-Oojima relationship would eventually (after a lot of good writing) seem both believable and reasonably healthy. But with the episodes that we have left? Definitely not. The only potential for them to "work out" in that time span involves breathtaking unbelievability, and anime pixie dust. It would even make Key (the masters of supernatural plot twists) blush.


To be clear, I don't think that Chisato is a bad person. I think she has the potential to be a very good and likeable person - In fact, that's how she came across to me in most of the anime, until the degree of her emotional dependency on Oojima became clear in these last two or three episodes.

But for Chisato to believably become that good and likeable person, she needs to become less emotionally dependent on Oojima. And it's extremely hard to see how that's achieved by her and Oojima entering into a romance together within the next two or three episodes. It's counter-intuitive to say the least.


But now, let's look at Oojima here. Do we really want him to end up in a romance (and possibly a future marriage) where his girlfriend/wife will seek to micromanage his affairs, and will become extremely jealous whenever Oojima is merely cordial with another woman? I like Oojima - I think he's generally a good guy - So I wouldn't wish that fate on him.

I think it's clear that all the other potential romantic partners would give the guy his space if they were in a romance with him. Other romances would be between equals, and partners. It's hard to see Oojima/Chisato as anything other than a girl clinging tightly to a guy while he goes about his life...
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-09-15 at 09:48. Reason: removed rep talk in quote
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Old 2012-09-15, 03:29   Link #1204
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I wish this was the case, because then I could at least imagine there being some VN source material scenes that justifies the support of Chisato-Oojima. However, GenjiChan and Regal Star both state how its the anime that made them supporters of Chisato-Oojima, so there goes that.
To be fair, I think GenjiChan and Regal Star both expect Chisato's issue to be resolved before Oojima decides to love her. The likely reason they support an OojimaxChisato pairing is because they had already taking a liking to the pairing way before this stuff was revealed. I think relentlessflame pretty much nails it when he says they're simply looking at the inevitable resolution more than the dilemma.
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Old 2012-09-15, 04:01   Link #1205
playmaker2k
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Sometimes the truth can't be seen when your blind from shipper goggles. If you put yourself in his shoes, you'd find a way to jettison from that situation by any means necessary. In this case, move out of town, take legal action, and/or lock your doors especially your windows.

Chisato is a whack job and needs to be put in an asylum!

Not trolling, I'm just seeing Yuuki's situation as an unhealthy relationship that should not grow after that event. If there's any credibility in anime anymore, this abomination should not come to pass. That is all.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-09-15 at 09:48. Reason: Do not talk about rep
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Old 2012-09-15, 04:13   Link #1206
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
To be fair, I think GenjiChan and Regal Star both expect Chisato's issue to be resolved before Oojima decides to love her. The likely reason they support an OojimaxChisato pairing is because they had already taking a liking to the pairing way before this stuff was revealed. I think relentlessflame pretty much nails it when he says they're simply looking at the inevitable resolution more than the dilemma.
But don't you think the resolution to Chisato's issues should logically involve her distancing herself from Oojima some, at least for a time? Or do you disagree with my argument that she's too emotionally dependent on him?
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Old 2012-09-15, 04:20   Link #1207
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Haak but thats how romances anime always works, pshychical problems are always resolved in the end, why KoiCo should end different? Chisato is already under therapy, shocking one. Its partially Yuuki fault that she neednt earlier to deal with her trauma, but at least in the end he deal with his own feelings and understand what he should do now.

Triple how its impossible for Chisato to stop it? Only reason why Chisato is that clingy to Yuuki is that he is her replacement for her brother. She is seeing him in two ways, but Yuuki real image is hidden deeply in her heart, under her brother image. After curing her trauma she would understand her real feelings for him. Everything now depends on Chisato, she is only one who can make move here. Noone can help her with it.

Its funny how Satsuki supporters arguments changed in time.... And I stupid was thinking that feelings are most important in romance...

Its even more funny how people are ok with real psycho like Shiro from Deadman Wonderland or Yuno from Mirai Nikki, but girl with real problem, which was deeping by Yuuki himself (she would be ok now if he would just talk about it with adults, problem like this should be cured in childhood) is not ok...
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Old 2012-09-15, 04:32   Link #1208
Tenchi Ryu
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Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
Its partially Yuuki fault that she neednt earlier to deal with her trauma, but at least in the end he deal with his own feelings and understand what he should do now.

It is in no way, shape or form Yuuki's fault, this actually has NOTHING to do with him. This is ALL on Chisato.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
After curing her trauma she would understand her real feelings for him. Everything now depends on Chisato, she is only one who can make move here. Noone can help her with it.
No, its not only on Chisato. The entire message Yuuki has been giving off is that not only does he refuse to love Chisato because he thinks she's using him, he's basically tried to abandon any start up of a possible relationship with her. Its not like she can say "Well I'm better now, lets date" and welcome her with open arms. He'd have to be truly convinced she wants him for him. I see no way that can be proven in 2 episodes, at least any believable way unless they use anime BS romance magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
Its funny how Satsuki supporters arguments changed in time.... And I stupid was thinking that feelings are most important in romance...
Who's feelings are you referring too? Yuuki has made it quite clear he doesn't want a relationship with too much baggage and past drama. Otherwise Satsuki and the other girls would have never had a chance to get with him in the first place.

This entire series has been about Yuuki encountering other romantic options since he probably felt there would never be a chance with Chisato.
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Old 2012-09-15, 04:49   Link #1209
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Haha when did i said sth about wanting or not relationship with her? I was talking only about his and her feelings, and that should be clear till now what they both feel deep in their hearts...

Its mostly Yuuki fault that she in this state now. Her trauma could be cured in childhood. Most people usually got help after tragedy like this and its best to heal it when you are still child. I was in situation like her two times in my life (i mean only tragedy part) and I knew how she feel. Ofc Yuuki was still child and we cant blame him for his stupid decision to sacrifice himself making her trauma sealed deep in her heart. But he is not child anymore and he understand that now. He deal with his own feelings. His actions from last episode wasnt to distance himself from Chisato- its just ONLY way to cure her. He is doing it for himself too, being her brother replacement isnt enough for him anymore. Everything depends on Chisato now- she only one who can make move here.

Quote:
This entire series has been about Yuuki encountering other romantic options since he probably felt there would never be a chance with Chisato.
Its not like he is looking for other options, girls just bumb into him accidentally. And yeaa ofc running away from his own feelings is real resolution to his problems... Good job "mr psychologist".
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Old 2012-09-15, 04:50   Link #1210
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But don't you think the resolution to Chisato's issues should logically involve her distancing herself from Oojima some, at least for a time? Or do you disagree with my argument that she's too emotionally dependent on him?
I agree that she's currently far too emotionally dependant on him. I don't think anyone, even the Chisato fans are denying that since thaat's what the entire issue issue about.

Whether it logically entails that she must spend considerable time away from him is debatable. I'm not psychologist so I don't really know what would would in a situation such as this. Sure I can believe that her spending time away from him would be the right thing to do but I'm far less certain that's the only method. There could be other ways. That's an area I'm less inclined to get into since I don't know enough to form a strong opinion.

But that's not even what I'm trying to get at. What I'm saying is that the reason some still prefer ChisatoxOojima is that they expect Chisato to resolve her issues before they start entering a serious relationship. If that's the case then there's no reason for Chisato to depend time away or whatever. The supporters are expecting some form of resolution, whatever it is, that would allow Chisato to enter a serious relationship with Oojima without any series problems. Yeah there isn't a lot of time for such an incredible resolution and it probably will be a stupid as hell resolution, but hey we know it's going to happen and the supporters probably sense that too which is why they can look past her flaws. I can't say I blame them since I've supported pairings for somewhat similar reasons in the past (E.g. Eureka Seven).
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Old 2012-09-15, 04:56   Link #1211
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
I've followed quite a few eroge adaptations.

I'm going to say that knowing the game beforehand is actually the WORST way to watch a show adapted from an eroge.

eroge players often have the wrong mindset when it comes to anime adaptations. They do not see character chemistry. They see flags. Most flags = that girl chosen for the ending route Wheee!.

But it doesn't matter if someone has 9 flags with a girl or not. What matters if he actually loves her romantically or not.
And I think this was demonstrated somewhat decently in Shuffle.

Also, this is a question that should be directed at his heart, not his penis.

.. which I admit, is very hard to differentiate when you're a hormonal teenager of a main character.
Objection!

As far as i can see the person who triggered the most flags based on the game is probably the least romantically involved with the main character. I already knew beforehand that it would not be that heroine based on the (rather lack of) character interactions between the main character and her.

edit:
I only use the events based on the game to determine which story line they are using , not on the outcome yet. Because most eroge adaptations tend to use bits from every route before deciding at 3/4 of the story which heroine they will use as the end. Also not every flag has the same severity, so basing who it will be on the quantity of flags has proven to be wrong quite a few times (the adaptations of Mashifoni, Akasaka and Hoshikaka comes to my mind as a few examples).

Last edited by hyl; 2012-09-15 at 05:16.
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Old 2012-09-15, 05:15   Link #1212
Dorsai
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Haak but even YuukixSatsuki ending cannot happen without curing Chisato trauma. Yuuki cant move forward leaving her behind, even if he wouldnt have any romantic feelings toward her.
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Old 2012-09-15, 05:22   Link #1213
thundrakkon
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I should pay attention more to my smartphone... So much to read.

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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Excuse me... I ain't playing the game for you information.
....

Again.. she is still having "post traumatic syndrome" and not Love disorder.. or whatever it is.... She needs your understanding and not insults....
My comments were more general, but I did not mean that everyone who supported Chisato was a game player. I thought my post shared that sentiment, but I guess I was wrong. Relentlessflame's perspective on the situation and how many people ask about the resolution allows some of the posts to be worded in a way that implied more knowledge than otherwise known from the anime alone. His thoughts are always spot on, as usual.

I understand that you have sympathies for Chisato, and she definitely needs help. As you suggested that she post traumatic syndrome, it is still a psychological condition that needs medical help. The problem though is that Yuuki is not a qualified medical expert to deal with this issue. Hence, he should not be the one to try and tackle this on his own, and he should have asked for help from qualified professionals.

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Originally Posted by Snuffle View Post
Lol wut? Seriously? That's interesting because...
Yeah, I was trying to be specific towards Chisato supporters that played the game. However, what relentlessflame has pointed out is definitely a better perspective on the whole issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
People who are focusing on the problem think that it's too significant and troubling to be overcome so quickly. People who are focusing on the resolution believe that this resolution is more important than the problem, and that a happy ending will still cause everything to work out for the couple.
This is a great perspective on things. It will really come down to execution in the end from the anime staff to pull off a reasonable conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RegalStar View Post
And Yuuki definitely isn't being forced to care for Chisato (whether by himself or by her). If you recall, in episode 1 he gave a speech that is highly admirable of her (the one speech that got him into voted as a candidate anyways). He has a pretty strong sense of morals, and I doubt he can lie out of his teeth like that just to try and get out of a troubling responsibility. And he clearly stated in this episode that he still wants to stay by her, just as himself and not Daiki.
Oftentimes, people with mental disturbances don't reflect it in their daily lives. Only under certain circumstances do these problems manifest themselves. Take for example stress. That is oftentimes considered a psychological condition that doctors excuse people from work for. However, you cannot always tell that the person sufferes from stress.

As for Yuuki, the way the relationship has worked out, it seems that Yuuki feels compelled to stay by her side and do what she wants. He tried to refuse her once, and that was a very scary moment in his life. Chisato is a good person, and she is also intelligent. However, her attachment to Yuuki has been unhealthy for her and for him. By being so attached to him, it means that she has not gotten over the death of her brother yet. She still needs to mourn and move on. Being with Yuuki will not allow her to do that in her current state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
That's the problem though. If you are familiar or have at least seen good writing in anime before, you should know its pretty impossible to make a BELIEVABLE Chisato wins ending with just 2-3 episodes left.
This series is 12 episodes long, so we only have 2 more episodes to discuss this awesome series.

We might end up with the usual, "they really rushed the ending there."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Originally, I thought this was just standard childhood friend stuff, maybe just a bit stronger than usual. But no, it's much more than that - It shows how Oojima has become the whole world to Chisato. Hence her extreme jealousy whenever Oojima is so much as cordial to another girl. Hence her disturbing overreaction to the injury he suffered.

Chisato's core problem is too much emotional dependency on Oojima. Yes, that problem is itself rooted in Chisato never truly moving on from her brother's passing, but the Oojima-based emotional dependency has clearly taken on a life of its own, and I really don't think that simply viewing Oojima as Oojima rather than as her long-lost brother would believably change that.
Yeah, the extreme attachment is very unhealthy, and it is hard to imagine how it will be converted into a believable love ending. It could very well end with an open ending concerning love.

Also, as I mentioned earlier in the post, another problem that Chisato has to face is moving on from the trauma of losing her brother. Yuuki has been a substitute for her brother, which only perpetuates the problem. She has to move on from her brother, then recognize Yuuki for who he is, and then she has to respect him with her actions. That is a lot for the anime to do, while also dealing with the elections (and being kidnapped ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
Triple how its impossible for Chisato to stop it? Only reason why Chisato is that clingy to Yuuki is that he is her replacement for her brother. She is seeing him in two ways, but Yuuki real image is hidden deeply in her heart, under her brother image. After curing her trauma she would understand her real feelings for him. Everything now depends on Chisato, she is only one who can make move here. Noone can help her with it.
Chisato really needs to see a psychiatrist to help her out. It really is difficult to overcome this on her own, and you are right, Yuuki cannot help her at this point. However, it will be unlikely that she will receive help in a professional manner, so Yuuki will probably end up playing a part in it.

Btw, a lot of people were not ok with a lot of psychotic behavior in the other series, but that would be digressing. You just need to go back to School Days, and you'll have a wonderful time reading what people think of psychotic conditions.

Next week can't come soon enough. The sooner we get this resolved, the better.
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Old 2012-09-15, 05:27   Link #1214
Haak
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Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
Haak but even YuukixSatsuki ending cannot happen without curing Chisato trauma. Yuuki cant move forward leaving her behind, even if he wouldnt have any romantic feelings toward her.
From a Watsonian perspective, I think Oojima is perfectly capable of being in a romance with someone else without curing Chisato. It would be a very bittersweet ending but it could happen.

From a Doylist perspective yes I would have to agree that pretty much nothing can happen until Chisato's trauma is cured. That's the direction the storyline seems to be going at the moment.
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Old 2012-09-15, 06:10   Link #1215
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Originally Posted by Dorsai View Post
Its mostly Yuuki fault that she in this state now. Her trauma could be cured in childhood. Most people usually got help after tragedy like this and its best to heal it when you are still child.
Dorsai, I understand your argument, I really do. Still, as I said before:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
It’s pretty sad that parents & shrinks’ roles in harem animes are almost nonexistent. Those people can be a great help for Chisato here.
The lack of the roles of parents (or any adults in general) has been a big plot hole in many harem animes, and it seems that Koichoco here is not an exception. So, maybe it’s not even Yuki’s fault, but the fault of the plot-hole instead.
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Old 2012-09-15, 06:35   Link #1216
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Her parents dont know that she blame herself for her brother death because of chocolate accident. And because of Yuuki sacrifice she seems to everyone perfectly fine (only few friends, like Mifuyu know or sense it). Her trauma is sealed. But because of it its got deeper, it should be cured when she was kid. Its not plot-hole, there are a lot cases in real life similiar to her case when parents know nothing about it (though most people havent sb like Yuuki to help them). Like i said earlier I experienced it by myself too and can understand how she feel. Though i was little older when my brother died, pain is still same.
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Old 2012-09-15, 07:20   Link #1217
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Great episode, the plot's really moving well at this point. The school reminds me a little bit about the country that I grew up in. It's a small country with low crime, a stable government that's largely perceived to be incorrupt, and a single state-run newspaper company. It's only after I left the country that I actually learnt about the complicated stuff occurring in its behind-the-scene political scene. The school's very similar to that country, with elections that look really simple but actually involve the political play that's characteristic of national elections. Most of the electorate that form the swing-vote majority are probably voting for the lulz (somewhat similar to what the people of that country of mine are apt to do), and don't know that their so called lulzy-voting is actually playing into the hands of the real politicians. It's obvious that they have no idea about the secret police network in the school.

So Michiru's a spy, and it's good to know that she isn't in the story for the sake of being in the story, but is actually linked to the overall plot. Hope to see more of her development in the future.
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Old 2012-09-15, 07:54   Link #1218
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I...........................don't see Chisato's issues getting resolved in 2 episodes. Not in a way that'd leave me satisfied at any rate. Her dependency isn't something that can be solved with a pep-talk like what tends to happen in these animes, and if they DO try to, it's just gonna feel rushed and unrealistic. I could see it happening if they made a second season though.
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Old 2012-09-15, 07:59   Link #1219
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For the curing of her trauma, the way I see it will probably have some sort of resolution whether it ends with Yuuki deciding that he really loves her too is something else altogether. Which is why I can see them going for Satsuki instead i think it will be obvious if this is the case after watching next weeks episode.

I think its kind of unfair to say that it would feel rushed and unbelievable to possibly show her getting cured within within the last 2 episodes simply because when watching anime or the majority of entertainment media somethings just happen and you need to take them at face value, if you really hate the way it was done might as well not watch it in the first place.

From the why things were changed regarding Chisato's character compared to the game where she was worse, for me I think it was a attempt to show that she is not as emotionally dependent thus making whatever resolution they come up with more believable.

On her behavior this episode I think the way she has been coping with her trauma seems relatively simple to overcome by anime standards where magic dust can work. She suppresses the memories of Daiki's accident, which is what most people do in real life, its easier not to think about it, and having to relive the experience is a terrible thing for her and would have put her in shock leading to the clingy behavior. The chocolate ritual was her way to relieve her guilt, and it also reassures her of Yuuki/Daiki's presence in her life which is why we see the reaction at childhood and again why she uses it in the bathroom scene. Its a form of reassurance. In fact most of the trauma is tied down to the little ritual of chocolate therefore removing it a big step in overcoming that trauma as it serves as a link to her past. So for me for her to even try to eat the chocolate in the scene shows that she really wants to overcome that barrier between them and see him as Yuuki rather than Daiki.

Also I think her problem as intended by the writers was to be based around the whole chocolate thing which is why it was so heavily emphasized by the episode. By anime terms its more believable for any healing to be done if its rooted within something arbitrary as a ritual.

Satsuki really won points from the little scene in the club.
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Old 2012-09-15, 08:13   Link #1220
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I agree that she's currently far too emotionally dependant on him. I don't think anyone, even the Chisato fans are denying that since thaat's what the entire issue issue about.

Whether it logically entails that she must spend considerable time away from him is debatable.
When people have an over-dependency on something, the typical and most effective way to try to resolve that is to wean them off of what they have an over-dependency on.

Any addiction is like that, be it addiction to drugs, alcohol, whatever.

Granted, it's a bit different and more complex when a person is essentially addicted to/dependent on another person, but the core approach is the same - The person gets over their addiction/dependency by weaning themselves off of what they are addicted to and dependent on.

Now, that doesn't mean that Chisato and Oojima should never see each other again. But it does mean that they should spend more time apart from one another, and that obviously doesn't jive well with them simultaneously entering into a romance together (and it would have to be simultaneous given how few episodes we have left).


Yes, I fear this anime is walking right into a Taichi Yaegashi-esque five second solution to a lifelong problem, and it's going to seem even worst here than it ever does in Kokoro Connect because Chisato's issues frankly seem more severe to me than the issues that any of the girls in KC have.

This goes beyond shipping preferences for me - This is just seriously bad writing, full-stop. Like you yourself say it will probably be a stupid as hell solution, and the thought that a key element of the main romance of an eroge adaptation involves a stupid as hell solution... Well, that's not exactly something to be happy about, is it?

The fact is this anime could still do a Oojima/Satsuki end without involving a stupid as hell solution. It now seems unlikely given the heavy focus on Chisato as of late, but it would be easier to swallow, imo.

So simply based on a desire for this show to continue to be well-written, I'd take almost anything over Oojima/Chisato at this point.
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