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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 22 [END] Rating
Perfect 10 86 57.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 26.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 8.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.33%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.33%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.67%
Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-18, 09:37   Link #121
NCP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
I just want to say that the parade scene wasn't cheap really. In any case, the photography job done for that scene is fantastic, and functional to the narrative as well, so I don't see reason in criticising it.
Yes, this is very true. In fact, that parade scene was so complex that I find it hard to understand how someone could describe it as anything close to low-budget. That 'onion-like' effect you mentioned was the result of Kyoani intentionally ghosting their drawings along with a blur effect. In addition to that, there seemed to be a high-contrast filter or two used along with some pretty saturated paintwork.

The logistics of this scene must have been an absolute nightmare for the photography directer, digital composition team, and digital paint people to work out. Just the simulated ghosting effect would have taken a ton of work. To create that effect, the 'ghosted' images would have to be overlaid over the normal drawings. Then would come managing the transparency level of those 'ghosted' layers for every single frame. In addition, a blur effect would have to be added for every overlay in order for the transitions to be more seamless. While all this is happening the 'normal' drawings would be proceeding as usual, which requires that all the overlays be precisely placed so that they match up with the next frames. And while they're working on all of that, they also have to make sure that the filters they are using fit properly with the paint color scheme to ensure that they mesh properly and achieve the desired effect.

To call that scene "cheap" or "low-budget" without making any attempt to understand its complexity is simply ignorant. I mean really, I find that someone could so casually and off-handedly dismiss such a large amount of hard work and effort with some asinine comment like "trolling" to be incredibly insulting, and I didn't even spend a second of my time working on the show!

I think it's a real shame that some people are missing the function and meaning behind all these directorial and cinematographic decisions, because clearly, Kyoani is putting in all that effort for our benefit. They're doing it so that we can not only see but really feel the emotions of these characters and their experiences. And while I can't speak for others, I myself can say that I am appreciative of every second of it.

Last edited by NCP; 2012-09-18 at 09:48.
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Old 2012-09-18, 10:16   Link #122
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I think it's a real shame that some people are missing the function and meaning behind all these directorial and cinematographic decisions, because clearly, Kyoani is putting in all that effort for our benefit. They're doing it so that we can not only see but really feel the emotions of these characters and their experiences. And while I can't speak for others, I myself can say that I am appreciative of every second of it.
Couldn't agree with you more on this. Hyouka is truly the kind of series that was made with love. The creative team did their best so that you could feel everything that was there, as if something more than your sense of vision and hearing were you connecting you to the show. The way show progresses, how nothing is ever explicitly told to the viewer other than the solutions to the "mysteries", shows that you can't simply digest what you see. Everything is made so that you can understand everything through sheer emotions. You don't need to have someone telling you what Hyouka is all about. You could say it's like a beautiful woman kissing your lips: she's not saying anything, but you can understand the message through her gesture.
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Old 2012-09-18, 11:10   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich666 View Post
For me that was not closure at all.. (I know it's slice of life but there are simply many other slice-of-life animes that are much much better)

Flaws of final episode:
- for the last episode, there was too much time of nonimportant and uninteresting scenes in preparation of parade part.
- main characters other than Oreki are barely seen for almost half episode.
- instead we are presented with dull slowpace talk of first-seen side-characters during parade preparations. No emotions for me - why should I care for them I am seeing them for the first time.
- why do we have to watch babbling of several old men and their unsubstantial dispute about correct route parade should go, why? why introduce red-head boy (or brown hair whatever) in the last episode - that doesn't make sense.
- KyoAni trolling again with ugly animation of parade (if that was animation at all - discarding every second, third and fourth frame). It felt very low-budgety comparing to other parts of the series. And no, I am not seeing it as brilliant choice of mood - for that, I have seen it too many times elsewhere...
- ending scene was graphically nice and well done, yes, but chitanda's talk about her plans of going to college was sort of branching away from main theme they should talk - her relationship with oreki. this was again, uninteresting to me. Why there wasn't some sort of intimate confession under sakura tree, just why? Wasted potential of the scene, if you ask me. Yes, you could see that as normal life when two of very close boy-girl students have some feelings for each other but have to go away and never see themselfs again due to other circumstances - but is that really the story we want to see in the first place? (if yes, watch masterpieces from makoto shinkai, this one felt very dull)

As it is, it was very unsatisfying conclusion to Hyouka story for me (if there was any conclusion at all). If you ask me, everything in this ep could be done a ton better.

All in all, it felt like authors of this show really didn't know what to do with it in the first place. There were too many themes, many unnecessary mystery arcs if you ask me. In result, some eps was great, some wasn't at all. If everything was like ep14, 20 or 21 I would give it 9 out of 10 but it was nowhere to it and now I really don't know what I should think of it as whole.

Does anyone know how Hyouka was doing in Japan? I can't see this getting second season at all...
You might be expecting a bit too much. This is a story that has been adapted from a novel that in around 9 to 10 years, only has 5 volumes. Every chapter is an ode to British mystery novels of yore (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Dame Agatha Christie are mentioned quite a lot in the series) where countless characters appear in each mystery, some might not seem to be important but at the end usually helps ties everything together.

Character's growth meanwhile are slow but logical. You don't have that rushed relationship you usually have. In lieu of the last episode, Oreki only realised there and then that he actually liked Eru, but kept it to himself. Would you blurt out a confession out of the blue the moment you realised you like someone? I doubt it right. You'd take your time to handle your feelings first, as what both Eru and Oreki are doing.

We are (were) promised by the author that Hyouka would resume until they finish school or even up to their college years, and looking at the pace of the novel that's a long way to go yet. So there is no rushing things at the moment.
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Old 2012-09-18, 11:27   Link #124
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I want to thank Mich666 for being strong enough to lay his/her opinions out so clearly out for a group here that was obviously thinking in opposite terms. As one of those who loved the show, and especially this final episode, it was fun and beneficial to have to think about differing opinions.

That being said, the only opinion I agree with is his/her praise of Shinkai Makoto. For me, this show raised KyoAni (at least this main staff and the Osaka branch, which apparently made this show) close to Shinkai's aesthetic level. (Actually above the level of his most recent film, Hoshi o Ou Kodomo. But maybe that's just because I wasn't into that subject matter.)

I also want to thank Mich666 for stimulating these wonderful replies, which are so interesting and with all of which I find myself agreeing. I love romance, and certainly would have liked a real confession, but as I rewatch and re-feel this episode, I find myself thinking this is better. Instead of a neat little package, we have the opening up of a big world.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2012-09-18 at 12:02.
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Old 2012-09-18, 13:52   Link #125
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The Osaka branch (Animation DO) made a couple of episodes, by subcontract (though I shouldn't really call it subcontract work since they're basically a child company of Kyoani). They did episodes 2, 7, 15 and 21 if I'm not mistaken.

I haven't watched anything by Makoto Shinkai so I won't compare, but it's certainly true that as far as photography, composition and post-processing go, Hyouka is Kyoani at its peak. Animation, not so much, I prefer K-On in the depiction of low-key expression and Nichijou for just pure raw greatness, but this series is still one of their top works, full of movement and life. It shows that they were not reluctantly assigned to adapt a popular LN for Kadokawa to cash in, but instead they (Takemoto) chose to do this out of their own will, for the most part. I think that is important in why their shows seem so polished and wonderful sometimes; it wouldn't be the same if they had to accept projects nobody on the studio wants to take just for cash. It's a very subjective and debatable perception, but it always seemed to me that Kyoani put less effort into their Key shows. K-On!, Haruhi, LS, Nichijou and Hyouka seem almost artesanal in how they are crafted, but the Key trilogy is just astoundingly beautiful in a slightly more artificial way. Perhaps I'm imagining things, but that's how I always saw it.

On another topic, I'd say that Hyouka is a step up not only in photography, but in the script too. Of course a lot of the dialogue was already in the source material, but this script (helmed by Shoji Gatoh) is a very tight and precise adaption that managed to maintain a lot of nuance and subtlety (something I didn't really find in the volume I read of the original novel) without losing substance. Something truly interesting here is that two scriptwriters for the show were previously in-between animators at Kyoani, namely Maiko Nishioka and Miyuki Egami. They seem to have been promoted from in-between animation to scriptwriting; Nishioka had already scripted episodes of Nichijou, while Egami seems to have started writing in Hyouka. It's interesting to see Kyoani looking for writers even in the most unexpected places.
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Old 2012-09-18, 13:55   Link #126
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I'm glad i wasn't the only one thinking of Shinkai because that last scene definitely reminded me of his art in 5 Centimeters Per Second.

Not much to say that hasn't been already said. Thought it was a solid finale for what has been a great series.
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Old 2012-09-18, 14:16   Link #127
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by linkinstreet View Post
Character's growth meanwhile are slow but logical. You don't have that rushed relationship you usually have. In lieu of the last episode, Oreki only realised there and then that he actually liked Eru, but kept it to himself. Would you blurt out a confession out of the blue the moment you realised you like someone? I doubt it right. You'd take your time to handle your feelings first, as what both Eru and Oreki are doing.
Yeah. In a lot of anime, the confession is the alpha and omega of a love story. One part confesses, the other accept, and then they... live happily ever after, I guess? Or maybe one or both die. We're not really supposed to care.

Here, it's a love story that deals with the past (the old attitude, the old wounds and fears Houtarou has to give up) and, much more importantly, the future. Because Eru isn't just Eru. She's also the heir to the Chitanda family, and her future is already set. If Houtarou wants her, he has to want all of her. And he's barely started getting acquainted with that aspect of her. Which intimidates the hell out of him, to boot.
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Old 2012-09-18, 15:31   Link #128
taichi-kun
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hey.. don't you think chitanda looked sad when she talked about her place...?

I don't know why but I felt sad just by watching her face...

And why did she want to show her place to oreki ..?

I want more hyouka
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Old 2012-09-18, 16:20   Link #129
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The sadness in Chitandas eyes as she exposed more of her world to Oreki I'd say is really most of all her fear, knowing of course how much different their lives and pasts are, and as such the fear she has that as she knows what kind of person she is and what life she's lead, that she was greatly afraid of how Oreki would understand how her life works. If even, at all, accept and want to be part of it.

It's obvious that she likes him, but she's afraid of how different she is from him, from most of everyone else, and she knows that this divide exists. Just like the two villages, she tries her best to bridge the gap, but she's afraid if OReki would be willing to meet her half way, or if he'd even be willing to be waiting at the other side of the river.

Personally I don't think she needs to be afraid. Oreki's been bridging his part of this gap since day 1, whether he knew it at the time or not. Perhaps Chitanda knew this already, but she likewise felt the need to expose more of her life to him so that he knew exactly what he was getting himself into. But now he knows, and the end of the episode, his silence implied he was willing to continue bridging the gap in his own, Oreki-like way.
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Old 2012-09-18, 16:43   Link #130
Anh_Minh
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Still, it's a lot to lay on a guy. Not just the different lifestyles. What if he can't wait to leave the town and never look back? I'm sure he wouldn't be the first.
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Old 2012-09-18, 16:49   Link #131
MeoTwister5
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Still, given how much they've become close over that year and how she's willing to confide in him, I think she trusts him enough to know that he at least won't suddenly bolt away like a terrified animal. And knowing him he more likely won't.

I think.
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Old 2012-09-18, 18:59   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Still, it's a lot to lay on a guy. Not just the different lifestyles. What if he can't wait to leave the town and never look back? I'm sure he wouldn't be the first.
We have had no sense of him having any ambitions inside or outside of the city he grew up in, so I don't think this is going to be an issue. Indeed, the only thinking we've seen him have regarding a career is the daydreamed confession to Chitanda, which I think speaks volumes.
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Old 2012-09-18, 21:31   Link #133
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I loved the animation, and Chitanda's lines (spoken and visual ) were as great as ever, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to take the extreme minority position and say no, I didn't care for this episode... What can I say? As I get older, I'm less and less tolerant of male lead roles in most anime.

In years past I never picked up on it, nor did it bother me, but these days I'm highly annoyed by internal dialog for things best spoken, indecisiveness that causes pain for others, or conflict avoidance when it's best to stand your ground regardless of your opponent's title/status. Yes, yes, I know much of it is probably cultural, but that doesn't stop me from yelling at my TV like a moron. Beta male leads that display all the testicular fortitude of a wet sandwich make my spine twist in knots.

There are refreshing exceptions to the rule though... For example, Otonashi from Angel Beats was a man's man. He really pulled out the big guns at the end, and I admire that.
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Old 2012-09-18, 23:45   Link #134
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Spoiler for ...a stranger's reply...:

...im missing this show already...
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Old 2012-09-19, 01:14   Link #135
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
We have had no sense of him having any ambitions inside or outside of the city he grew up in, so I don't think this is going to be an issue. Indeed, the only thinking we've seen him have regarding a career is the daydreamed confession to Chitanda, which I think speaks volumes.
But Eru doesn't have our perspective.

And Houtarou always looks bored. What if he wants a different life, away from his old one? Sure, we know it's not the case. But I'm sure she's heard of plenty of kids who went to university in some big city and never came back, or only for holidays and such.
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Old 2012-09-19, 07:29   Link #136
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But Eru doesn't have our perspective.

And Houtarou always looks bored. What if he wants a different life, away from his old one? Sure, we know it's not the case. But I'm sure she's heard of plenty of kids who went to university in some big city and never came back, or only for holidays and such.
Oh, I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood your post. From Chitanda's perspective, I agree she was very brave to be so honest. But from the viewer's perspective, the issue of constrained horizons isn't such a big deal for Houtarou. I think in a lot of ways Chitanda doesn't understand how different Houtarou was before he met her, because from the beginning he's indulging her curiosity.
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Old 2012-09-19, 11:18   Link #137
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Let me take some cracks at this. I get most of the points, but as for these...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich666 View Post
For me that was not closure at all.. (I know it's slice of life but there are simply many other slice-of-life animes that are much much better)
Like I said, I prefer plotholed open ends that don't try to be overly emotional (like Anohana) to those FMA: Brotherhood endings that try to wrap everything up at once to the point that it's just pandering. Give me a California Crisis or Mushishi-style anti-climax ending any day.

Quote:
but is that really the story we want to see in the first place? (if yes, watch masterpieces from makoto shinkai, this one felt very dull)
Yeah...no. I've hated nearly everything Shinkai has done, especially 5 cm. That ending was just awful in my biased opinion, plus the characters had no personality.
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Old 2012-09-19, 11:44   Link #138
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You know, it occurred to me that Houtarou being a businessman may make him one heck of a magnificent bastard. If his wheelings and dealings in school are any indication... A jerkass protagonist if you will. Even better if Irisu becomes a "friendly" competitor.

Irisu: "Don't take it personally. It's just business"
Houtarou: "IRISUUUU!"

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Old 2012-09-19, 12:10   Link #139
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I think Oreki is in love... butterflies flew in my stomach when he say Chitanda dressed as the empress!

I really hope there is a season 2, I seriously want to see those two together!
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Old 2012-09-19, 12:36   Link #140
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beautiful episode.
I just being killed by looking at Chitanda in this episode.

and wonder Oreki got said it out loud? or just planning to said then stop by the "huh"?

but one thing, it kind of look sad from Chitanda face when talking about her own future, and when she talking about her place to oreki, she look worry too, is that a indirect confession!? hope both of them can be together,.

a beautiful ending but still sad to see it come to the end, no more Chitanda

overall was a great anime, need more!

-----
btw, so Im not the only one that certain screen remind me of 5cm
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