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Old 2012-09-16, 00:00   Link #241
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
Personally I'm disappointed that they skipped the conversation with the tree guy, and the initial meeting at the church.
I get the impression that they might just be switching the order of events around to let the episode end on a cliffhanger. I wouldn't bet on it or anything, but rearranging things to end where they did makes some sense to me. They also rearranged the order of events in the beginning of the episode, putting the ghost story after the part where they walk around. Simply because it makes more sense to have it immediately before they meet her.
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Old 2012-09-16, 09:50   Link #242
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
All valid points above, Aphrah, and I actually agreee with most of what you're saying.

Regards canon, there are two forms of interpretation: one is following Star Wars Expanded Universe, and the other is the Sunrise method. SW EU considers all published works relating to Star Wars to have varying degrees of canon; the movies are Gold level, novels are silver-level (meaning pretty much canon, but things can be retconned later). This sorta works because there's a canon/continuity team that tries to check details in whatever novels that are published.

Sunrise follows a different interpretation, which is whatever is actually animated is canon, and novels are "official" but not canon; for instance, the Mobile Suit Gundam novel actually ends with Amuro dead, as opposed to the series where he survives (to die 13 years later . UC. Born to die.) - so following this interpretation, the only things that are canon are the anime episodes.

I've chosen to interpret following the SW EU method, where whatever is published is canon - that said, has SAO remained web novel only, and we were discussing the web novel, I agree 16.5 woulda been canon. Once it moved from a web novel to published LN, however, 16.5 no longer became canon.

To fall back on my legal training, the light novels are binding precedent, which is true and correct and must be followed. 16.5 is persuasive, meaning that it's very convincing if you use it to support your argument, but doesn't have the full weight the rest of the LN has.

tl;dr: Strict interpretation, 16.5 is not canon, however it is persuasive and I personally believe it actually did happen, given who we're talking about And that's the trouble with SAO - this is a series that rewards observation, which is something most anime viewers these days are incapable of doing.

...man, I feel so old.
But who says that we have to stick to those two forms of interpretation? I'm asking because I really don't know. For me, everything that the author intended to be part of the story is canon.

And, aye. It seems to be because people aren't used to 'show, don't tell' stories. You gotta pay more attention in such cases.
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Old 2012-09-16, 09:58   Link #243
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Originally Posted by Aphrah View Post
But who says that we have to stick to those two forms of interpretation? I'm asking because I really don't know. For me, everything that the author intended to be part of the story is canon.

And, aye. It seems to be because people aren't used to 'show, don't tell' stories. You gotta pay more attention in such cases.
There's two ways of looking at it - one is to see the author's intent (which is what you're following) and the other is to deny the author's intent and view what is present.

As a whole, I admit it's a bit iffy. The simplest way of solving canon debates, IMO, is to just stick to what has been published as canon - and yes, I note that this disregards author's intent. The other issue is that we have no sure way of knowing the author's intent if the author does not speak... on the other hand, if the author maintains steady engagement with the fans, and we can discern the author's intent straight from the horses mouth, then that form of interpretation is just as valid.

But we're going around in circles, really. While the specific mechanics of what went on that night probably won't have any official canon source, to sum up Kirito and Asuna expressed their love for each other and connected on a physical and emotional level that night. The details don't really matter, at the end of the day.

Y'know, this has been the most pleasant discussion on interpreting canon that I've ever had with anyone.
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Old 2012-09-16, 10:37   Link #244
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
The simplest way of solving canon debates, IMO, is to just stick to what has been published as canon
The simplest way of solving canon debates is not to engage in them in the first place.
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Old 2012-09-16, 10:43   Link #245
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Well, that too, but I didn't start 'em. That said, this is less a debate and more a discussion on the approaches to interpretation... Probably because we both agree that Kirito and Aduna expressed their love for each other and formed a deeper emotional and physical connection accompanied by strenuous, yet enjoyable, physical activity and stimulation.

I'm just splitting hairs between accepting that 16.5 happened and affirming my personal belief that it did happen. In law, it's the difference between binding precedent and a persuasive argument; Vol 1-10 are binding precedent, while 16.5 is a persuasive argument.
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Old 2012-09-16, 10:53   Link #246
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
There's two ways of looking at it - one is to see the author's intent (which is what you're following) and the other is to deny the author's intent and view what is present.

As a whole, I admit it's a bit iffy. The simplest way of solving canon debates, IMO, is to just stick to what has been published as canon - and yes, I note that this disregards author's intent. The other issue is that we have no sure way of knowing the author's intent if the author does not speak... on the other hand, if the author maintains steady engagement with the fans, and we can discern the author's intent straight from the horses mouth, then that form of interpretation is just as valid.

But we're going around in circles, really. While the specific mechanics of what went on that night probably won't have any official canon source, to sum up Kirito and Asuna expressed their love for each other and connected on a physical and emotional level that night. The details don't really matter, at the end of the day.

Y'know, this has been the most pleasant discussion on interpreting canon that I've ever had with anyone.
Hm, why not just do both? But ah, I guess that'd be really iffy indeed..

Ah, I see where you're coming from now. Well, the Reki does tweet quite a bit about SAO and AW.. but I don't think we'll ever hear him say anything about 16.5. Oh well.

Well said.

Heh, it's more fun to have discussions instead of arguments/debates over about or over such things.
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Old 2012-09-16, 13:42   Link #247
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How are they going to finish the SAO arc before the 13th episode, now that the morning dew girl arc is taking up more than 1 episode 0_o?
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Old 2012-09-16, 13:48   Link #248
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How are they going to finish the SAO arc before the 13th episode, now that the morning dew girl arc is taking up more than 1 episode 0_o?
The anime has 25 episodes.
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Old 2012-09-16, 13:48   Link #249
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They aren't. Episode 14 is the end. Of Aincrad, that is.

That said, boss 75 got skipped over in favor of Kayaba, so I figure 13 starts with the boss, scene break, kayaba reveal then fight.
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Old 2012-09-16, 13:51   Link #250
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Originally Posted by lansglenn View Post
How are they going to finish the SAO arc before the 13th episode, now that the morning dew girl arc is taking up more than 1 episode 0_o?
Why would they have to finish the SAO arc before episode 13? It seems episode 14 will be the end of the SOA arc btw.
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Old 2012-09-16, 13:51   Link #251
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
They aren't. Episode 14 is the end. Of Aincrad, that is.

That said, boss 75 got skipped over in favor of Kayaba, so I figure 13 starts with the boss, scene break, kayaba reveal then fight.
what do you mean boss 75 got skipped over in favor of Kayaba? They will fight him at the end.
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Old 2012-09-16, 13:54   Link #252
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In the novel, they show boss 75 one shotting the clearers. Then the next chapter cuts to the end of the battle, at which point Kayaba is revealed and the duel happens.

The anime, following the novel, will skip the boss 75 fight after the intro, and jump tp the reveal.
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Old 2012-09-16, 13:56   Link #253
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
In the novel, they show boss 75 one shotting the clearers. Then the next chapter cuts to the end of the battle.
I don't think it was "skipped over". It was just a long battle where nothing much happened. The tension was supposed be in how exhausting it was, rather than any sudden surprises.
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Old 2012-09-16, 13:58   Link #254
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When is the fight between Laughing Coffin and the others going to happen?
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Old 2012-09-16, 13:59   Link #255
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
In the novel, they show boss 75 one shotting the clearers. Then the next chapter cuts to the end of the battle.
I see. Seems I forgot that part. To bad they removed it, it it would have been good build up/foreshadowing to the final boss fight.

I hope that if SAO gets a second season it will have a slower pace and they won't skip as much.

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When is the fight between Laughing Coffin and the others going to happen?
It has already happened chronology-wise.
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Old 2012-09-16, 16:04   Link #256
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I get the impression that they might just be switching the order of events around to let the episode end on a cliffhanger. I wouldn't bet on it or anything, but rearranging things to end where they did makes some sense to me. They also rearranged the order of events in the beginning of the episode, putting the ghost story after the part where they walk around. Simply because it makes more sense to have it immediately before they meet her.
Unlikely. I don't see how they could properly shoehorn in the conversation with the tree guy while going to the church with a Yui that just had a fit and passed out. Likewise the initial meeting at the church would be drastically changed if they tried to fit it in now, as Kirito and Asuna have already met Sasha and would be arriving back at the church with her and several kids. So the whole scene with them finding the church empty, Kirito noting that there were a bunch of people hiding in rooms, convincing them to come out, and showing them their spare weapons to prove that yes, they are warriors, is pretty much doomed.

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Originally Posted by Aphrah View Post
Ah, I see where you're coming from now. Well, the Reki does tweet quite a bit about SAO and AW.. but I don't think we'll ever hear him say anything about 16.5. Oh well.
16.5 likely falls under "embarrassing things you do when you're young that you really wish people would completely forget about, but it just happens to be memorable enough that they won't."

Quote:
Originally Posted by lansglenn View Post
How are they going to finish the SAO arc before the 13th episode, now that the morning dew girl arc is taking up more than 1 episode 0_o?
They aren't. It's going to go through at least episode 14, and possibly some of 15 as well.
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Old 2012-09-16, 16:16   Link #257
Clarste
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Unlikely. I don't see how they could properly shoehorn in the conversation with the tree guy while going to the church with a Yui that just had a fit and passed out. Likewise the initial meeting at the church would be drastically changed if they tried to fit it in now, as Kirito and Asuna have already met Sasha and would be arriving back at the church with her and several kids. So the whole scene with them finding the church empty, Kirito noting that there were a bunch of people hiding in rooms, convincing them to come out, and showing them their spa
The church intro is one thing, but the tree guy could easily be done in the context of "investigating the state of the Starting City". The rest of the story is basically about them freeing the city from the tyranny of a corrupt army, so showing how poor the lives of the people here are serves a relevant role. It doesn't need to follow things scene-by-scene. We've already seen the writers willing to completely change things in some of the earlier stories.
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Old 2012-09-22, 23:50   Link #258
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Ep12:

I expected those two to return to the front lines at the end of this arc. But they just simply returned home, following the LN.

Guess we'll see fishing arc after all?
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Old 2012-09-23, 01:36   Link #259
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Didn't see the end of this ss, but what we got was good enough so I won't complain too much. Also, nice touch with Sinker and Yuriel holding hands.

Also, Yui's Heart
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Old 2012-09-23, 10:19   Link #260
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Originally Posted by Divini View Post
Ep12:

I expected those two to return to the front lines at the end of this arc. But they just simply returned home, following the LN.

Guess we'll see fishing arc after all?
We saw the fisherman last episode, so if they went through the trouble of designing the character they might as well throw him in. Plus, they need something for the first half of the episode so they can end on "Immortal Object".
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