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Old 2012-09-15, 06:15   Link #461
Mr. DJ
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So Obama is criticized for "apologizing" for the attacks...but when Romney does the same thing, it's okay.

*sigh*

Anti-Muslim film was dispiriting and wrong
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Old 2012-09-15, 06:21   Link #462
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Well you see he's now pandering to a different group. The issue is when the groups notice that he said one thing but immediately said another when the other was, hopefully, not paying attention. the least he could do is apologize for what he said earlier since he has changed his stance on an issue yet again.
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Old 2012-09-15, 06:21   Link #463
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Quite honestly, considering the catastrophic baggage Bush admin left at the door when Obama took the house, he's coping rather well.

GOP likes to criticize the current administrations for all the damage their neo-con bros did and left with him.
Obama would have to be a miracle worker to not have catastrophic numbers to work with.
In fact, one suspects the reason Romney was the GOP candidate was because all the REAL GOP candidates still don't want to be POTUS yet. They believe rightly that there are still mess to clean up, and they don't want to deal with it until Obama finished his work.

This is because the destructive Republican policies means that even if they beat Obama, they would have inherited the mess they created in trying to kick him out.
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Old 2012-09-15, 09:47   Link #464
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post

This is because the destructive Republican policies means that even if they beat Obama, they would have inherited the mess they created in trying to kick him out.
Yup because it is all the fault of Republican policies.

I mean it is not like Democrats took over the House of Representatives and the Senate on Jan. 3, 2007, Barney Frank took over the House Financial Services Committee and Chris Dodd took over the Senate Banking Committee, and the meltdown that happened 15 months later was part of banking and financial services. Heck for how much jobs seems to be a huge selling point for Obama what about after the Bush administration tax cuts, there were 52 months of continuous job creation, which is the largest such period in american history.

We can point fingers all we want, but this recession has been a long time coming even before Bush and Obama, through policies by both parties going back to even Jimmy Carter. Bush and the current Obama presidency are basically responsible for continuing it beyond anything reasonable.

What it comes down to is: the current President will blame the last unfriendly administration for current economic problems. The current President will also take credit for everything good that happens on his watch. When it's election time, the candidates will say how much better things will be on their watch, and that the current President is playing the "blame game" by shifting the blame for everything bad onto the previous administration.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
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Old 2012-09-15, 10:08   Link #465
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Yup because it is all the fault of Republican policies.
Nope.
I am saying GOP had being doing their best to make things worse. But because of that all of their traditional candidates refused to participate in this year's election.

Please, I am no Dem apologist. But from the outside I can clearly see the GOP is currently not in any position to govern. Maybe when the GOP start taking their "fiscal conservative" platform seriously, I would give them a second glance. There is no reason to give the Republicans the time of day when they don't even follow their own political platform.
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Old 2012-09-15, 23:57   Link #466
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Yup because it is all the fault of Republican policies.

I mean it is not like Democrats took over the House of Representatives and the Senate on Jan. 3, 2007, Barney Frank took over the House Financial Services Committee and Chris Dodd took over the Senate Banking Committee, and the meltdown that happened 15 months later was part of banking and financial services. Heck for how much jobs seems to be a huge selling point for Obama what about after the Bush administration tax cuts, there were 52 months of continuous job creation, which is the largest such period in american history.

We can point fingers all we want, but this recession has been a long time coming even before Bush and Obama, through policies by both parties going back to even Jimmy Carter. Bush and the current Obama presidency are basically responsible for continuing it beyond anything reasonable.

What it comes down to is: the current President will blame the last unfriendly administration for current economic problems. The current President will also take credit for everything good that happens on his watch. When it's election time, the candidates will say how much better things will be on their watch, and that the current President is playing the "blame game" by shifting the blame for everything bad onto the previous administration.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
Like VCV, I'm no dem apologist either. The dems had some part in the mess Obama inherited in early 2009. The GOP certainly added so much to that mess though, especially with two incredibly costly (not just money; humans lives and trauma) wars that were started with no good exit plans. I also hear those Bush tax cuts have added quite a lot to our national debt. But also, what you talked about in your last paragraph, well, things in Obama's first term isn't business as usual. I mean, we have America in turmoil in late 2008 when Obama is elected, and then, as VCV put it, we have the GOP doing the whole "crash the country and blame Obama" strategy they've been using for nearly four years now. Sure, the dems have added to our nations problems before Obama was elected, and sure, the dems haven't been perfect in their job under Obama, but who helped contribute more to the mess Obama was handed, and who isn't even trying to help deal with the mess; who are, in fact, even helping the mess remain and fester? That's right, the GOP.

For anyone who realizes what the GOP has become, it isn't a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils this November. It is a no-brainer who should be president come this November. Like VCV says, the GOP just shouldn't govern the country at this point. How can people want them in power when they first crashed the country, and then, they continue to thrash the country for about four years so that they can attempt to get back into power in 2012? How do so many Americans not see how fucking crazy and unethical that is (the italicized part)?
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:06   Link #467
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Like VCV, I'm no dem apologist either. The dems had some part in the mess Obama inherited in early 2009. The GOP certainly added so much to that mess though, especially with two incredibly costly (not just money; humans lives and trauma) wars that were started with no good exit plans. I also hear those Bush tax cuts have added quite a lot to our national debt. But also, what you talked about in your last paragraph, well, things in Obama's first term isn't business as usual. I mean, we have America in turmoil in late 2008 when Obama is elected, and then, as VCV put it, we have the GOP doing the whole "crash the country and blame Obama" strategy they've been using for nearly four years now. Sure, the dems have added to our nations problems before Obama was elected, and sure, the dems haven't been perfect in their job under Obama, but who helped contribute more to the mess Obama was handed, and who isn't even trying to help deal with the mess, in fact is even helping the mess remain and fester? That's right, the GOP.
Do not disagree, was merely pointing out it wasn't as cut and dry through my misunderstanding of where VCV stood on things. My mistake.

Either way I still find myself cringing at both candidates and as I said before feels like I have to pick the lesser of two evils, which would be Obama (as much as I hate to admit). Yes the GOP has become by far the worst of the two sides, but I really don't care for the Democrat side either. Honestly I'll probably just end up voting for a third party candidate since I feel better about half of them compared to the main two. I just can't feel good about voting for either Romney or Obama.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:14   Link #468
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Do not disagree, was merely pointing out it wasn't as cut and dry through my misunderstanding of where VCV stood on things. My mistake.

Either way I still find myself cringing at both candidates and as I said before feels like I have to pick the lesser of two evils, which would probably be Obama (as much as I hate to admit). Honestly I'll probably just end up voting for a third party candidate since I feel better about half of them compared to the main two. I just can't feel good about voting for either Romney or Obama.
For many years, Americans have been saying voting for a president is choosing the lesser of two evils. Definitely was the case in 2004. I voted Kerry, not like I really wanted him to be president, but I didn't feel the Bush admin deserved a round two. In 2008, I was upset with how the GOP had been handling things for years leading up to the 2008 election season, but I was giving McCain a chance and heard what he had to say in debates. Didn't vote for him, but gave him a chance. But this 2012 election? I'm not even considering the GOP at all. They went in decline from 2001 to 2008, but they've been in steep decline from late 2008 to today. Very steep decline. It has been a lot of decline for a political party in a matter of about 11-12 years.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:16   Link #469
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Do not disagree, was merely pointing out it wasn't as cut and dry through my misunderstanding of where VCV stood on things. My mistake.

Either way I still find myself cringing at both candidates and as I said before feels like I have to pick the lesser of two evils, which would be Obama (as much as I hate to admit). Yes the GOP has become by far the worst of the two sides, but I really don't care for the Democrat side either. Honestly I'll probably just end up voting for a third party candidate since I feel better about half of them compared to the main two. I just can't feel good about voting for either Romney or Obama.
See, had the GOP stuck to their original founding principles and followed true fiscal conservatism, they would have been a valid threat that would force Dems to do better.

As PBS Newshour pointed out, Romney's weaknesses means that Obama couldn't be judged properly.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:23   Link #470
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
As PBS Newshour pointed out, Romney's weaknesses means that Obama couldn't be judged properly.
Exactly. Obama is certainly not a bad candidate, but we aren't sure if he's a good one.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:30   Link #471
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Do not disagree, was merely pointing out it wasn't as cut and dry through my misunderstanding of where VCV stood on things. My mistake.

Either way I still find myself cringing at both candidates and as I said before feels like I have to pick the lesser of two evils, which would be Obama (as much as I hate to admit). Yes the GOP has become by far the worst of the two sides, but I really don't care for the Democrat side either. Honestly I'll probably just end up voting for a third party candidate since I feel better about half of them compared to the main two. I just can't feel good about voting for either Romney or Obama.
I find myself in more-or-less in the same posiition, although I cannot vote for Obama due to his "Fast and Furious" debacle, among many other things (NDAA, SOPA/PIPA, continuing Patriot Act, DHS closing down websites, TSA gropping, Arab Spring that is now coming to fruition, expanding the debt, etc.).

That said, I cannot and will not vote for Rominey. He is no different than Obama, I don't care what the Obamanoids try to claim, Obama and Rominey have very similar outlooks on foreign, economic, and domestic policies. Rominey is talking like a conservative now, but he didn't govern that way in Mass. He's a left-wing Republican of the corporatist wing of the GOP.

I've chosen to vote for Garry Johnson, not saying you should vote for him, but at least give his website a look-see.
http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/front

As for blame, both the Dems and the Republicans voted FOR the invasion of Iraq, and the war in Afghanistan, and expanding government power far beyond what the constitution allows.
They can point fingers at each other all they want, but BOTH parties are responsible and voting for either of them is voting for the military industrial complex's continued take over of the United States.
That's something I simply will not vote for.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:40   Link #472
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I find myself in more-or-less in the same posiition, although I cannot vote for Obama due to his "Fast and Furious" debacle, among many other things (NDAA, SOPA/PIPA, continuing Patriot Act, DHS closing down websites, TSA gropping, Arab Spring that is now coming to fruition, expanding the debt, etc.).

That said, I cannot and will not vote for Rominey. He is no different than Obama, I don't care what the Obamanoids try to claim, Obama and Rominey have very similar outlooks on foreign, economic, and domestic policies. Rominey is talking like a conservative now, but he didn't govern that way in Mass. He's a left-wing Republican of the corporatist wing of the GOP.

I've chosen to vote for Garry Johnson, not saying you should vote for him, but at least give his website a look-see.
http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/front

As for blame, both the Dems and the Republicans voted FOR the invasion of Iraq, and the war in Afghanistan, and expanding government power far beyond what the constitution allows.
They can point fingers at each other all they want, but BOTH parties are responsible and voting for either of them is voting for the military industrial complex's continued take over of the United States.
That's something I simply will not vote for.
You make some good points.

I've been typing a lot for multiple responses tonight, and I'm reminded of something I already know, but on so many issues that are up for debate, there is just so much complexity and depth to them, and the root of issues are so often not focused and concise, but rather large in number and spread out.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:50   Link #473
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I've chosen to vote for Garry Johnson, not saying you should vote for him, but at least give his website a look-see.
http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/front
Oh I'm well aware of Gary and he is in fact the one I've been most leaning towards as of late.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
He is no different than Obama, I don't care what the Obamanoids try to claim, Obama and Rominey have very similar outlooks on foreign, economic, and domestic policies.
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Old 2012-09-16, 14:29   Link #474
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Mitt Romney’s confession
By Editorial Board, Published
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...4e1_print.html
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Old 2012-09-16, 19:51   Link #475
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In my mind between Obama and Romeny it is like choosing the lesser of two evils. The country will still be in bad shape and won't improve all that much through whomever's term.
I think this is a point that many people don't want to accept. The president can have an impact on certain areas of society, but one man won't make or break America. Is it Obama's fault that the economy isn't doing great? There's a world-wide recession, various policies and trends have added up over many years to get us here, and other arms of our government have a say in what goes on: very little of this has to do with Obama. Is it Obama's fault that many Muslims hold negative sentiment against America? We've militarily meddled in the affairs of many Middle Eastern nations since before I was born, and we also state strong support for Israel: very little of this has to do with Obama.

It's not just about placing blame; it's frightening to think that Obama might not have anything to do with these events. It's scary because it means that whoever replaces Obama will be powerless over them, as well. As people who vote these people into power, that makes us powerless, as well. Thanks to the conveniences of technology and scientific advancement, people have become used to the idea that we're able to control almost everything in the world. It's terribly unnerving to realize that there are still many things that we can't do anything about.
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Old 2012-09-16, 19:55   Link #476
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^I honestly don't care who is President for a great many issues currently at hand (Congress can help prevent a President's bad decisions...most of the time), but I will vote for Obama purely because the President's veto power is still great and I do not trust any Republican or Conservative candidate to replace Supreme Court Justices.
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Old 2012-09-16, 20:02   Link #477
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but one man won't make or break America.
Depends on the man and the situation surrounding him.

The Confederacy decided to break away because Lincoln was elected President. They didn't even wait for him to get into office. They believed he would end their institution of slavery against their rights as State governements to hold that sort of power. In truth, Lincoln said that he would be anything to perserve the Union. If that meant freeing all the slaves, he would do it, but if that meant freeing none of the slaves, or even some slaves would go free while others remained slaves...he would do that too. Anything to keep the country whole. They didn't even give him the chance to make that choice.
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Old 2012-09-16, 20:24   Link #478
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Supreme Court Justices .... do you want more Scalia's? That *should* scare the crap out of anyone who isn't a zealot or corporatist.
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Old 2012-09-16, 20:26   Link #479
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Depends on the man and the situation surrounding him.

The Confederacy decided to break away because Lincoln was elected President. They didn't even wait for him to get into office. They believed he would end their institution of slavery against their rights as State governements to hold that sort of power. In truth, Lincoln said that he would be anything to perserve the Union. If that meant freeing all the slaves, he would do it, but if that meant freeing none of the slaves, or even some slaves would go free while others remained slaves...he would do that too. Anything to keep the country whole. They didn't even give him the chance to make that choice.
For the sake of argument, I would say that the splitting of the United States was due to the actions of many. Lincoln's election may have been the catalyst, but did Lincoln himself cause the fissure? His views pushed people away and made them feel compelled to act, but it was their actions - not his - that caused the split.

I'm not trying to say that the president has no power or influence over society. When it comes to social issues, such as abortion and "gay marriage," the person in power is certainly important. But what about the things that people like to blame the president for? Gas prices, unemployment, attacks from foreign nationals... the president really has little direct power over these things. Again, he (or she) is not powerless, but it's pure fantasy to think that we could replace Obama with someone else and that America would immediately experience a golden age of prosperity and gas at even $2 per gallon.
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Old 2012-09-17, 02:49   Link #480
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Depends on the man and the situation surrounding him.

The Confederacy decided to break away because Lincoln was elected President. They didn't even wait for him to get into office. They believed he would end their institution of slavery against their rights as State governements to hold that sort of power. In truth, Lincoln said that he would be anything to perserve the Union. If that meant freeing all the slaves, he would do it, but if that meant freeing none of the slaves, or even some slaves would go free while others remained slaves...he would do that too. Anything to keep the country whole. They didn't even give him the chance to make that choice.
Sounds familiar. Reminds of that time this guy got elected and some 'tea posse' flipped shit before he even took office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Again, he (or she) is not powerless, but it's pure fantasy to think that we could replace Obama with someone else and that America would immediately experience a golden age of prosperity and gas at even $2 per gallon.
I'm sure for a lot of people, the mentality is "Replace the black man and everything will be better automatically".
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