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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 22 [END] Rating
Perfect 10 86 57.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 26.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 8.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.33%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.33%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.67%
Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-17, 21:03   Link #101
ele-ene-ene
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post

The procession scenes reminded me of Akira Kurosawa's great film Dreams (the foxes' wedding section, in particular).

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eplipswich View Post
Another reason is because of the peach blossoms as stated below (yeah, they're peach, not cherry).

A quote from the first link:

"Momo-no-Sekku used to be held on the 3rd of March according to the Lunar Calendar, though today it is actually not until early April that the peach blossoms begin to bloom, and that is how the name of this festival came about."
Dolls Festival episode from Akira Kurosawa’s “Dreams” shows the link between dolls and cherry blossoms.
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Old 2012-09-17, 21:38   Link #102
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think the general consensus is that it was a beautiful, poignant, and touchingly symbolic ending that subtly embodies all the character development we've seen over the course of this show.

I almost don't want to ask: and what did you see...?
Honestly, I think that's the general audience's opinion of Hyouka as a whole, really. It pretty much betrayed everyone's expectations around the 3rd episode, and ever since then I've seen people say left and right that the show is "boring" and whatnot. Hyouka isn't the kind of story you can show to just anyone. You need some kind of sensibility to understand it, something which not everyone has.

Quote:
I've rewatched maybe half of the episodes, and have been rewarded for it. There are a lot of little understated things that one doesn't appreciate until one sees the end of the series.
I've actually rewatched half the show already because a friend of mine wanted to watch it with me. At the time, I believe episode 11 was out, so yeah. After that it was all new to me.

But yeah, I'm definetely gonna rewatch it at some point. There aren't many shows like this these days, and I think it deserves to be seen more than once.
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Old 2012-09-17, 21:39   Link #103
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gaw 100 + replies so fast or was i really late XD

ouch for a moment there i thought oreki THE MAN with that "...let me handle the business part" turns out he just imagined the part. arghh still nice scene. think they really understand each other.

aw its the last episode.hope there will be a 2nd season.
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Old 2012-09-17, 21:53   Link #104
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gaw 100 + replies so fast or was i really late XD

ouch for a moment there i thought oreki THE MAN with that "...let me handle the business part" turns out he just imagined the part. arghh still nice scene. think they really understand each other.

aw its the last episode.hope there will be a 2nd season.
I just think this episode did such a good job reaching people that the comments have flowed really easily. Plus it's the last episode so you can fit in all the thoughts about the series as a whole. I mean some really nice stuff was written within these 100+ replies.

Think Houtarou had everyone with that amazing line before reality caught us offguard . But think the last moment of the episode had it right, a bright future awaiting and really those two are just getting started .
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Old 2012-09-17, 22:08   Link #105
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Chitanda can Oreki to do anything and this episode proves it


Sigh this need more episodes
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Old 2012-09-17, 22:30   Link #106
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So... the end... finally... after amazing 20 and 21... Really, KyoAni? WTF was this sh*t?!
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think the general consensus is that it was a beautiful, poignant, and touchingly symbolic ending that subtly embodies all the character development we've seen over the course of this show.

I almost don't want to ask: and what did you see...?
Not to speak for this person, but I think that people who are having this kind of reaction are basing it upon what they DIDN'T see, rather than on what they did see.

And what they didn't see was the Super Lovey-Dovey Happy Romantic ending that so many shows seem to offer up to viewers, almost as some kind of sacrificial lamb. It's been pretty clear throughout this show's run that it wasn't really that kind of story. After all, Takemoto, the director, said since the beginning that this was a bittersweet tale.

Still, even with that knowledge, this episode felt a bit like a punch to the gut. Fortunately though, it was the kind of punch that makes you feel alive. It's the kind of impact that knocks you out of your daze and allows you to truly feel.

Interestingly enough, it is precisely that kind of impact that Houtaro undergoes during the procession. He felt out of place. He felt nervous. Hell, he sounded like he was going to pass out. He regretted even going. His whole way of life was crumbling around him. Yet despite all this, he was, for lack of a better word, curious! He began to notice things he normally wouldn't. He was curious about things he had previously never given a second thought to. For the first time in his life, Houtaro was living the rose colored existence that he so desired yet continually shied away from.

And it was beautiful.

But in the end, he couldn't commit. Not yet, at least. "It's getting cold," as he puts it. But Chitanda isn't going to let Houtaro off the hook that easy. "It's spring," she says. In fact, spring is just starting. And there's still more than enough time for Houtaro to bloom.

Last edited by NCP; 2012-09-17 at 22:41.
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Old 2012-09-17, 22:40   Link #107
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I only wish there had been more of the other pair in the episode (not necessarily for a better closure for them, as I think theirs was a subtle but great one as well, but I just wanted to see them ._.) but other than that, this was as good as it could potentially get.
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Old 2012-09-18, 00:13   Link #108
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I'm with Flawfinder - As powerful a moment as it would be for the series to end off on, I'm honestly glad that Oreki's super-confession to Chitanda was a daydream and a thought that passed through his mind rather than something he actually did.

The reason is that I think one of this show's greatest strengths is its realistic portrayal of people, and how it shows the beauty and strength of people, even with realistic warts and all. Having the teenaged Oreki make a confession that's almost like an implicit marriage proposal would probably seem a bit too fantastical for a narrative world that has been admirably restrained in this regard.

Nonetheless, I'm glad there was that daydream, because it confirms what most viewers had long-expected and hoped for. I think it also further infuses the show with that youthful hope of endless possibilities as was mentioned earlier on this thread. I think that such hope is a good note to end off the series on.


And yet, even with that hope, one core fact that I think this episode conveyed well is how there's actually a certain melancholy to Chitanda's seemingly glamorous "family of high status" position. As much as it brings her certain power and esteem, it's all very localized as she points out, and it involves an area that indeed does seem to have a certain aging if not withering to it (it's a truly beautiful area, but I don't think it's any coincidence that almost all of the men we saw Oreki interact with in this episode are much older men).

I can't help but think that there are times when Chitanda would prefer the life of a normal person, and perhaps that's one way in which Chitanda and Oreki are alike. Due to things beyond their control - the family that Chitanda was born into, and the talent that Oreki was born with - It's debatable whether either of them can have that normal life that they probably would like to have. So will they find comfort in each other in living out lives of a rosier color than that, for both good and for ill? I think that the anime ends on a very hopeful note in that regard, but I'm glad it's open-ended.


I'm glad that Irisu made one last appearance, and had her first conversation with Oreki since the movie mystery arc. I think this gave Irisu's character some nice finality, and while not necessarily redeeming her in the eyes of her critics, I think it shows that she's not as cold a person as Oreki had come to think of her as.


And one thing that I think this episode does very well overall is capture a good sense of finality. It's clear that there's yet brimming possibilities for all of the major characters in this show, but at the same time we have indeed seen smooth, subtle character development. All of the characters, and especially Oreki I think, have truly changed and matured over the course of this show, and ultimately I think that such maturing is much of what this anime is about. So now may be as good a point as any to bring the anime to a close.

Many anime shows, in my view, struggle to simply have a good ending. So for Hyouka to have an excellent ending that perfectly suits the atmosphere, characters, color, focus, and themes of this show deserves a perfect score. 10/10 for Episode 22 of Hyouka. This final episode was truly like a beautiful painting in motion. Perhaps KyoAni's greatest strength is how it knows exactly when and where to pull out all the stops at a visual level.


It's somewhat sad to say goodbye to this show, but the way it concluded itself is also very satisfying to me. If there's ever more Hyouka anime, that would be very nice and I'd definitely watch it. But if there's not, I can definitely be satisfied with these 22 episodes alone.
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Old 2012-09-18, 00:24   Link #109
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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I think it's more about not wanting to take the risk more than anything. Remember the discussion about three episodes rule and the like at the beginning of Hyouka? I think it shows our mindset. We expect them to hook us very early, and the industry generally follow that. They have to make characters went out of their supposedly usual behavior as an expense of making things more exciting.

Moreover, as you eluded to, this approach take time, and need to be planned ahead. Even with 22 episodes, the showing rather than screaming character developments at the audience only apply mostly about Houtarou, as I said when I made the same observation in the general thread. Take Eru for example. Someone probably still argue that she didn't change at all. We only got a concrete change when she explain herself in this episode. My impression is that most of the authors doesn't have the luxury of knowing that their series will get continuation beyond the first book. So they cannot plan ahead that far.
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I think you're right about this. It's perhaps interesting to note that the source material are actual novels and not what we call "light novels". A lot of Light Novels are designed to appeal to a slightly younger audience by having the stories be shorter and more self-contained; that combined with the illustrations make them "lighter reads". The also have a lot of the same characteristics as you describe -- the first volume tends to be a fully self-contained story (as if they don't know if they'll be continued or not), and the characters tend to expose their main traits more quickly to hook the audience more easily. A regular novel can be much more gradual in its development of characters and of a theme because the author has a lot more leeway in the book's presentation (they're not bound so tightly to hit certain readership numbers in a particular demographic as demanded by the label editors/publishers, and so on)...

When light novels are typically animated, the focus is usually to take advantage of the visual medium to make an "anime experience" out of the book. So a lot of the subtleties of the prose may be excised in favour of things that are flashier and "more anime". (The sorts of works that are chosen for anime adaptation in the first place are usually those that match this best.) I think that happened to a degree here too, but they chose a work that was deliberately understated and character-focused, and allowed it to remain so despite what would probably seem like the better judgement of the industry. They can only really "get away with this" because of the players involved; they know that people will give the show a chance just because of the director, writer, and animation production company. Despite having some nods to popular traits (and the subject matter itself isn't so far removed from your anime norms), this is still pretty close to an "arthouse anime". Even if other companies may want to make works like this, I think the number who could actually pull it off are few (not due to skill, necessarily, but due to a lack of ability to get the needed funding to "do it right" due to the fear of it being a total flop).

So yeah, I think it is risk aversion on both levels -- the way the source material is generally written, and also the way anime is generally produced. Even with the apparent success of this show, I doubt that we'll see many copycats; this isn't the sort of thing where producers will randomly bet on lightning striking twice.
Both your comments are spot on.

Maybe I didn't word it right, but I actually meant to say “risk aversion” when I said “Maybe because many writers or anime creators don’t consider the viewers or readers intelligent enough to “get it”.” I mean, even for late-night animes which obviously not targeted for kids, many of their stories are still dumbed-down in order to be understood more easily. That proves that many anime creators and many writers consider “subtlety” is too much for the viewers & readers coz they will only consider it boring. Of course, they don’t want their products to flop, so they go with the least risky choice (especially for anime: even if the source materials do have subtlety, the anime creators will think twice or thrice before adding it).

Thus, our opinions are more or less the same.
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Old 2012-09-18, 00:47   Link #110
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And yet, even with that hope, one core fact that I think this episode conveyed well is how there's actually a certain melancholy to Chitanda's seemingly glamorous "family of high status" position. As much as it brings her certain power and esteem, it's all very localized as she points out, and it involves an area that indeed does seem to have a certain aging if not withering to it (it's a truly beautiful area, but I don't think it's any coincidence that almost all of the men we saw Oreki interact with in this episode are much older men).

I can't help but think that there are times when Chitanda would prefer the life of a normal person, and perhaps that's one way in which Chitanda and Oreki are alike. Due to things beyond their control - the family that Chitanda was born into, and the talent that Oreki was born with - It's debatable whether either of them can have that normal life that they probably would like to have. So will they find comfort in each other in living out lives of a rosier color than that, for both good and for ill? I think that the anime ends on a very hopeful note in that regard, but I'm glad it's open-ended.
I don't know about "normal", but I think there's little doubt she'd love to be able to go out into the world and do whatever. She loves her field and her rice, and she loves her people, but her prime characteristic is curiosity, after all.

On the subject of Houtarou's proposal: do you guys think he can do business without involving blackmail?
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Old 2012-09-18, 00:59   Link #111
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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On the subject of Houtarou's proposal: do you guys think he can do business without involving blackmail?
What?! Blackmail is an important element in business, especially if it involves some dirty big companies in Japan or corrupt bureaucracy XD. Having a talent in the art of black-mail is surely an advantage, but I doubt Houtaro will apply it to the innocents. So, I'm not worried.
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Old 2012-09-18, 01:47   Link #112
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In this episode of Hyouka ... a lot of symbolism, and no real endings. Sure, there is some small effort made at tying up a couple of loose ends; but it's done in a way that raises more questions than it answers. Makaya thanks Oreki for his role in getting Satoshi to make a decision. However, we're given no real clue how he decided ... only that things are now "normal" between Satoshi and Mayaka, and she can give him an honest little smile when she acknowledges that she heard about what Oreki and Satoshi said on the bridge. Oreki even gets a chance to interact with Irisu. Who, pretty much, tells him that it was nothing personal; that she had a job to do the last time they crossed swords ... but in asking him his view on the bridge incident, she shows that she really does respect his skills and the she wouldn't lie to him in that situation (any other time though, that's a whole different story.) There's even time for a little mystery ... but all of this is absolutely secondary to the main plot.

Much of the episode focuses on Oreki. Chitanda has given him a very intimate view of her world, the world of traditional Japan. A world of ornate outfits, of ancient rituals, of lords who command and peasants who obey, of understanding one's exact place and role in society, and of always having to consider family honor and "face."

He spends much of this episode as the outsider looking in. He is greeted with suspicion and disdain at nearly every turn. He is made to feel distinctly out of place; with his Western clothes, his unkempt hair, and his gray "energy conserving" lifestyle. If Chitanda is tradition, then Oreki is modern.

What's impressive about this is that it is a world that Chitanda presents to him honestly. It's not the most beautiful, nor especially important, nor one of great potential. It is what it is, and it's one that Chitanda is duty-bound to serve.

It's one she also invites him to take part in. Chitanda's destiny is to serve her family, but it's a destiny she wants to share with Oreki. Not because Oreki is someone like her; but because Oreki is someone not like her. They are complimentary. She has the drive and curiosity he lacks. He has both the logical acumen, and the willingness to get his hands dirty and engage in the sort of horse-trading that she doesn't (or can't.)

Chitanda doesn't make the invitation lightly. Her eyes tell all ... when she tells him that she wanted him to see her world, she doesn't have the wide eyes of a naive young girl ... she has the eyes of a woman. Oreki recognizes the invitation for what it is, and grasps its seriousness; which shows us how much he's grown as a person. He also recognizes it as a decision that he must one day make ... where one day he might just offer to "take care" of the business side of things, and follow Chitanda on her path.

There is a certain symbolism here. Traditional Chitanda and modern Oreki. In the end, one cannot exist without the other. A world wholly of tradition is "old and tired." A wholly modern world is "gray." The best world is one that takes the complimentary strengths of both worlds together.

That, of course, is a decision left for the future. Both Chitanda and Oreki realize that their relationship has just barely begun. That, for now, they (and their relationship) are in the springtime of youth.

How to rate this episode ... well, this show has been entirely about Oreki Houtarou, how he sees the world, and how his character evolves over the course of the series. He starts out the world as a gray energy conservationist. The way he initially sees Chitanda; causes her to be portrayed as otaku moe-bait for much of the series. However, the more time he spends with her, and the more he emerges from his world of gray; the more Chitanda's portrayal shifts in a positive direction. We see her, more and more, not as some burdensome airhead, but as someone whose personality and thought-processes are complimentary to Oreki's ... and this continues right up to this episode where she has impulsively youthful side, but she also holds a very grown-up conversation with him.

It is, in the end, a very good point to leave the series. The first year has ended, Oreki's emerged from his shell, Chitanda's become fully fleshed-out, and all the kids of the Classics Club are at a point where they can begin the next year anew.

Since it's a very good point to leave the series, that's my rating for this episode: Eight prematurely blossoming trees out of ten.
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Old 2012-09-18, 02:20   Link #113
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I mean, even for late-night animes which obviously not targeted for kids, many of their stories are still dumbed-down in order to be understood more easily. That proves that many anime creators and many writers consider “subtlety” is too much for the viewers & readers coz they will only consider it boring. Of course, they don’t want their products to flop, so they go with the least risky choice (especially for anime: even if the source materials do have subtlety, the anime creators will think twice or thrice before adding it).
I'd like to add that we the audiences are parts of the problem. We demands exciting anime and "cool" characters. We turned a blind eye to the fact that sometimes what the character did totally betray his/her own behaviors in favor of making him/her more cool or make things more exciting. I personally think some of the popular characters have no character at all. The author just make him do whatever would be cool at the moment.

This is how I imagine Hyouka would be if it take the regular approach: start off with three episodes of "Hyouka" arc (3-5) then proceed directly to the Kanya festival arc. I think it would eliminate a lot of complains about it being boring. To make things even more "exciting", they can make Houtarou rushed down to deliver the bag of flour to Mayaka in that cooking competition. That would have made him more cool and score some points from both Mayaka and Eru in the process (and Satoshi, if you want it that way ). Let us also make a slight modification of the arc ending with Houtarou announce his deduction to the whole school. Finishing it off would be he actually said what he thought out loud in this episode. How cool would that Hyouka be!

Except not. Hyouka would lose all its charms. We who appreciate Hyouka the way it actually is will pull our hair while saying "but this guy just claim repeatedly that he is an energy conservation person!" Triple_R already explained in details why even the last-episode Houtarou is still not the type of person to say that pseudo proposal out loud. However, I think Hyouka may be more "popular" that way. It won't get as many 10/10 scores, but it would get many more 8's out of those 1-6's it got right now to make up for it.

It's also a little bit of catch-22 situation. An anime taking the regular approach became popular. The industry respond by making more like that, which in turn make more popular anime that take this approach. It just went on. So, while I think relentlessflame is right, I hope that Hyouka would inspire more anime to tackle its character development style. I don't mind a regular fix of suddenly-I-decided-I'll-save-the-world/girl(s), but I do need something that can blow me away with my suspension of disbelieve turn almost completely off too.
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Old 2012-09-18, 05:11   Link #114
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I almost don't want to ask: and what did you see...?
For me that was not closure at all.. (I know it's slice of life but there are simply many other slice-of-life animes that are much much better)

Flaws of final episode:
- for the last episode, there was too much time of nonimportant and uninteresting scenes in preparation of parade part.
- main characters other than Oreki are barely seen for almost half episode.
- instead we are presented with dull slowpace talk of first-seen side-characters during parade preparations. No emotions for me - why should I care for them I am seeing them for the first time.
- why do we have to watch babbling of several old men and their unsubstantial dispute about correct route parade should go, why? why introduce red-head boy (or brown hair whatever) in the last episode - that doesn't make sense.
- KyoAni trolling again with ugly animation of parade (if that was animation at all - discarding every second, third and fourth frame). It felt very low-budgety comparing to other parts of the series. And no, I am not seeing it as brilliant choice of mood - for that, I have seen it too many times elsewhere...
- ending scene was graphically nice and well done, yes, but chitanda's talk about her plans of going to college was sort of branching away from main theme they should talk - her relationship with oreki. this was again, uninteresting to me. Why there wasn't some sort of intimate confession under sakura tree, just why? Wasted potential of the scene, if you ask me. Yes, you could see that as normal life when two of very close boy-girl students have some feelings for each other but have to go away and never see themselfs again due to other circumstances - but is that really the story we want to see in the first place? (if yes, watch masterpieces from makoto shinkai, this one felt very dull)

As it is, it was very unsatisfying conclusion to Hyouka story for me (if there was any conclusion at all). If you ask me, everything in this ep could be done a ton better.

All in all, it felt like authors of this show really didn't know what to do with it in the first place. There were too many themes, many unnecessary mystery arcs if you ask me. In result, some eps was great, some wasn't at all. If everything was like ep14, 20 or 21 I would give it 9 out of 10 but it was nowhere to it and now I really don't know what I should think of it as whole.

Does anyone know how Hyouka was doing in Japan? I can't see this getting second season at all...

Last edited by Mich666; 2012-09-18 at 05:29.
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Old 2012-09-18, 05:31   Link #115
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Hyouka's not supposed to have a closure. As others have pointed out, one of its strenghts lies in its realistic portrayal of people and relationships, as well as life. The river keeps on flowing (in fact, there was a shot of a river more than once), and who knows what awaits beyond it?
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Old 2012-09-18, 05:56   Link #116
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Originally Posted by Mich666 View Post
For me that was not closure at all.. (I know it's slice of life but there are simply many other slice-of-life animes that are much much better)

Flaws of final episode:
- for the last episode, there was too much time of nonimportant and uninteresting scenes in preparation of parade part.
- main characters other than Oreki are barely seen for almost half episode.
- instead we are presented with dull slowpace talk of first-seen side-characters during parade preparations. No emotions for me - why should I care for them I am seeing them for the first time.
- why do we have to watch babbling of several old men and their unsubstantial dispute about correct route parade should go, why? why introduce red-head boy (or brown hair whatever) in the last episode - that doesn't make sense.
I think you really missed the point of the episode.

Here we see Chitanda's role in her community. This was mainly revolving around "Chitanda's world" and what Oreki might encounter inside it. I mean that part where Chitanda was talking to Oreki in a very serious tone says a lot. You could see Oreki having a really hard time digesting the contrast of the behavior.

Anyway about Satoshi and Mayaka, they weren't even the focus here. They were probably only shown just to have a sense of continuity from the previous episode.

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Originally Posted by Mich666 View Post
why introduce red-head boy (or brown hair whatever) in the last episode - that doesn't make sense.
Nothing more as a tool for this episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich666 View Post
- KyoAni trolling again with ugly animation of parade (if that was animation at all - discarding every second, third and fourth frame). It felt very low-budgety comparing to other parts of the series. And no, I am not seeing it as brilliant choice of mood - for that, I have seen it too many times elsewhere...
As much as I'd disagree about that scene not being good, I'll just agree with you that it could've been done better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich666 View Post
- ending scene was graphically nice and well done, yes, but chitanda's talk about her plans of going to college was sort of branching away from main theme they should talk - her relationship with oreki. this was again, uninteresting to me. Why there wasn't some sort of intimate confession under sakura tree, just why? Wasted potential of the scene, if you ask me. Yes, you could see that as normal life when two of very close boy-girl students have some feelings for each other but have to go away and never see themselfs again due to other circumstances - but is that really the story we want to see in the first place? (if yes, watch masterpieces from makoto shinkai, this one felt very dull)

As it is, it was very unsatisfying conclusion to Hyouka story for me (if there was any conclusion at all). If you ask me, everything in this ep could be done a ton better.

All in all, it felt like authors of this show really didn't know what to do with it in the first place. There were too many themes, many unnecessary mystery arcs if you ask me. In result, some eps was great, some wasn't at all. If everything was like ep14, 20 or 21 I would give it 9 out of 10 but it was nowhere to it and now I really don't know what I should think of it as whole.

Does anyone know how Hyouka was doing in Japan? I can't see this getting second season at all...
Like I said this episode was really about Chitanda's world and the adversities Oreki might face. It's everything against his nature. It was something that needed a lot of effort. It shatters his energy saving life style.

Every time romance related stuff happens it's all the subtleties that plays. The source material isn't even over. The anime has caught up with it with only a few stories left to use. They really didn't end it with any implications they'd be growing apart but rather it shows that Houtarou deep down acknowledges he has feelings for Chitanda. He has already accepted her but he hasn't totally accepted himself. He's in Satoshi's shoes now. Just look at the difference between his daily life to Chitanda's daily life. It's mountains high in difference.

Yes I know it's sad we had no confession but this was really a more realistic way of closing things. For Houtarou to think of such a line means he is beyond JUST interested in her. I mean that line he wanted to say was sitting in the lines of Marriage Proposal. To be involved that much in one person's problem! Those words hold too much responsibility and requires a lot of dedication. Just take a look at Houtarou's unwillingness to help Chitanda remember her Uncle's words. Or again just take a look at the Movie arc where he didn't want to be involved with Irisu's favor. Basically he doesn't want to commit to such things in fear that he might do something wrong and be blamed for it. This line however is everything against his nature again.

Mostly Houtarou saw Chitanda as nothing more than a nuisance he has to deal with. Why would he commit something THAT BIG to someone?

If we look at Houtarou's old self, it wasn't like him at all to say such big words. IMO this was a very abrupt thing Houtarou would have said. The way I see him is that he's normally the calculating person who takes the quickest steps in accomplishing what he has to do. That path he would have chosen probably says otherwise.

Regarding that 5cmps reference you said, it is highly unlikely with the way it's ended. Not saying there is no possibility but it is a very bright ending.

Another thing. If you by any chance were so particular about other shows out there, these open endings are much worse. Ever heard of the term GAINAX ending? Haruhi as well was open ended. It's not the first time KyoAni did such a thing probably but what can you expect when the material is still on going? KyoAni has been known for sticking to the source materials. Only a few changes here and there but the ending is still well within what the material states.

In any case Hyouka's doing decently and the Novels have been bumped really high. No real indication of a second season but that goes with almost all KyoAni works(Kadokawa). They couldn't really push themselves to make another season anyway with only a few stories at hand. Let's just hope the author dishes out more of it sooner.

Last edited by rulfo; 2012-09-18 at 13:12.
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Old 2012-09-18, 06:05   Link #117
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another thing that got to me was when Oreki said "ki ni narimasu". when wanting to see chitanda's face. it was so unlike his old self .and so much a reversal of roles since its usually chitanda saying that line. the line itself does not mean chitanda's face alone though but her whole life and world, he's so much into her that his own protected world of low energy consumption was crumbling from the inside due to him wanting to crawl out and learn more of chitanda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
...
And yet, even with that hope, one core fact that I think this episode conveyed well is how there's actually a certain melancholy to Chitanda's seemingly glamorous "family of high status" position. As much as it brings her certain power and esteem, it's all very localized as she points out, and it involves an area that indeed does seem to have a certain aging if not withering to it (it's a truly beautiful area, but I don't think it's any coincidence that almost all of the men we saw Oreki interact with in this episode are much older men).
...
that's a major social problem in japan today , the aging population, demographic is getting older and older, with less youngsters ( this is also touched upon in Tari-tari) and so they fear in the future there will be so few "working people" as opposed to those supported by the gov't under social care.

and i need to say it again beautiful episode, great series, glad i didn't drop it.
though it seems some people didn't like it, perhaps projecting their own "what should be" on the show, or wanting it more like other shows.perhaps not liking the subtlety, and low key projection.but i think that would only lessen Hyouka. Hyouka now has a place and style of it's own. and no matter how beautifully done an anime is if it only copies what others has done before then its nothing to me. i'll chose Hyouka over it anytime.
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Old 2012-09-18, 06:06   Link #118
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Originally Posted by Mich666 View Post
For me that was not closure at all.. (I know it's slice of life but there are simply many other slice-of-life animes that are much much better)

[snip]

As it is, it was very unsatisfying conclusion to Hyouka story for me (if there was any conclusion at all). If you ask me, everything in this ep could be done a ton better.

All in all, it felt like authors of this show really didn't know what to do with it in the first place. There were too many themes, many unnecessary mystery arcs if you ask me. In result, some eps was great, some wasn't at all. If everything was like ep14, 20 or 21 I would give it 9 out of 10 but it was nowhere to it and now I really don't know what I should think of it as whole.

Does anyone know how Hyouka was doing in Japan? I can't see this getting second season at all...
At first when I saw this post I instinctively felt the need to counter it. When I finally hit that "quote" button, I started losing energy realizing what a task it'd be considering it seems like you were blind to absolutely EVERYTHING this show represents, and how it does so. Alas, I will try anyways...

Quote:
Flaws of final episode:
- for the last episode, there was too much time of nonimportant and uninteresting scenes in preparation of parade part.
Doing this accomplished two things, as already said throughout this thread, it showed the contrast of Oreki being injected into Chitanda's life. Which was later reinforced by Chitanda's beautiful speech and insight about herself. The second being that it sets the details and setting in true Hyouka fashion for a "1-episode Mystery" as it were. That is the overall concept we were introduced to after all.

Quote:
- main characters other than Oreki are barely seen for almost half episode.
- instead we are presented with dull slowpace talk of first-seen side-characters during parade preparations. No emotions for me - why should I care for them I am seeing them for the first time.
- why do we have to watch babbling of several old men and their unsubstantial dispute about correct route parade should go, why? why introduce red-head boy (or brown hair whatever) in the last episode - that doesn't make sense.
Again, these characters are needed for setting. It should tell you something if quite a few people were actually surprised that Irisu made an appearance at all (read as: we weren't expecting such a nice surprise). Hyouka handled Satoshi and Mayaka the same way it handles everything else. With class and subtlety. They can't spell it out for you, partly because those two didn't work anything out aside from a return to the status quo until Satoshi figures things out (and possibly an apology). Though, quite frankly Mayaka did spell it out as much as possible by saying things were "pretty normal".

Quote:
- KyoAni trolling again with ugly animation of parade (if that was animation at all - discarding every second, third and fourth frame). It felt very low-budgety comparing to other parts of the series. And no, I am not seeing it as brilliant choice of mood - for that, I have seen it too many times elsewhere...
Trolling? Are you kidding me? It was a CHOICE, and it fit the mood perfectly. Having seen something similar anywhere else should be irrelevant, as that has absolutely no standing if you take in the imagery as you're watching. The general consensus is that this is a spectacular choice for this particular moment, and those are posts based on immediate reaction upon watching the finale. Whether it didn't click with you personally is one thing, but the fact that you're immediately comparing the scene with other anime instead of appreciating the scene as its being presented speaks volumes.

Quote:
- ending scene was graphically nice and well done, yes, but chitanda's talk about her plans of going to college was sort of branching away from main theme they should talk - her relationship with oreki. this was again, uninteresting to me. Why there wasn't some sort of intimate confession under sakura tree, just why? Wasted potential of the scene, if you ask me. Yes, you could see that as normal life when two of very close boy-girl students have some feelings for each other but have to go away and never see themselfs again due to other circumstances - but is that really the story we want to see in the first place? (if yes, watch masterpieces from makoto shinkai, this one felt very dull)
"The main theme they should talk about"? I'm sorry, but that's entirely your opinion and preference. The very fact you think that the romance between the two is the "main theme" at all tells me you were watching Hyouka for the "wrong" reasons. This show attained a fine balance of character development and story telling through the various details and subtleties that were "shown, but not said".

(EDIT - I am a true to heart romantic/romance buff, and I did not go into this expecting to find any. The fact that there was and it was presented so exceptionally well was a very pleasant surprise and bonus here.)

As said multiple times already, it does what most shows are afraid to do. It counts on the viewers to invest time and interest in watching the characters develop, and to realize their changes without being told.

Perhaps without realizing it, you are being a shining example of the type of viewer that Hyper, relentless, etc. are talking about. Where shows feel they need to be more visually appealing, and have a story that panders to the fans as opposed to weaving a masterful web of story and character development driven by nuance and subtlety. On the surface, this show spelled out for you its very basic of goals, to solve the mystery presented over a given period of time. It showed you everything else, and it was up to the viewer to see it.

The simple explanation here is, you did not (or chose not to).
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Old 2012-09-18, 08:09   Link #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich666 View Post
For me that was not closure at all.. (I know it's slice of life but there are simply many other slice-of-life animes that are much much better)

Flaws of final episode:
- for the last episode, there was too much time of nonimportant and uninteresting scenes in preparation of parade part.
This is intentional. The whole series is about Oreki and Oreki x Chitanda. She wanted him to see this world. This is what awaits Chitanda in adulthood. These are the sort of people she has to deal with outside of school, and as a scion of a local family of power. A lot of this episode flows directly from that.

Could the show have done a better job setting this up? Maybe ... we see that the show doesn't have to focus so tightly on Oreki, and his perception of the world, all the time. Arguably the Kanya Fest arc was the best one of the series precisely because the others got more time and development independent of Oreki.

Quote:
- main characters other than Oreki are barely seen for almost half episode.
One could probably spend entire episodes observing the fallout of whatever Satoshi told Mayaka after Oreki threatened to beat the stupid out of him. But, given that the 22 episodes of the show covers 80% of the source material and the fifth novel starts a whole new arc ... well, what we got was probably the best they could do without outright making up material for a couple more episodes.

Quote:
- KyoAni trolling again with ugly animation of parade (if that was animation at all - discarding every second, third and fourth frame). It felt very low-budgety comparing to other parts of the series. And no, I am not seeing it as brilliant choice of mood - for that, I have seen it too many times elsewhere...
This is all to do with the episode's extremely tight focus on Oreki and his point of view. It's all disjointed for him ... he'd really rather not be there, marching in a parade while wearing an outfit that doesn't suit him, carrying a ridiculously huge umbrella, and being completely unable to see Chitanda. The animation goes back to normal the instant he's snapped out of it by Satoshi and Mayaka.

Quote:
- ending scene was graphically nice and well done, yes, but chitanda's talk about her plans of going to college was sort of branching away from main theme they should talk - her relationship with oreki. this was again, uninteresting to me. Why there wasn't some sort of intimate confession under sakura tree, just why?
It's not a diversion from the main theme ... it's directly and fundamentally related to it. Eru Chitanda is duty-bound to honor the traditions of her family, and to accept the responsibilities of all that entails. She said it herself, all the roads in her life inexorably lead back home. One day, when hidebound old men speak of "Chitanda-san," they won't be referring to his daughter. They'll be referring to Eru.

The whole point of the episode is that Chitanda has chosen to share her world, and all its flaws, with Oreki because she wants to be with him. It is vital that he knows exactly what he'll be getting into. For Eru, this is a very intimate confession (the way she shyly looks down and away afterward clinches it.) It's her world and her life, stark naked, bereft of the makeup of sugar-coating, and unclothed of the pretensions of false airs or the flamboyance of Chitanda as THE MOE HYPNOTOAD.

Quote:
Wasted potential of the scene, if you ask me. Yes, you could see that as normal life when two of very close boy-girl students have some feelings for each other but have to go away and never see themselfs again due to other circumstances - but is that really the story we want to see in the first place? (if yes, watch masterpieces from makoto shinkai, this one felt very dull)
They're first year high school students. Given where they are on the social ladder, and what lies ahead, the implicit acknowledgement that they're both still young and that their relationship is just beginning (the whole springtime under the cherry tree motif,) is the best they can do.
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Old 2012-09-18, 08:11   Link #120
Warm Mist
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I just want to say that the parade scene wasn't cheap really. They cut some inbetweens for some pans and bigger shots, but they showed the animation for expressions and the like. What made it weird was the cinematic effect they applied there, they blurred the image and repeated some frames in an onion-skin like way, making the thing very "dizzy" and even hard to look at. The scene being overwhelming and almost annoying was the point, they were trying to convey Oreki's thoughts through visuals and the best way they found was that effect. If they had went just for "overly beautiful" like in the last scene, the fact that Oreki is being bothered by the scene (and Chitanda) overwhelming him and making him curious wouldn't come across as well as it did.
In any case, the photography job done for that scene is fantastic, and functional to the narrative as well, so I don't see reason in criticising it.

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