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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 47
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 5 16.67%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 5 16.67%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 5 16.67%
7 out of 10: Good... 8 26.67%
6 out of 10: Average... 5 16.67%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 0 0%
4 out of 10: Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10: Bad... 1 3.33%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 1 3.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-15, 10:06   Link #141
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post

Show me an exact quote where he refers to them as "The Superior Race".
The Vegans views themselves as a superior race. Hence why they curse those in Earth Sphere as those damn Earthers/Earth Race.

It doesn't need to be explicit as it is implied by the thoughts of most of the named Vegan characters Decil, Geera Zoi, Medel Zant, Magicians 8, Zanald and even Zeheart.

Ezelcant is even worse as Zeheart stated he is playing god and wants him to replace Ezelcant.

He wants to create a superior race from the ashes of humanity. In order to do that he played a demagogue to delude the Vegans they are the Ubermench deserving of paradise, the chosen people, and the Earth Spheroids are the Untermensch who they would either exterminate or turn to slaves.

We already saw during the final battle of the second generation Vegans have no qualms of turning colonists to slave labor and human shields. That was Plan A. Failing that they went for Plan B sleeper infiltration.

We have several examples in history and even today where entire countries are filled with propaganda of racial superiority and manifest destiny.

We don't need to hear Ezelcant say it as we can see the end result among his minions.
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Old 2012-09-15, 11:07   Link #142
Revolutionist
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
You just have too narrow of a definition of superiority then - superiority is simply "better than". There's nothing wrong with being morally superior as there are many case where such positions can be rightfully justified (for example most rational people would consider themselves morally superior to others who discriminate via sex or race, which today would be a perfectly justifiable morally superior stance to take). In history a lot of people have wage wars (and some case led to horrible horrible ethnic cleaning) on what they perceive as "savages" with this exact reason (such as during the colonial times). Rightfully or wrongly, the Vagan is using a superiority argument to do just that as you yourself have pointed out - they look at the Earthnoids as a sort of "savages" while they, the Vagans, are the enlighten (thus morally superior) ones.

Also the Vagan military consider themselves to be more physically powerful as ReddyRedWolf pointed out, and again invaders don't usually invade when they think of themselves as physically weaker than those they are attacking.



What straw man? Do you even know what straw man means, Revolutionist? The argument here is that the Vagans did view themselves as a superior race thus wage war. Is morally superior not a form of superiority? Them viewing the Earthnoid as cruel/ignorant is prove that they are using their moral superiority as a different race to Earthnoids to justification their cause to wage war against them.

If anything you should be directing your argument towards Denger, as he's the one that is thinking that moral superiority doesn't constitute as a form of "superiority". Denger pointed out that the Vagans look at Earthnoids as being cruel/ignorant, the quote by me you high lighted was my rhetorical question to how that is not a form of one considering themselves as superior.
you distorted his argument, and then "refuted" your version, not his and not very well either I might add...
yup, sounds like a straw man to me.
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Old 2012-09-15, 11:35   Link #143
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
The Vegans views themselves as a superior race. Hence why they curse those in Earth Sphere as those damn Earthers/Earth Race.

It doesn't need to be explicit as it is implied by the thoughts of most of the named Vegan characters Decil, Geera Zoi, Medel Zant, Magicians 8, Zanald and even Zeheart.

Ezelcant is even worse as Zeheart stated he is playing god and wants him to replace Ezelcant.

He wants to create a superior race from the ashes of humanity. In order to do that he played a demagogue to delude the Vegans they are the Ubermench deserving of paradise, the chosen people, and the Earth Spheroids are the Untermensch who they would either exterminate or turn to slaves.

We already saw during the final battle of the second generation Vegans have no qualms of turning colonists to slave labor and human shields. That was Plan A. Failing that they went for Plan B sleeper infiltration.

We have several examples in history and even today where entire countries are filled with propaganda of racial superiority and manifest destiny.

We don't need to hear Ezelcant say it as we can see the end result among his minions.
I'm still missing any direct quotes. The only thing you've been saying is that the superior race doesn't actually exist yet.
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Old 2012-09-15, 14:15   Link #144
ReddyRedWolf
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I'm still missing any direct quotes. The only thing you've been saying is that the superior race doesn't actually exist yet.
You are playing dumb as if you haven't watch the show itself.

Hell in 29 even Elzecant calls them Earth Race declaring its invasion. It's been a derogatory word since the end of generation one. It is the equivalent of calling a native person an Indio in Spanish. A racist insult.

I don't know either you don't understand what is talked about here or pretend not to. Having your own definition of superiority out of the context of what is being discussed. It isn't traits we are discussing but ideology. A poisoned form of nationalism.

To put it into simple terms. Those with superiority complex like the Vegans are bullies that pick on the weak. Bullies prey on those weaker than them to inflate their own ego. And because they can do so.

What have we seen in all generations. Vegan military all target defenseless civilians first. Showing no compassion or regret.
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Old 2012-09-15, 14:59   Link #145
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You are playing dumb as if you haven't watch the show itself.

Hell in 29 even Elzecant calls them Earth Race declaring its invasion. It's been a derogatory word since the end of generation one. It is the equivalent of calling a native person an Indio in Spanish. A racist insult.

I don't know either you don't understand what is talked about here or pretend not to. Having your own definition of superiority out of the context of what is being discussed. It isn't traits we are discussing but ideology. A poisoned form of nationalism.

To put it into simple terms. Those with superiority complex like the Vegans are bullies that pick on the weak. Bullies prey on those weaker than them to inflate their own ego. And because they can do so.

What have we seen in all generations. Vegan military all target defenseless civilians first. Showing no compassion or regret.
And you keep dodging the issue while still not providing any direct quotes where it is clear that Vegans view themselves as superior. And stop using labels such as "superiority complex". It's degrading. And generalizing. An entire race with the same complex? Who's the racist now?
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Old 2012-09-15, 20:52   Link #146
RES-01 Perses Gundam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
What have we seen in all generations. Vegan military all target defenseless civilians first. Showing no compassion or regret.
Apologies, it's not as if the Vagans attack them indiscriminately without a motive. Ezelcant admitted himself that it was all for Project Eden, to weed out the weak and create a resilient new human race. You don't seem to understand the ends justify the means right?

By the way, while the Vagan leadership condones such atrocities, not every single Vagan soldier agree with them. They are just doing their work, fighting a war in which the massarces of defenseless civilians are like pickpocket incidents - i.e. commonplace. I don't like how you deningrate the entire Vagan military, which composes of human with human feelings just like you are.
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Old 2012-09-15, 21:05   Link #147
monster
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Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam View Post
By the way, while the Vagan leadership condones such atrocities, not every single Vagan soldier agree with them. They are just doing their work, fighting a war in which the massarces of defenseless civilians are like pickpocket incidents - i.e. commonplace.
You say that as if both sides are targeting civilians. As far as I know, up to this point in the show, Federation civilians are the only ones shown being massacred. If it is commonplace, it is only because the Vagans made it so.
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Old 2012-09-15, 21:26   Link #148
RES-01 Perses Gundam
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
You say that as if both sides are targeting civilians. As far as I know, up to this point in the show, Federation civilians are the only ones shown being massacred. If it is commonplace, it is only because the Vagans made it so.
The context of the war made it so. You can hardly expect the Feddies to attack Vagan civilians if they have to travel light years to do so.

I'm just saying that it is unfair to call the Vagans "evil" on account of the massarces they have performed when such atrocities are part and parcel of many major conflict.
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Old 2012-09-15, 21:46   Link #149
monster
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Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam View Post
The context of the war made it so. You can hardly expect the Feddies to attack Vagan civilians if they have to travel light years to do so.
That still doesn't explain the need to attack Federation civilians. Of course, we now know it's part of Ezelcant's Project Eden. But from the Vagan's perspective of trying to take back Earth, focusing their attacks on military strongholds would've been a more efficient method.
Quote:
I'm just saying that it is unfair to call the Vagans "evil" on account of the massarces they have performed when such atrocities are part and parcel of many major conflict.
One might argue that starting a war is evil enough.
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Old 2012-09-15, 23:39   Link #150
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
And you keep dodging the issue while still not providing any direct quotes where it is clear that Vegans view themselves as superior. And stop using labels such as "superiority complex". It's degrading. And generalizing. An entire race with the same complex? Who's the racist now?
Dengar you are moving goal posts again. This is what you do when you can't argue adequately.

Goodness even Revolutionist called you on it once.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:26   Link #151
RES-01 Perses Gundam
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
That still doesn't explain the need to attack Federation civilians. Of course, we now know it's part of Ezelcant's Project Eden. But from the Vagan's perspective of trying to take back Earth, focusing their attacks on military strongholds would've been a more efficient method. One might argue that starting a war is evil enough.
Fair enough, certain Vagan attacks on civilians were unwarranted.

It depends on our subjective, biased definition of evil. If you ask me, evil is a term exclusive to peacetime, where the distinction regarding evilness is generally clear, governed by laws and institutions. In times of strife, I don't know anymore.
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Old 2012-09-16, 01:05   Link #152
monster
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Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam View Post
If you ask me, evil is a term exclusive to peacetime
Then consider this: the Vagans willingly caused the deaths of people during a time of relative peace in the Earth sphere.
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Old 2012-09-16, 01:10   Link #153
houkoholic
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
you distorted his argument, and then "refuted" your version, not his and not very well either I might add...
yup, sounds like a straw man to me.
right, below are the EXACT quotes, show me the straw man, Revolutionist. I'm waiting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
It's because earthers are cruel and/or ignorant. Being stronger/smarter has nothing to do with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
When you consider your opponents to be cruel and/or ignorant that means you deem yourself to be less cruel/not ignorant - ie you think you are BETTER than your opponent and won't be doing what they do, how is that not thinking yourself to be superior?
Dengar had a narrow (and arguably wrong) definition of "superiority" which he only includes physical strengths - which both ME and YOU yourself have pointed that in other cases moral superiority is a valid reason where people wage war, that is not a straw man, but Dengar started off with the wrong definition of "superiority" in the first place. Also again as the aggressors the Vagan *must* think they are also physically superior so even by Dengar's narrow definition he is wrong. Again if anything you should be saying "straw man" to Dengar first.
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Old 2012-09-16, 04:30   Link #154
Dengar
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Dengar you are moving goal posts again. This is what you do when you can't argue adequately.

Goodness even Revolutionist called you on it once.
When you can't even answer a simple question you start making personal attacks.
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