Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[Ascaloth]

I have never felt as justified in taking a dim view of the mainland Chinese as I did the last few days. And this is including the time when one tried to steal my girlfriend.

Yes, I am also an ethnic Chinese, just in case anyone is about to throw the 'racist' accusation at me.

And yes, I realise this is taking me down a most unsavoury train of thought.

Yes, I also realise I'm going to get some rage and negreps over this. Just give it here already if you really have to.

But this here? This here, amongst many other instances of unsavoury behaviour by the mainland Chinese, is why I want to avoid being associated with them as much as is possible. This sort of irrational, destructive nationalist sentiment is so last century, and is not going to help matters any.

[Vanish]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Due to ethnic Chinese being the largest population in the world, this is how we differentiate the assholes of our race with the moderate nice-ones. This is called being specific and there isn't anything wrong with that.

I am supposed to be considered ethnic Chinese (/w diluted Malay blood), but I don't mind those insults being thrown because due to the fact that it is those dungballs that look like us doing all these crap; more often than not gently talking to those "xenophobics" and "racists" over here and telling him that you are a local on his/her side would result in an apology.

Actually you're quite right but I do believe there's always room for improvement.

This is where we have to agree to disagree because I do mind the insults. I understand why people would call out on me, and I have to accept the fact that some people are just like that and I also usually take it with humor, but at the end of the day I simply do mind. I don't go emo or hate on anyone for it but I just don't find it good and I mostly mean those that would not apologize after you gently talked to them. And most my cases did not end up with an apology so I guess I got the short end of the stick.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Not going to add anymore fuel to the fire here except to point out....


The Japan and PRC patrol craft bear very similar markings....I wonder what's the reason for that...

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Integration here is pretty into it because all of us guys serve NS - we mix with almost everyone else from another race and literally eat, sleep, bathe and suffer for 2 years together. Although there are a few isolated cases of "racism" (an all Malay gang beating up two Chinese guys for staring, all Singapore citizens), we do actually get along fine.

And like the general sentiment of HK, TW, IDN, PH and MY Chinese, we don't exactly like mainlanders because they bring their culture of hardcore darwinism here and expect us to follow as "China is a whole lot fucking bigger than your little speck on Earth".

And who would I refer myself as? I'll just quote Bruce Lee when asked if he sees himself as a Chinese or American :



Though in this case I feel that blasting these greedy assholes is a duty as a human being despite being removed multiple times.

Is not just conscription actually....pretty much 97% of chinese are born here....with everyone brainwashed into a "ME ME ME, MONEY MONEY MONEY" working mindset....thus no one actually cares two shits about what goes on up north except "don't start shooting now or my bloody portfolio investments are sunk too"

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vanish

Actually you're quite right but I do believe there's always room for improvement.

The problem is - when a person sees himself on a moral high ground, do you think he will listen to suggestions for "improvement"?

This is where we have to agree to disagree because I do mind the insults. I understand why people would call out on me, and I have to accept the fact that some people are just like that and I also usually take it with humor, but at the end of the day I simply do mind. I don't go emo or hate on anyone for it but I just don't find it good and I mostly mean those that would not apologize after you gently talked to them. And most my cases did not end up with an apology so I guess I got the short end of the stick.

It depends where you are from actually. In SEA we have different races mixed and matched over and over again that I would say the local Chinese here don't exactly consider themselves to be "pure" Chinese in terms of culture, therefore we are more tolerant to other people from other races, even the ang mohs (red-heads, slang term for Westerners). In places like US where xenophobia runs high, not much can be done.

Heck, we are even desensitised to racist jokes : there is this 3rd gen angmoh I served with who called one of the laziest people in my unit a "chink in our defence line" for sleeping on guard duty, and that guy casually replied that "the white man gives us away under the cover of darkness and is a waste of camo paint". It eventually "degenerated" into a humourous exchange of racial slurs (the black Indian guy not needing camo paint, the Malay guy needing to avoid wild boars, etc) then made all of us laugh into the night (and having the whole squad signing extras).

Race maybe yes, but most I have met (even those from Mainland who have been here for years) say that they feel "ashamed" to be a Chinese when a loudmouthed mainlander espouses the superiority of the "Chinese race".

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

I wrote something quite long, only to lose them because of the bad connection. But the whole point is "those idiots does not represents China".

Which China? They certainly do represent the type of PRC citizens that the CCP needs to maintain power, and also a manifesting of the traditional Sinocentric arrogance combined with self-victimization.

[Seitsuki]

Despite the constant rioting and protests and whatnot by Muslims, it's always stressed that it's a minority and that the majority decry such behaviour and want peace. It's always unPC to generalise Muslims and Islam as violent etc, unless you're a far right loony in which case you aren't entitled to an opinion.

Why isn't this standard applied here? I mean, judging from the pics these protesters number no more than a few 100000. That's less than 0.1% of the population. Why is every mainlander hated on for that?

There will be nutjobs in any society. When said society numbers over a billion there're be more than a few. It's inevitable.

I don't support this stupidity, but I wish there was less vehemence. I'm not proud of my country but I love my people. I don't think that's wrong. Can't we keep things more objective and tone down the rhetoric please?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

Why isn't this standard applied here? I mean, judging from the pics these protesters number no more than a few 100000. That's less than 0.1% of the population. Why is every mainlander hated on for that?

The loudest tend to be the more prominent representatives. And the problem is compounded because it is widely reported and experienced that China expats behave in the similar way they are typecasted to.

Sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy gone ugly. I still remember the responses on a deleted thread in a local forum when our then Senior Minister Goh Chok Tong responded to rising anti-China sentiment with "Don't forget where we came from" : most of it went along the lines of "Go fakh yourself" and "Stop selling out our country to China"; Singapore is known to have a high number of China expats due to "special deals", but if the sentiment is like that, there certainly has to be something wrong with the people we get from there.

Or there is something wrong with the immigration authorities (yay! another reason to blame the government! [/sarcasm]).

[Ascaloth]

Yes, I also realise I'm not being fair when I'm generalising my dim views to mainlanders in general.

I mean if anything, I should be aware that not all mainlanders display such a level of arrogance. And it's not like I've not seen that for myself either; my girlfriend's landlady is a mainlander who married a local and had kids with him, and she's about as nice a lady as one gets. Surely, they're not all arrogant pricks, right?

But when you hear the same tales about them repeatedly, and from difference places from sources all over the world, what's more? It can get very, very hard to keep a balanced perspective.

I'm not saying I'm immune to bias, or any such crap, but how did that saying go? When there's this much smoke in the air...

[Vanish]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

The problem is - when a person sees himself on a moral high ground, do you think he will listen to suggestions for "improvement"?

I don't. Trying won't hurt though. Just the optimistic soul in me speaking.

snip

Actually my situation is pretty much the same here in Germany. Like I said, we just have to agree to disagree. You don't mind, I do. And I'm aware that I am a hypocrite because I can enjoy those racist joke exchanges the way you described them. Actually if I think twice about it, I can't really say I do mind the insults in general because I try to look at each situation specifically before judging.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vanish

I don't. Trying won't hurt though. Just the optimistic soul in me speaking.

*ties Vanish to a stake and burns him*

DIE YOU DELUDED OPTIMIST. DIE!!!! Stop dragging others away from reality!

The problem is that they don't want to even try. Sometimes I wonder if it is embedded in our genes that the Chinese value "face" more than anything else - I mean, personal image doesn't actually worth much when you can't do work or get along with others.

Actually my situation is pretty much the same here in Germany. Like I said, we just have to agree to disagree. You don't mind, I do. And I'm aware that I am a hypocrite because I can enjoy those racist joke exchanges the way you described them. Actually if I think twice about it, I can't really say I do mind the insults in general because I try to look at each situation specifically before judging.

Suggestion : when you find it offensive, use the middle finger FIRST then explain later. And ignore them when they continue to harass you.

You can't really do much about those hardcore xenophobics because like any other extremist, they are immune to reason. There are some moderate ones who use it as a casual joke because they don't know you well enough and tend to let the media get the better of them.

[Key Board]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1226475484583

the article over-exaggerates the quote, but it's still something unsettling

[Vanish]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

*ties Vanish to a stake and burns him*

DIE YOU DELUDED OPTIMIST. DIE!!!! Stop dragging others away from reality!

I'm more M than S so be careful. And if I imagine that Eclair a'la menthe is saying/doing all that stuff to me... oh yeah!

The problem is that they don't want to even try. Sometimes I wonder if it is embedded in our genes that the Chinese value "face" more than anything else - I mean, personal image doesn't actually worth much when you can't do work or get along with others.

Yep, that's the problem. And that's why I often annoyed my teacher with comparisons to Europe during my stay in Beijing.

Suggestion : when you find it offensive, use the middle finger FIRST then explain later. And ignore them when they continue to harass you.

Thanks, I'm already putting my middle finger to good use. (lol double meaning) And yeah when I find it offensive enough for me to middle finger on them and what not, that's one of the times that I do mind the insult and that's all I have been stating in my recent posts. I really do agree with the rest of what you said.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

But when you hear the same tales about them repeatedly, and from difference places from sources all over the world, what's more? It can get very, very hard to keep a balanced perspective.

I'm not saying I'm immune to bias, or any such crap, but how did that saying go? When there's this much smoke in the air...

That's when you try to put things into perspective with a proper frame of reference, in this case by realizing just how many Chinese are actually there, and how many are actually committing these criminal acts.

Would you condemn all of Egypt and Libya for their recent attacks on the US Embassy? or all of Palestine for the action of Hamas? or all Muslims based on the action of the radical terrorists?

You have to realize that once you start going down the path of using broad strokes of generalization, you'll simply turn yourself into a bigot in the end.

[Daniel E.]

Guys, please remember that the topic of this thread is the Islands dispute. A couple of posts have already been edited, but more could be moderated later if things continue the same.

[Tom Bombadil]

ロシア大使館前で車燃やす＝放火容疑で男逮捕―動機は「中国のデモ抗議」・警視庁

It probably fits the silly and odd news thread better. Japanese man burns cars in front of the Russia embassy and claim that it is a protest against the Chinese demonstrations.

By the logic of many people here, he is a good representative of Japanese people.

[Ithekro]

A single incident with one or few people? No that would not logically represent Japan.

80 or more incidents in a short amount of time with thousands of people (someone suggested a hundred thousand people)? That's a little more wide spread and such a leap of logic could be made against China's public character.

[RRW]

Local news outlets say up to 1,000 boats will set sail from Fujian, Zhejiang, and other coastal provinces after a fishing moratorium on the East China Sea was lifted September 16. Each year Chinese vessels sail to the waters around disputed territory known in China as the Diaoyu Islands and in Japan as the Senkaku Islands. Authorities say the islands have been designated as a maritime patrol area to protect the safety of the fishermen.

http://english.caixin.com/2012-09-17/100438780.html

[LeoXiao]

China is undergoing high-level political problems because of the upcoming 18th Party Congress. I'm pretty sure they want to get the nationalistic sentiments of their people riled up (at the cost of good relations with neighboring countries) so that their attention is focused outward.

The whole thing is entirely pointless when you realize that nobody actually lives on the islands. They should just bomb it into the water and pretend it never existed. EDIT: But apparently the whole things is 7km^2 so I'm not sure what the feasibility of that is.

EDIT': Speaking as someone who interacts mostly with mainlanders, mainland Chinese are generally in my opinion and experience a lot less pleasant to deal with than those who live overseas. Actually the main, and IMO very important distinction is fundamentally political and not cultural, but nobody seems to care enough to realize. It ought to be "Communist" vs. "non-Communist" Chinese. And don't get started about how China isn't really Communist anymore, the point is that they live under an abnormal political culture commonly seen in states that call or used to call themselves Communist.

[MakubeX2]

I tell ya, the suitation at sea is descending into a stalemate, just like the Spratly. Nobody will dare to fire the first shot due to variety of reasons.

The way I see it is if the CCP fire first, they will lose their moral high ground with pretty much everybody ganging up on them. Japan will not fire first because they do not want to court suicide.

But on the flip side, if China dare to do a repeat of Tiananmen and send in troops with heavy armour to quell the rioters instead of the token riot police, I suppose the Japanese are oblige to do something in return. Those mainland citizens are too cowed to do anything aganist their own government, right ?

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by RRW

http://english.caixin.com/2012-09-17/100438780.html

Now that they've had enough of invading Korean waters, they're invading Japanese waters? Just the usual I suppose.