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Old 2012-09-18, 12:07   Link #30641
Patchwork Chimera
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The impression I've gotten from Chiru and OC is not a positive one of the person behind Beatrice. Someone who demands everyone understand her heart but has no empathy for others. Someone who thinks she's suffering but ignores the suffering of others (the lack of Genji characterization could well be because Yasu never once cared why Genji would want to help her, despite him doing a lot for her according to Requiem). Someone who sees other people as so greedy they'd agree to the murder of their families and friends but unable to see the irony in how selfish her own desires are. Someone willing to dishonor the memory of the dead while hiding her own involvement and existence.

And, quite possibly, someone so self-absorbed as to hurt other people and then daydream that those people would forgive her for her self-desribed "noble" motivations. That's awfully twisted.

Yet I don't get the sense that's how I'm supposed to view the character.
You know who is the villain i liked more in R07 works? Shion. But not because what she did or undid, nor because her personality or past or reasons. It was because, even if Meakashi was written from her POV, it's always reported in a 'believe what you want' way. I remember the post-script part where Ryuukishi listed some reasons why that girl was almost unforgivable, and questioned the reader that felt simpathy towards her. 'She's murdered and tortured little girls and don't you forget that.'

He explained clearly her reasons to going apeshit insane, and even after all of that, he didn't try to convince the reader to forgive her. A 'pityfull character' was all he was aiming for.

So Yasu is full of self-pity. She has her reasons, begining with her upbringing and the impact knowing she was a princess all along made in her. I can just think what a person would feel if she was treated like a lowly useless servant and then finds she's supposed to be the beloved and most important candidate to head in the family -at least, accoding to Kinzo-.

Actually Lion might be how Yasu dreamed she would be if Natsuhi didn't fuck her life. A perfect person, beloved by everyone and with a confident air, and of course Kinzo would make her the legitimate heir. A succesfull person in every ambit that caused envy in everyone else (but that'd be allright, because she was so loved even a little jealousy towards her would be downplayed in favor of adore her personality).

Then Yasu has to wake up. She's no Lion, she's no heir and even if she was she'd explode with the island. Why? Because that 'perfect heir' Yasu dreamed was limited to Rokkenjima's catbox. So, in order to follow the rules of every fantasy that could walk in earth, it had to be closed in the catbox. Bernkastel took that fact and shoved it in her mouth. Lion was no real.

I got off track... what bothers me most about Yasu is that, different of Shion, nobody calls on her for her egoistical way of seeing things. Nobody. Not herself (Shion explicitly said she was being selfish, at least at the begining when she wasn't insane) not even the higher beings. All are like 'understand her!' 'Not her fault!'.

Suddenly Berkastel insistence in break utterly and completely Beatrice mades a lot more sense. She KNOWS what an endless torture is, she knows how disgusting is self-pity and how meaningless is for a murderer to try and justify killing others friends and family because she had an horrible past (Talking about Takano, of course). Bernkastel fixing Takano's past might be a way of saying "There, not bad memories. Let's see what happens with my life if you stop crying about the unfairness of your life." And, after seeing the beautifull not-pain filled world it was, of course Bern was going to get a pet peeve when seeing self-centered idiots like Takano... or Beatrice. Like "I didn't do anything to you. And I spent a hundred years of repetitive torture for because YOU lived twenty bad yeaaaaars???!!!"

Then there goes Battler, in the same position as her. She got the itch to make something about it. And then Battler started acting like "Nothing wrong, she's forgiven". So Bern of course was angry and more than a little resentfull towards that guy. The last chapters in chiru, especially Twilight, might be about Bern refusing to acknowledge that bastards like Beatrice can be forgiven just like that. She's beaten and the message that Ushiromiya Battler deliver with that huge ass golden truth is 'People has different ways of thinking, for me, letting things go and forgiving someone you find unforgivable is possible'.

My personal answer to that is "Living without hate, or finding your death without hate about something you can't do anything to fix is cool. That doesn't make Beatrice's selfishness less disgusting, nor makes her suddenly someone who I'd forgive and embelish to a tragic heroine, sorry."

I got more love for Bern suddenly...
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-18 at 12:24. Reason: This day my spelling is worse than ever. Trying to make this a little easier to understand
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Old 2012-09-18, 12:27   Link #30642
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bastards like Beatrice can be forgiven just like that
...What makes you think Yasu was the culprit? As Aura suggested she might be covering for somebody else, You guys don't pity Yasu?, She was born from Incest, She had her body damaged to the point where she could not tell her freakin' Gender , How horrible is this? I admit that nothing can justify murder , but Yasu might not actually be the culprit and I would also never dare to call him/her Bastard. Mostly on Gameboards , first twilights are faked and then are lead into real crimes, Meaning it didn't went as Yasu wanted, I am sure she would never kill someone and I am sure she did no such thing in Rokkenjima Prime. Sorry if I came off as offensive , I didn't want to sound like that
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Old 2012-09-18, 12:42   Link #30643
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about Bern refusing to acknowledge that bastards like Beatrice can be forgiven just like that
I qoute my post

That's what was happening for Bern to be such an anti-beatrice witch. I agree with her to a certain extent. If you find the one who's torturing you, you don't suddenly make it easy on her. So maybe Prime-Yasu didn't kill anyone. But she was what started everything. And for Bernkastel, who saw how was a world without the woman who started everything (her friends happy, her family complete), begining a massacre indirectly is worse than realizing a massacre, because her dearest friends realized massacres, and all the fault was on Miyo, the one who started that mess.

Maybe Beatrice is different and RokkenPrime Yasu is a sweetie who didn't kill a fly. But the endless witch (the one she's treating in the Meta level - Bern's level of existence) acts like another Takano, gloating about being an all powerfull being, torturing a guy 'forever' because she had it rough... the paralell is merciless (made worse by the fact that Beatrice knows that Battler is suffering and reveling in that -Takano at least had no idea that Rika was trapped in an endless bad end) and that's why Bern's so invested in defeating 'Takano-Beato' by any means.

She's all the Rika that couldn't defeat 'real Takano'. So of course is personal.

That's talking about the meta level. What tragedy happened in real world or the gameboards is not of Bern's concern, she's focused in her own layer and the story that is unfolding there.

Is a little twisted, but Bern is pointed to be twisted.

My problem with Beatrice is that okay, she can be pitied or forgiven. But no one calls on her for her own selfishness and EVERY character in Umineko forgive her and thinks of her as a martyr. Except Bern, and we see why. (Edit: And Bernkastel is treated as an horrible, terrrible villain. Okay, she is, but she's had it as rough as Beatrice... ha. No. She's had it worse)

You don't explode an island knowing what was happening and wait for everyone to pat you in the head because you had it rough. Especially not the guy you start torturing killing his family and that has no freakin idea what you're talking about.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-18 at 13:04.
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Old 2012-09-18, 12:44   Link #30644
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Someone who demands everyone understand her heart but has no empathy for others.
Hoping for one person to understand her is quite different from demanding that everyone understands her. You seem to have mistaken her drive to commit suicide with her drive to be emotionally saved. Well, Battler criticized her for it too, so...

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Someone who thinks she's suffering but ignores the suffering of others (the lack of Genji characterization could well be because Yasu never once cared why Genji would want to help her, despite him doing a lot for her according to Requiem).
Hahaha, sure! Yes, that dastardly Yasu, having ambivalent feelings about the man that made her put on the dress her mother died in, console the heart of the man that raped her mother, and then only told her these things after the fact. Yes, yes, poor, tragic Genji.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Someone who sees other people as so greedy they'd agree to the murder of their families and friends but unable to see the irony in how selfish her own desires are.
This completely ignores the fact that in the episodes actually penned by Yasu, Beatrice is a monstrous sadist and all our pity is with the family. This doesn't speak of someone unaware of their own selfishness. It's only after Touya takes over writing duty that Beatrice becomes a sympathetic, fully-fledged character.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And, quite possibly, someone so self-absorbed as to hurt other people and then daydream that those people would forgive her for her self-desribed "noble" motivations. That's awfully twisted.
When did she daydream about that, pray tell? Because Beatrice was always characterized as someone yearning for love, but believing she was fundamentally unlovable. In the end scroll in EP8, she even points out that she's irredeemable and doesn't deserve to live for her crimes.

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Yet I don't get the sense that's how I'm supposed to view the character.
Well, like Shion, you're supposed to view her however you want. Ryukishi obviously pities her, again, like Shion, but that doesn't mean that you have to.
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Old 2012-09-18, 12:55   Link #30645
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Hahaha, sure! Yes, that dastardly Yasu, having ambivalent feelings about the man that made her put on the dress her mother died in, console the heart of the man that raped her mother, and then only told her these things after the fact. Yes, yes, poor, tragic Genji.
Assuming any of that is true, or that any of that actually happened. And if we can supposedly understand a person's drive to commit murder, I'm sure we can totally understand Genji, right? Right? Oh wait, we can't if we don't know anything about him. We literally have no idea why he does anything, be it in stories or reality, other than a vague sense of "loyalty" to either Kinzo or Yasu.

So right, other than a highly metaphorical scene that stretches all bounds of plausibility and a lot of things he may have said that we have no context for, and disregarding all the things we know he confirmably would have to have done, he's quite an ass.

On the other hand, he's apparently characterized as pretty selfless, at least in the sense that he has no actual self. So that still makes him a better person than either of his masters. Possibly. Unless he's actually a huge dick inside.

You can't seriously expect to go anywhere with criticism of the behavior of a character who is left entirely unreadable. But I suppose that's to be expected.
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...What makes you think Yasu was the culprit? As Aura suggested she might be covering for somebody else, You guys don't pity Yasu?, She was born from Incest, She had her body damaged to the point where she could not tell her freakin' Gender , How horrible is this? I admit that nothing can justify murder , but Yasu might not actually be the culprit and I would also never dare to call him/her Bastard. Mostly on Gameboards , first twilights are faked and then are lead into real crimes, Meaning it didn't went as Yasu wanted, I am sure she would never kill someone and I am sure she did no such thing in Rokkenjima Prime. Sorry if I came off as offensive , I didn't want to sound like that
No, I don't pity her. At all. She has a pretty nice life. There are a lot of people within the context of the story itself presented as living far worse lives than she has and finding hope and strength in them. People who do not pity themselves. People who are desperately searching for a solution.

Everything she considers so tragic and dangerous are fantasies of her own making inside her own head. The reality of her situation is that she is living a good life with decent people and has been treated incredibly well - even excessively favorably - by a number of people who owe her nothing.

And she is torn up over feelings of teenage angst which change nothing and are not the end of the world, and broiling in self-pity over things that might not have even ever actually happened to her, at least so far as she knows. And she's upset about not being able to see a person when no barriers whatsoever exist to her trying to do so if she wishes.

Plus, if she is a mass murderer... it's really only my belief that it's not in her nature to actually do something like that which prevents me from going deeper into that. But she's just kind of an annoying person as-is. Throw that in the mix and she becomes outright despicable.

So, I pity Maria. I don't pity Yasu. The world hands Yasu everything and she doesn't want it because of a passing fancy. The world craps in Maria's face on a daily basis and she copes with it. Why should I consider the two equivalent?
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Old 2012-09-18, 13:44   Link #30646
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Assuming any of that is true, or that any of that actually happened.
Well, if that's the route you're going, how do we know that Genji isn't a robot? How do we know that there is even an island? How do we know up is up, down is down, and the sky is blue? How do you know that you even read Umineko no Naku Koro Ni?

We could do this all day.

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No, I don't pity her. At all. She has a pretty nice life.
Yes, I, too, would be thrilled to know that my body is completely sexually dysfunctional and I'm 75% Kinzo, after having been working as a servant under the woman that tried to murder me. Man, that Yasu and her silly complaints!
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Old 2012-09-18, 14:20   Link #30647
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
That's what was happening for Bern to be such an anti-beatrice witch. I agree with her to a certain extent. If you find the one who's torturing you, you don't suddenly make it easy on her. So maybe Prime-Yasu didn't kill anyone. But she was what started everything. And for Bernkastel, who saw how was a world without the woman who started everything (her friends happy, her family complete), begining a massacre indirectly is worse than realizing a massacre, because her dearest friends realized massacres, and all the fault was on Miyo, the one who started that mess
Okay, that characterization is a lot more twisted than anything that is ever said about Yasu. I know Bernkastel is meant to be twisted, but the way you put it, how exactly is she in the right here? Even if Yasu actually is a twisted, horrible, despicable, damned, satan's best pal, how the hell does that make Bern right here?

Quote:
My problem with Beatrice is that okay, she can be pitied or forgiven. But no one calls on her for her own selfishness and EVERY character in Umineko forgive her and thinks of her as a martyr.
Um... EP3?

Quote:
Except Bern, and we see why. (Edit: And Bernkastel is treated as an horrible, terrrible villain. Okay, she is, but she's had it as rough as Beatrice... ha. No. She's had it worse)

You don't explode an island knowing what was happening and wait for everyone to pat you in the head because you had it rough. Especially not the guy you start torturing killing his family and that has no freakin idea what you're talking about.
And I'll say again that this is a whole lot more twisted. You know, when a person forgives the ones who crucified them and even spends their last breath pleading for them to be forgiven, it somehow belittles that noble action to say 'nope, those guys are unforgivable, you shouldn't forgive them so easily' (I'm really not trying to get religion dragged into this, just making an example, I'm an atheist).

To say that Bern is right for wanting to crush Beatrice because she cannot forgive her for something she did to OTHER people, just because she had something similar happen to her, and therefore cannot excuse Beatrice for not getting called on it is... at least irrational. Ask the people who get their asses blown, Battler forgave Beatrice, so Bern should just stay in Higurashi and dress up as a slutty cat or something.

I'm not trying to argue about Yasu being a tragic heroine instead of a murderer, I'm just pointing out that forgiveness isn't something to be taken so lightly. The way you put it, Bern is just a spoiled bitch (I know she is, but she's totally not right for it).

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On the other hand, he's apparently characterized as pretty selfless, at least in the sense that he has no actual self. So that still makes him a better person than either of his masters. Possibly. Unless he's actually a huge dick inside.
Well he kinda just looked the other way when his boss f***ed the shit out of his own daughter who was kinda kept as his own sex-dressup-prisoner.... so....

No, but seriously, I think he's one of the most poorly written characters in Umineko. Taking into account the way Umineko approaches the core of its characters, Genji could have been a masterpiece. Maybe my favorite character of all times. He could.

(But then again he doesn't have the hips for a cute mini-skirt, so I don't think Ryukishi07 agrees with me on this one.....)

Quote:
There are a lot of people within the context of the story itself presented as living far worse lives than she has and finding hope and strength in them. People who do not pity themselves. People who are desperately searching for a solution.
But arguing 'why didn't they commit murder' isn't really a valid point (not saying you're doing that). It's obviously Yasu's fault for not being like them.

Quote:
So, I pity Maria. I don't pity Yasu. The world hands Yasu everything and she doesn't want it because of a passing fancy. The world craps in Maria's face on a daily basis and she copes with it. Why should I consider the two equivalent?
I think Yasu is far more pitiable than Maria just for that reason. Maria can cope, she can even turn the shit life throws to her face into gold, and she should be proud of that. Yasu, the complete opposite who has no such ability is the pitiful one.
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Old 2012-09-18, 14:31   Link #30648
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I think Yasu is far more pitiable than Maria just for that reason. Maria can cope, she can even turn the shit life throws to her face into gold, and she should be proud of that. Yasu, the complete opposite who has no such ability is the pitiful one.
Wasn't it Yasu Who thought Maria how to handle that kind of situations? EP7 Maria and Beatos meeting, One of the most sweetest scenes in Umineko.
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Old 2012-09-18, 14:36   Link #30649
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Yes, I, too, would be thrilled to know that my body is completely sexually dysfunctional and I'm 75% Kinzo, after having been working as a servant under the woman that tried to murder me. Man, that Yasu and her silly complaints!
Except that's not something she knows is true. It's something she thinks is true, and which has never had any bearing on her life before. If she never heard about any of it, her life would be no different than it is. And the way it is is pretty good.

Literally, it matters only because she believes it. Even if every word of it were true, it doesn't matter, because her reaction would be the same if it were all false. She cannot prove she is the baby. She cannot prove there was a baby. She doesn't remember it. The trauma is not her own. She has no reason whatsoever to suffer some complete breakdown over this. It is entirely her fault how she chooses to react (or overreact) to unverifiable information. She's given a choice and I wouldn't begrudge her believing it and being emotionally harmed by it. But what she seems to do, or at least is alleged to have done, is the core of the problem. No one but her bears responsibility for that, and to latch on to something you merely believe is true as impetus for (possibly) the deaths of over a dozen people is disgusting.

It's ridiculous. She's being a transcendent drama queen about what amounts to a story, a story she cannot even confirm. And then, if we go by the fantasy scenario, she gets an apology and a bazillion dollars. And is nevertheless motivated by something apparently completely unrelated to that anyway.

Her characterization is an unbelievable mess that paints a picture of an overly-credulous, selfish person willing to fly off the handle about everything that is good for fanciful stories of horrible things that might have once been. But then acts like she's sensitive and pitiful. She has no idea how good she has it, how much worse others have it, and how hard they try to cope regardless.

The argument "well she's not that strong" would seem to fly in the face of her conviction to commit mass murder (and her apparent ability to create coping mechanisms as portrayed in Requiem). Of course, if she didn't do that, then the characterization claim is valid... but in that case she's innocent, and her supposed motive can't even be read that way because it's unrelated to why people actually died, and we're right back where we started.
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Old 2012-09-18, 14:37   Link #30650
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Wasn't it Yasu Who thought Maria how to handle that kind of situations? EP7 Maria and Beatos meeting, One of the most sweetest scenes in Umineko.
That's exactly what I'm pointing at. Even though Yasu teaches Maria to pick up only happy fragments, she herself does the opposite. That's why she's pitiful.
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Old 2012-09-18, 14:45   Link #30651
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I think that Higurashi did a way better job in dealing with Shion than Umineko did with Yasu.
Shion's reasons are clearly presented as well as her youth, her true identity, her attempts to stop herself, her blaming herself, what she tried to do, what she suffered emotionally and physically (nail ripping is a form of torture), her fears and what made her snap.

While what she does is clearly wrong you can understand why she did it and get the uncomfortable feeling of 'but if I had been in her place would I have been able to do the right thing or would I have gone paranoic as well and gone on a murdering rampage?'

Yasu... is someone we've to figure out.
However the problem is that generally people doesn't think themselves capable of doing such things. They would need a strong motivation to doubt themselves. The idea of placing yourself in the shoes of a serial murderer when you're a normal person is already something hard to do.
In order to think you might lose it and do something that horrible you need a strong setting. When you hear: 'hey, it's because her childhood crush, who didn't exactly knew if she returned his feelings, after losing his mother and leaving his family forgot about her and, when he came back and saw she had another boyfriend and was happy with him didn't really try to win her over again or thought he'd wronged her' we're prone to say 'uhm, what? if any girl who'd been dumped had to kill so many people Earth population would be reduced to 0... if we include in the dumping part the childhood crush humanity would have disappeared by the Earth long ago'.

Now, Yasu might have better motivations than Battler to do all that. She has the potential to have them. However:
a) Yasu never aknowledge them as her own reasons to act (unless she's lying to herself)
b) Some of them are impossible to guess, at least in the first 4 episodes
c) Some of them are so little developed it's impossible to deem them enough to justify murder
d) Yasu excuses herself a lot placing the blame on the person who's less culpable among the ones that were mean to him (you can blame Natsuhi for the fall, Kumasawa, Nanjo and Genji for ripping her from her family, even Eva for looking down at her likely planning to make her life hard should she try to marry George or Rosa for beating her friend, Maria or Gohda for taking advantage of her but Battler? He didn't mean to hurt her and if he didn't keep his 'promise' and ended up forgetting it, it's because he had a serious reason. Also she had made no real promise to leave with him in return but just... to think at it. If she were to decide she wanted to stay should have Battler killed her?)
e) Yasu could escape from many things that made her life unpleasant
f) Yasu could have tried to contact Battler
g) Yasu has around people who loves her, like George and Jessica, with whom she's not being honest, and people who apparently cared for her like Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo. Even if you want to blame Kumasawa and Genji for what they did, they did it in hope to help her, at least that's how it's presented. If they actually did it for their own interest... well, that's up for you to speculate, it's not proved nor clearly hinted so it feels forced.

All in all Yasu has the full potential to be a pitiful culprit but... she's poorly handed so it's rather hard to place yourself in her shoes and justify her.

It doesn't help that as Lion she depicts herself as a perfect yet bossy heir who doesn't really care much for her family's feelings (when Jessica asked Lion not to candidate Lion does anyway even knowing this would place Jessica in an uncomfortable position, when Bern said that her family might not like the fact Lion is the heir Lion said something along the line of 'too bad, that's how it was decided' not 'my family loves me and would never think so' or 'I would make up for it somehow'... and he never considered Krauss' feelings over not having the headship passed to him. Nor Lion even figured out Kinzo's feelings).

In short, it's hard to feel pity for Yasu.

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...What makes you think Yasu was the culprit? As Aura suggested she might be covering for somebody else, You guys don't pity Yasu?, She was born from Incest, She had her body damaged to the point where she could not tell her freakin' Gender , How horrible is this? I admit that nothing can justify murder , but Yasu might not actually be the culprit and I would also never dare to call him/her Bastard. Mostly on Gameboards , first twilights are faked and then are lead into real crimes, Meaning it didn't went as Yasu wanted, I am sure she would never kill someone and I am sure she did no such thing in Rokkenjima Prime. Sorry if I came off as offensive , I didn't want to sound like that
I think the Yasu we're talking about is the gameboard Yasu not Prime Yasu over which we know very little.

Also Yasu's problems aren't presented in a way that makes excusable her crimes not even by her and anyway she's taking it out on the wrong people.

Actually often the first twilight isn't entirely faked, just the part in which Yasu is supposed to be dead. In Ep 1 apart from yasu the others were dead, same for Ep 3. In our confession the first twilight is genuine and they all were dead. It's just Ep 5 who have all the victims fake their deaths to die later.

I doubt though Yasu's covering for someone else with the tales.
First it was due to the tales what had been labelled as an incident became even more suspicious.
Second the tales either were impossible to solve or didn't point at her as culprit as Ange never worries about them pointing at the maid. As they're public knowledge one would think people had tackled them, Tohya included, yet either he too didn't solve them or his tales also weren't solvable or he didn't make Yasu as the culprit.
Third, the official explanation given for Yasu writing the tales is that she wanted someone to understand her, not to cover for someone else. If you were to understand her through the tales and she's innocent the tales would reveal someone else is the culprit or, at best, wouldn't explain nothing about who's the culprit.

Mind you, I also dodn't think Yasu is the real culprit in Prime, though I don't know if that happened because:
a) she never planned it
b) she planned it but had second thoughts and gave up on her plan/something happened and someone else took away from her the role of culprit

There's too little to judge PrimeYasu but there's plenty to judge PieceYasu and, while PieceYasu might have lot of excuses for what she did, in the end they failed to present her as so pitiful we can say 'well, what she did was wrong but at the moment she couldn't do any better/she didn't know better/she wasn't in her right mind to do better'.

All I can say is that while Yasu had the potential to be pitied and sympathized the story didn't really work hard in that direction.
Even the revelation that she had her body mutilated is a random sentence at the end of Ep 7 which didn't really did her justice.
The coworkers are mean with her? That's bad but she also get special privileges and they have to take the blame for Yasu's mistakes (it's explained in the beginning that there's a share responsibility rule) and they've no reason to feel the need to care for Yasu who actually doesn't look that much bothered by their behaviour as she has Shannon.

At least Maria is represented as suffering for the lack of attentions from her mother, Sakutarou being only a palliative and even Ange suffered due to her classmates' behaviour even when she had the 7 sisters.

It's possible, even likely, that Yasu suffered too though apparently she didn't have it as hard as Ange or Maria and she's never really showed suffering like them.
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Old 2012-09-18, 14:51   Link #30652
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But Gameboard Yasu does not exist, We have no idea what she thinks ,what she wants . We only get glimpse of her thoughts in Ep7 and the last two years were skiped Because Will or Clair, I dont remember which said it that the last two years are not needed...So I understand you guys and I agree that we don't know anything about her.
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Old 2012-09-18, 15:08   Link #30653
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It's ridiculous. She's being a transcendent drama queen about what amounts to a story, a story she cannot even confirm. And then, if we go by the fantasy scenario, she gets an apology and a bazillion dollars. And is nevertheless motivated by something apparently completely unrelated to that anyway.
Why are you assuming that Yasu is unable to confirm what Genji tells her. You honestly think that if there is something seriously wrong with your body--like castration--it's "impossible" to verify? You have absolutely no proof that Genji wasn't able to substantiate his story, so judging Yasu on those grounds is pretty hilarious.

Who apologized to Yasu? Kinzo was crazy and was apologizing to Beatrice. Genji and Co seem to think the scene where Yasu is paraded up the stairs and forced to act the part of "Beatrice" as her coming into her "heritage", something to be lauded, not horrified over.

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She has no idea how good she has it, how much worse others have it, and how hard they try to cope regardless.
I guess you missed all the scenes in EP7 where Yasu specifically points out that no one is to blame for her situation, even Battler. Her method of coping is actually trying to think about others and how she can't "blame" them for her own pain, until it finally gets to be too much for her and she snaps. Even if the people around her "love" Yasu. Even if all the pain they put her through is unthinking and accidental... That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
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Old 2012-09-18, 15:25   Link #30654
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Why are you assuming that Yasu is unable to confirm what Genji tells her. You honestly think that if there is something seriously wrong with your body--like castration--it's "impossible" to verify? You have absolutely no proof that Genji wasn't able to substantiate his story, so judging Yasu on those grounds is pretty hilarious.
We didn't see it. Is it possible his claims are independently verifiable? Maybe. But the baby and its mother didn't even officially exist. Exactly how much confirmation is she going to get from non-biased sources?

You also don't actually know what, if anything, is wrong with Yasu. Because it was never said. Somebody proposed a workable alternative just within the last page or two, even. There could be nothing wrong physically. All we get is the mental reaction, and its specific cause is unclear. We have every rational reason to doubt it, if we are rational people.
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Old 2012-09-18, 15:28   Link #30655
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Okay, that characterization is a lot more twisted than anything that is ever said about Yasu. I know Bernkastel is meant to be twisted, but the way you put it, how exactly is she in the right here? Even if Yasu actually is a twisted, horrible, despicable, damned, satan's best pal, how the hell does that make Bern right here?
Who's in the right? Don't tell me miss 'Bribing and trying to sway the siblings into going along with a murder game' is not fucked up. I say I agree with her in the 'pitying a person doesn't mean I can forgive them for mass murdering my precious family, friends', and more like that 'Yasu's portrayal is so flimsy that forgiving her is just a moronic thing to do for Battler'.

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Um... EP3?
Wasn't that her furniture following her game of north wind and sun? Just look how everybody called her out, Virgilia, the one who helped her to cook the scheme, or Ronove, who's just one person and doesn't really care about the humans.

The one called out was EVA-Beatrice. Beato was just screwing with Battler, but because Battler went to depression she started to fall from her position. In EP4 Bernkastel had to make Ange a burger to make Battler firm enough to not forgive her! In other words, all those times he said in the past he 'was going to destroy her' were so meaningless he had to bathe in Ange's blood to keep figthing.

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And I'll say again that this is a whole lot more twisted. You know, when a person forgives the ones who crucified them and even spends their last breath pleading for them to be forgiven, it somehow belittles that noble action to say 'nope, those guys are unforgivable, you shouldn't forgive them so easily' (I'm really not trying to get religion dragged into this, just making an example, I'm an atheist).

To say that Bern is right for wanting to crush Beatrice because she cannot forgive her for something she did to OTHER people, just because she had something similar happen to her, and therefore cannot excuse Beatrice for not getting called on it is... at least irrational. Ask the people who get their asses blown, Battler forgave Beatrice, so Bern should just stay in Higurashi and dress up as a slutty cat or something.

I'm not trying to argue about Yasu being a tragic heroine instead of a murderer, I'm just pointing out that forgiveness isn't something to be taken so lightly. The way you put it, Bern is just a spoiled bitch (I know she is, but she's totally not right for it).
Bern is not right. She's trying to get into a scenary that is very similar to what she went through in her days trapped in a loop. And she's trying to win.

And people who forgive those who crucified them are called saints. A normal human would break hard under torture. Yeah, all humans have the ability to become saints and forgive. But rarely they go with that path. Normally they search a lawyer and try to give the bastard a shot. Or at least a life sentence.

Forgiveness isn't something a being like Bernkastel is known for. Not after all the shit thrown in her way. She cannot forgive, she cannot look at tales that talk about forgiving when she didn't got closure nor happiness because the doings of a woman she barely knew. Like the mayorty of people cannot look at a tale about rape if they were raped without some strong reaction.
Hm... that's a little strong, but I believe a hundred and more years of repeatedly being murdered and watch your family get murdered goes into insane shit that can't be really compared to anything that happens in life.


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I think Yasu is far more pitiable than Maria just for that reason. Maria can cope, she can even turn the shit life throws to her face into gold, and she should be proud of that. Yasu, the complete opposite who has no such ability is the pitiful one.
Yasu is making a storm about silly things. Maria was trying to go on with her life. Yasu had hope about someone else coming and solving her problems. Maria had hope about being strong and live her life happily, regardless of not being able to change her mother's violence.
A nine year old tried with all her might to live, and find love for her acknowledging herself if no one was going to love her.
A nineteen year old tried to find someone who would take her away and love her. She dreamed about being acknowledged... when people like George and Jessica acknowledged her already.

I can't help but respect and later feel pity about Maria's start in the black world of witches. I can't help but facepalm when talking about Yasu's overreactions.
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Old 2012-09-18, 15:40   Link #30656
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We didn't see it. Is it possible his claims are independently verifiable? Maybe. But the baby and its mother didn't even officially exist. Exactly how much confirmation is she going to get from non-biased sources?
For all you know, Genji had a DNA test done. Unlikely? Perhaps. But you constantly reiterate that there's No. Possible. Way. that Yasu could have had reason to believe Genji's claims, and then use that as a strike against her as a character, when, in reality, you have no idea what Genji actually told her or showed her.

We do know is that Yasu took the news about her body seriously; whatever is wrong would be visible to someone who attempted to have sexual intercourse with her; and that Yasu has no breasts to speak of, to the point where if discovered it would have nipped her plans in the bud. If you want to play dumb and pretend that 2+2=6, then that's your prerogative.

Either way, blaming a young teenager for daring to trust what a (supposedly) trustworthy adult tells her is pretty messed up, especially when the issues she faced have driven grown men and women to suicide.
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Old 2012-09-18, 15:46   Link #30657
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Most people aren't driven to take a dozen people or more with them.

Granted, I still don't believe she actually did it.
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Old 2012-09-18, 15:58   Link #30658
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Most people aren't driven to take a dozen people or more with them.
Most severely depressed and mentally unstable people don't have the detonation switch to a bomb, or have been told that said bomb was the key to "miraculous" success in what you wanted to accomplish.
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Old 2012-09-18, 16:05   Link #30659
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Who's in the right? Don't tell me miss 'Bribing and trying to sway the siblings into going along with a murder game' is not fucked up. I say I agree with her in the 'pitying a person doesn't mean I can forgive them for mass murdering my precious family, friends', and more like that 'Yasu's portrayal is so flimsy that forgiving her is just a moronic thing to do for Battler'.
And allow me to say that calling 'Battler a moron for forgiving Yasu' is more fucked up than everything. I'm not trying to pass Yasu off as a saint, because I am perfectly aware of all the sins (I also don't think she really committed, but let's stick to PieceYasu for argument's sake) she committed.

Quote:
Wasn't that her furniture following her game of north wind and sun? Just look how everybody called her out, Virgilia, the one who helped her to cook the scheme, or Ronove, who's just one person and doesn't really care about the humans.
You're not following what I mean by reffering to EP3. I was talking more about Battler slapping the shit out of Beatrice and doing exactly what you said 'call her on her selfishness'. Yeah, part of her strategy, but Battler calls her on it for real, and Beatrice is hurt by that for real.

Quote:
And people who forgive those who crucified them are called saints. A normal human would break hard under torture. Yeah, all humans have the ability to become saints and forgive. But rarely they go with that path. Normally they search a lawyer and try to give the bastard a shot. Or at least a life sentence.
Battler doesn't have to be a saint to forgive Beatrice, and I see how reffering to religion as an example was a bad idea, I just thought this was the best and most moving act of forgiveness there was to reffer to. Battler isn't a saint, but he isn't a moron either. Would it make for a better story if Battler took Beatrice to the Eisnere Jungfraw lawyers and had them confiscate every penny she owns in compensation through legal means? I don't think it would.

And at any rate, I'm not sure if it is even possible to make excuses for Yasu's actions. While I do understand the motive that's used to back it up, understanding is totally different from forgiving or even justifying. However, just because there is no excuse, it doesn't mean Battler, the person who is the target of her revenge (and everyone else, taking how they act in EP8) shouldn't forgive her. How can you call them stupid for that?

Quote:
Hm... that's a little strong, but I believe a hundred and more years of repeatedly being murdered and watch your family get murdered goes into insane shit that can't be really compared to anything that happens in life.
To that, I will agree. That is why I think Yasu's motive shouldn't be perceived along the lines of reality. Despite that, as far as Umineko's context is concerned, I find Yasu a very 'human' character.

Quote:
Yasu is making a storm about silly things. Maria was trying to go on with her life. Yasu had hope about someone else coming and solving her problems. Maria had hope about being strong and live her life happily, regardless of not being able to change her mother's violence.
But Maria did change her mother's violence. She changed it whenever she blamed it on the bad witch, or whenever she excused her mother for neglecting her. Maria isn't really going on with her life. She 'tweaks' the sad reality into a happy one, which is kinda the opposite. Having said that, I still don't find her pitiful or stupid for that.

Quote:
A nineteen year old tried to find someone who would take her away and love her. She dreamed about being acknowledged... when people like George and Jessica acknowledged her already.
Except what they acknowledge is nothing more than a facade Yasu puts up in order to hide her real self because she herself cannot find acceptance for it. Yasu isn't sure if they would do the same with her real self, and that's her real issue here. The fact that she is incapable of accepting herself is what renders her unable to be accepted by anyone else.
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Old 2012-09-18, 16:11   Link #30660
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You honestly think that if there is something seriously wrong with your body--like castration--it's "impossible" to verify?
Castration? Is that the reason Yasu snapped according to you? She was unable to love Battler because she didn't have balls? Was she seriously thinking that?

Of course there's quite a possibility that it's actually so, but that's absolutely retarded. I can't really sympathize with someone that makes a tragedy out of something that is completely unrelated to her real plight.

If he's a male, as you suggest, her incident has absolutely nothing to do with her inability to give heirs to George or to love Battler. Even if she was perfectly normal it wouldn't have changed a damn thing.

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...What makes you think Yasu was the culprit?
Apart the overwhelming evidence? The only way to claim that Yasu isn't the culprit is by drawing as a lie half of chiru, our confession and several parts of Ryuukishi's interviews. Sorry but I pass on that.

Naturally we're talking about the gameboards. Prime is another matter.
But really in my opinion Umineko wouldn't even make sense if Yasu wasn't the culprit of the games. The games in that case would be just pointless mysteries with absolutely no relation to what Umineko is actually about: Yasu's love and madness.
So let's even say that we are supposed to understand that the culprit is George or Rosa or Rudolf, but for what end? Who cares if Yasu wrote mysteries with random people as murders?


Regarding Shion, Ryuukishi certainly said that readers are free to sympathize or not with her, but frankly I think that was just because he didn't want to say that we are supposed to sympathize with a murderer. But as for himself I have little doubts that he sympathizes with her and that he wishes for people to do the same. The efforts he made in that direction are almost tangible.
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