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Old 2012-09-18, 16:15   Link #30661
musouka
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Castration? Is that the reason Yasu snapped according to you? She was unable to love Battler because she didn't have balls? Was she seriously thinking that?

Of course there's quite a possibility that it's actually so, but that's absolutely retarded. I can't really sympathize with someone that makes a tragedy out of something that is completely unrelated to her plight.
If you can't understand why someone would be horrified and upset upon gaining proof that they have been raised a different gender from their birth, and what that would do to their romantic prospects--especially considering how men tend to react to trans* individuals--then I can only assume you live in a different world from the rest of us. Must be nice.

Of course, you're making the mistake everyone does, assuming that Yasu's goal RE: Battler was romantic in nature.
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Old 2012-09-18, 16:28   Link #30662
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
If you can't understand why someone would be horrified and upset upon gaining proof that they have been raised a different gender from their birth, and what that would do to their romantic prospects--especially considering how men tend to react to trans* individuals--then I can only assume you live in a different world from the rest of us. Must be nice.
Gaining proof? She must have realized that by himself at one point long time before 1986 unless he was completely retarded.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with her decision. People don't decide to kill an entire family because of that, and Yasu, as crazy as he was, didn't either.

You're point is moot anyway. I'm talking about overreactions here. Unless you can argue that it is understandable for a transexual to become a psycopath, Yasu is still a very unsympathetic person.

I know about three different cases of children that lost their penis and were raised as girls. Two of these cases adapted to their reassigned sex without problems, the remaining didn't and he had psychological problems throughout his life. In the end he killed himself, but he didn't drag anyone with himself.

But Yasu's cases is different from that one, because Yasu has clearly a female personality, meaning that he adapted. He doesn't have any excuse.
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Old 2012-09-18, 16:31   Link #30663
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
And allow me to say that calling 'Battler a moron for forgiving Yasu' is more fucked up than everything. I'm not trying to pass Yasu off as a saint, because I am perfectly aware of all the sins (I also don't think she really committed, but let's stick to PieceYasu for argument's sake) she committed.
Boyfriend forgot his promise to bring a white horse and take me away? -> Let's murder his family and make him watch.

Girl who I don't even remember murdered my family and made me watch? -> Let's marry her.

Conclusion1: Are you fucking kidding me, Ryuukishi?

Conclusion2: I don't even know who deserves more to be called a moron.

Sick things are sick. No matter what side you take, you're gonna be siding with some fucked up individual.

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You're not following what I mean by reffering to EP3. I was talking more about Battler slapping the shit out of Beatrice and doing exactly what you said 'call her on her selfishness'. Yeah, part of her strategy, but Battler calls her on it for real, and Beatrice is hurt by that for real.
And she was so surprised and depressed by someone telling her off that she got into a freaking coma. Why? oh, why am I hated? In what did I got it wrong? O-Oooh. So killing his family wasn't a good thing to do. Who would've thought that?

My reaction: refer to conclusion 1.

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Battler doesn't have to be a saint to forgive Beatrice, and I see how reffering to religion as an example was a bad idea, I just thought this was the best and most moving act of forgiveness there was to reffer to. Battler isn't a saint, but he isn't a moron either. Would it make for a better story if Battler took Beatrice to the Eisnere Jungfraw lawyers and had them confiscate every penny she owns in compensation through legal means? I don't think it would.
Some guy you don't know goes and blows you home with all your family and familiars inside. The incident causes you to lose it, amnesia, attacks, despair and ending in a wheelchair. Yoir little sister grows as damaged as they get and then returns to the gameboard. And then she's also killed.

You have to be Jesus, capitain. You have to be Jesus to forgive that. I can barely forgive the guy that ran over my aunt and made her almost lose her life because he was drunk. I'd go all Sasuke on the responsible's ass if something as strong as Rokkenjima's big bang happened. Then again, I don't consider myself the best human in the street.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
And at any rate, I'm not sure if it is even possible to make excuses for Yasu's actions. While I do understand the motive that's used to back it up, understanding is totally different from forgiving or even justifying. However, just because there is no excuse, it doesn't mean Battler, the person who is the target of her revenge (and everyone else, taking how they act in EP8) shouldn't forgive her. How can you call them stupid for that?
She goes so sad she vaporizes into gold dust. I could FORGIVE her. I could nor MARRY HER!

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
To that, I will agree. That is why I think Yasu's motive shouldn't be perceived along the lines of reality. Despite that, as far as Umineko's context is concerned, I find Yasu a very 'human' character.
But Yasu's motive is talked about as the thing that started everything. Is the core of Umineko, the culprit of Ryuukishi hammering into my head 'search for the heart' so much I started to joke Eva-Beatrice was the first to find it in EP3.
I can be dissapointed by a lot of things and let them pass, but the motive of mass murder has to be a pretty damn good one.

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But Maria did change her mother's violence. She changed it whenever she blamed it on the bad witch, or whenever she excused her mother for neglecting her. Maria isn't really going on with her life. She 'tweaks' the sad reality into a happy one, which is kinda the opposite. Having said that, I still don't find her pitiful or stupid for that.
No matter how she embelished the reality, she could not make Rosa stop. She would get hit, even if she justified. Maria is going on with her life tweaking the horrible parts. If she didn't do that, she'd get stuck like Ange. Ange was stuck in the past because she couldn't go on, she had to learn to let things go, and if things were so horrible, tweak them into something bereable like 'There were no murders. Onii-chan is going to return one day'.

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Except what they acknowledge is nothing more than a facade Yasu puts up in order to hide her real self because she herself cannot find acceptance for it. Yasu isn't sure if they would do the same with her real self, and that's her real issue here. The fact that she is incapable of accepting herself is what renders her unable to be accepted by anyone else.
She is incapable of accepting herself. So she is accepted by George. She has his full devotion, and he's ready to hang himself for her if she asks him. Jessica is trying hard to understand her. She has an unbeliebable amount of acknowledging, much more than Maria, Rosa, Natsuhi or Eva.
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Old 2012-09-18, 16:35   Link #30664
musouka
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Gaining proof? She must have realized that by himself at one point long time before 1986 unless he was completely retarded.
Yasu probably suspected there was something wrong with her body, but that's a far cry from "we castrated you and isolated you from living with your peers to hide it after you fell off a cliff because we were afraid your dad might rape you just like he raped your mom. BUT LOOK AT ALL THE SHINY GOLD YOU HAVE!"

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You're point is moot anyway. I'm talking about overreactions here. Unless you can argue that it is understandable for a transexual to become a psycopath, Yasu is still a very unsympathetic person.
I think it's understandable for anyone to go crazy after being faced with that level of lying and manipulation from people she had previously trusted. But make no mistake, Yasu is screaming in agony over them allowing her to live when her body is "like this" in the red guts scene. That should probably be a pretty big hint as to how she felt about it.
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Old 2012-09-18, 16:44   Link #30665
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Yasu probably suspected there was something wrong with her body, but that's a far cry from "we castrated you and isolated you from living with your peers to hide it after you fell off a cliff because we were afraid your dad might rape you just like he raped your mom. BUT LOOK AT ALL THE SHINY GOLD YOU HAVE!"
Nobody castrated Yasu, Nanjo saved that child's life. And Yasu blamed him for doing what his oath required him to do.


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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
I think it's understandable for anyone to go crazy after being faced with that level of lying and manipulation from people she had previously trusted. But make no mistake, Yasu is screaming in agony over them allowing her to live when her body is "like this" in the red guts scene. That should probably be a pretty big hint as to how she felt about it.
My point is that she overreacted, not that she didn't feel bad.

And anyway this still has nothing to do with Yasu becoming a murderer.
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Old 2012-09-18, 17:04   Link #30666
musouka
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Nobody castrated Yasu, Nanjo saved that child's life. And Yasu blamed him for doing what his oath required him to do.
Yes, such a pity the Hippocratic Oath requires medical practitioners to avoid telling a person the truth about their body and family situation for nearly two decades. Oh, wait...

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
My point is that she overreacted, not that she didn't feel bad.
How dare she make those people feel bad for lying to her for her entire life!

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And anyway this still has nothing to do with Yasu becoming a murderer.
The reason for Yasu's mindset that allowed her to write elaborate murder mysteries and flip the trigger on a bomb that eventually blew up the island has nothing to do with her...motivation for writing elaborate murder mysteries and flipping the switch to the bomb that would eventually blow up the island? If you say so.
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Old 2012-09-18, 17:08   Link #30667
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Boyfriend forgot his promise to bring a white horse and take me away? -> Let's murder his family and make him watch.

Girl who I don't even remember murdered my family and made me watch? -> Let's marry her.
Anything would sound stupid if you summarized it in one sentence. Especially Umineko. 'Boyfriend forgot his pony' doesn't even start to explain Yasu's motive.

Quote:
Some guy you don't know goes and blows you home with all your family and familiars inside. The incident causes you to lose it, amnesia, attacks, despair and ending in a wheelchair. Yoir little sister grows as damaged as they get and then returns to the gameboard. And then she's also killed.

You have to be Jesus, capitain. You have to be Jesus to forgive that. I can barely forgive the guy that ran over my aunt and made her almost lose her life because he was drunk. I'd go all Sasuke on the responsible's ass if something as strong as Rokkenjima's big bang happened. Then again, I don't consider myself the best human in the street.
I don't disagree with you, nor am I saying I would forgive any of it so easily. However, that is not a valid reason to argue against the fact that I would admire the shit out of the person who would do so instead of calling them stupid. Forgiving people who wronged you is stupid instead of noble? I thing that assesment is the most fucked up thing here.

Quote:
But Yasu's motive is talked about as the thing that started everything. Is the core of Umineko, the culprit of Ryuukishi hammering into my head 'search for the heart' so much I started to joke Eva-Beatrice was the first to find it in EP3.
I can be dissapointed by a lot of things and let them pass, but the motive of mass murder has to be a pretty damn good one.
There really is no excuse for mass murder. None. Nothing justifies taking the life of another human being. I'm willing to be a bit more lenient since this is fiction we're talking about, meaning some of the things discussed in Umineko do not reflect real life.

The motive for mass-murder is not the excuse for mass-murder. Heck, Sweeney Todd is one of the saddest fictional-people, I say, serves those bastards right to be turned into pies, but I still think he saw what he had coming. The motive for a crime can let you have insight on where another human being went wrong. And I think no matter what the crime, everyone should have the right to be forgiven.

If you are not willing to accept the author's choice of motive here, that's your opinion, and clearly I can't disagree with you there, even if my opinion's the total opposite. Neither can I say anything to you when you think it can't 'justify' murder, because even I who does accept it find it stretched. However, disagreeing with it because it cannot 'excuse' murder is where I draw the line. Murder can be justified but not excused.

Quote:
She is incapable of accepting herself. So she is accepted by George. She has his full devotion, and he's ready to hang himself for her if she asks him. Jessica is trying hard to understand her. She has an unbeliebable amount of acknowledging, much more than Maria, Rosa, Natsuhi or Eva.
You don't get what I'm saying. George and Jessica do accept her personas. Yasu doesn't let them know her real self because she's afraid they will not accept it. She hides behind the veil of her own facades. The fact that George accepts Shannon does not mean he will accept Yasuda. It is not hear real self that is being accepted here. Frankly, it's mostly her own fault (maybe we can also attribute some of it to the experiences that led her to think this way, but mostly, it's her own issue). However, in all fairness, she at least has a reason to feel insecure, because she cannot give George the future he dreams of.
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Old 2012-09-18, 17:23   Link #30668
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
I think it's understandable for anyone to go crazy after being faced with that level of lying and manipulation from people she had previously trusted.
"Murder a bunch of people who had nothing to do with it" crazy, though? I do not buy that for a second.

To believe a person irrational enough to kill themselves is one thing. To believe them both irrational and hopelessly callous to people who have never wronged them is another matter entirely and I sincerely believe that someone who is characterized the way she is characterized would stop herself from such madness, even if resolved to commit suicide.

Remember, even if we assume all the adults have somehow done her wrong, and all the servants, and Battler (which is stupid, but I'm accepting your premise on its face here), as far as I can tell Maria/Jessica/George never have. And probably Hideyoshi.

I can somewhat accept "these people have wronged me or wronged my family or lied to me, I don't care what happens to them." But there are people there she cares about and who have done their damndest not to hurt her, at least so far as we (and she) seem to know or care about. To cross the line further and say "I don't care what happens to them either" is the act not of a person in despair, but of an utter monster.

And she is not characterized as a monster, nor does anyone accept it when she portrays herself that way. Which leads me to believe that, when worse came to worse, I don't think she could bring herself to harm those people. Apparently, she couldn't bring herself to harm Battler... or else Battler just coincidentally happened to get away, but that doesn't seem like it'd be a satisfying resolution at all. Plus Eva. There shouldn't have been any survivors if her execution were as professional as Beatrice's.

I think she's just not capable of doing that outside of the stories. She has trouble doing it within them.
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Old 2012-09-18, 17:35   Link #30669
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Anything would sound stupid if you summarized it in one sentence. Especially Umineko. 'Boyfriend forgot his pony' doesn't even start to explain Yasu's motive.
The specific reason the massacre was ignited was for Battler's return. What did the poor sod do to get what he got, again? Giving her a childish promise of being his boybriend six years ago, promise that everyone (the maids, Jessica) stated (indirectly) was stupid to believe.

The logical retribution, of course, was to blow everyone in his face...
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I don't disagree with you, nor am I saying I would forgive any of it so easily. However, that is not a valid reason to argue against the fact that I would admire the shit out of the person who would do so instead of calling them stupid. Forgiving people who wronged you is stupid instead of noble? I thing that assesment is the most fucked up thing here.
I'm not saying he doesn't have guts and heart for doing such a thing. I'm saying that everyone forgives her and live happily ever after. Even Eva. Natsuhi. Krauss. Rudolf. Kyrie... c'mon. Nobody here a little resenful of being massacred? Hm... Eva is a bad person like me, and she has some beef against the maid anyway. You sure that poor woman whose life went to hell forgave Yasu? Apparently yes: in later episodes we see Eva perfecly allright asking forgiveness for being a bad PTSD, grieving aunt to Ange. Not even a 'You killed my family!'. What does Battler and Beatrice think the world is?!

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There really is no excuse for mass murder. None. Nothing justifies taking the life of another human being. I'm willing to be a bit more lenient since this is fiction we're talking about, meaning some of the things discussed in Umineko do not reflect real life.

The motive for mass-murder is not the excuse for mass-murder. Heck, Sweeney Todd is one of the saddest fictional-people, I say, serves those bastards right to be turned into pies, but I still think he saw what he had coming. The motive for a crime can let you have insight on where another human being went wrong. And I think no matter what the crime, everyone should have the right to be forgiven.

If you are not willing to accept the author's choice of motive here, that's your opinion, and clearly I can't disagree with you there, even if my opinion's the total opposite. Neither can I say anything to you when you think it can't 'justify' murder, because even I who does accept it find it stretched. However, disagreeing with it because it cannot 'excuse' murder is where I draw the line. Murder can be justified but not excused.
I mean a motive that makes me at least feel like you felt with Sweeney. Or Shion. She ended as a spot in the paviment. I didn't even think it was unfair after everything she did. But I could understand where she was coming from, and her motive for going mass murderer was covered for every aspect so throughly I believed it and felt a logic and convincing plot there.

Mass murder Is not excusable. But Yasu's motive is so weird and shady it's like she wanted to blow something and things went bad from there. So.. like an excuse. "Not my fault even if i say it was... forgive me for starting this madness?"

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You don't get what I'm saying. George and Jessica do accept her personas. Yasu doesn't let them know her real self because she's afraid they will not accept it. She hides behind the veil of her own facades. The fact that George accepts Shannon does not mean he will accept Yasuda. It is not hear real self that is being accepted here. Frankly, it's mostly her own fault (maybe we can also attribute some of it to the experiences that led her to think this way, but mostly, it's her own issue). However, in all fairness, she at least has a reason to feel insecure, because she cannot give George the future he dreams of.
"If Yasu showed George the truth, she would be surprised at his response" thats word of god. But she didn't. Instead of taking the options she had (confess, retire, convince, take a leap of faith or stay with Jessica as she anyway wanted) she took... mass murder.

I've felt insecure, I'm sure you too, and all the others in this discussion. For the ones who have already *ahem* went at it with their lovers: Oi! You there felt insecure when showing yourself for the first time to that special person? Did you had second thoughts? Maybe... don't know... like your only option was to blow away an island with 16 guys in it yourself included?
I say nay...

But going serious: you don't think about killing a lot of people because you are afraid your boyfriend is not going to like your body. And if you do, go to the nearest mental hospital and do us a favor locking yourself up before something happens.
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Old 2012-09-18, 19:04   Link #30670
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But Gameboard Yasu does not exist, We have no idea what she thinks ,what she wants . We only get glimpse of her thoughts in Ep7 and the last two years were skiped Because Will or Clair, I dont remember which said it that the last two years are not needed...So I understand you guys and I agree that we don't know anything about her.
Actually the one about which we don't know things is PrimeYasu. The best we know about PrimeYasu is that she might have been the author of Ep 1 & 2, of which we aren't sure as we've no proofs Ep 2 is the second tale in the bottle nor we know if the two tales were told faithfully as they could be read in the messages or were embellished.

The one we 'deal with' is PieceYasu who commits the murders on the gameboard and whose story is told in Ep 7. PrimeYasu's real story might have had some common elements but we really don't know if it's the same. PieceYasu surely decided to commit murders and then kill herself and destroy the island. Can we say the same for PrimeYasu? We don't know. She might have, she might have not.

We don't even know if PrimeYasu was really Kanon & Shannon or the idea to represent herself as two servants was merely metaphorical, we don't know if PrimeYasu played Kanon's role at Jessica's school with Jessica knowing it was Yasu/Shannon in truth, we don't know if George really planned to ask Shannon to marry him or it was just an one sided thing from Yasu/Shannon, just to name a couple of things that are rather important for Yasu.

Note also that PieceShannon and PieceKanon are strongly in love with George and Jessica and willing to off each other to fulfil their wish. Can the same be said for their Prime versions or they're just a metaphor of a wish of being a certain type of person?

If we assume that PrimeYasu never meant to kill anyone, her intention contrasting sharply with PieceYasu who meant to make a mass murder we've to assume what we learnt on the gameboard about PieceYasu didn't necessary apply to PrimeYasu. Otherwise, if they're the same, they shared the same murdering intention.

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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Why are you assuming that Yasu is unable to confirm what Genji tells her. You honestly think that if there is something seriously wrong with your body--like castration--it's "impossible" to verify? You have absolutely no proof that Genji wasn't able to substantiate his story, so judging Yasu on those grounds is pretty hilarious.
Well, Umineko is pretty vague in how and when Yasu learnt about her body mutilation.

If in all those years didn't realize it either she's very ignorant on anatomy or it's something that can't be seen first glance (if she had a uterus and it was removed/damaged, well at best you'll notice a scar that you won't necessarily connect to a missing/damaged uterus).

If she could already realize herself what had happened to her, Genji told her nothing new... but somehow Umineko seems to imply she discovered it only right then and not before as apparently it's in that moment she start to consider herself as furniture.

Anyway, Genji apparently told her something she hadn't realized herself. So to confirm it either she can start studying anatomy or needs to go to a doctor to check.

Now, apparently her problem is a delicate issue so she might not be so willing to go have it checked by a doctor especially since likely she was told there was no way to fix it.

Genji making up such a story for some unknown reason seems hard to picture so really, the only reason I can see for Yasu to check Genji's words is because she's either lacking faith in him or she's delusional. In either way it requires a certain amount of guts to face her problems which I can't see Yasu having.

So I don't think it's likely Yasu would check Genji's story about her injury.
What Genji might have lied about though, willing or by mistake, is about Natsuhi causing her to fall from a cliff. Yasu evidently found out and believed Natsuhi did it on purpose. Genji wasn't there to check if Natsuhi did it on purpose and not even Natsuhi is that reliable as she was in a peculiar state of mind.

This is something Yasu can't know for sure as well as she can't know for sure she's really Kinzo's daughter without a DNA test.

Genji might have told her that story just because he wanted to make Kinzo happy before he were to die.

Through all this is apparently unimportant as, according to Yasu, that's not why she's doing things. So either she's lying or her injury, her fall and her birth aren't as important as Battler breaking is promise is.

I like to think they are but that's not what Beatrice insist is her motive. Her motive is Battler forgetting his promise... though if Battler had remembered it she wouldn't have turned into Lion. She would have still been an incest baby, tossed off a cliff by Natsuhi and mutilated.

But hey, at 13 she would have been living on her own in a big city, working and studying and maybe seeing Battler at school and when she was off duty and maybe Battler might have decided to date her... or he might have dumped her as his promised required only to go get Yasu, not to devote his life to her. But hey, the fact he would have kept it would have really changed things for Yasu.
Now, instead than 10 tons of gold and a bomb to blast everyone she should have used something else to off 18 people once she were to realize her life wasn't a bowl of cherries.

I'm being sarcastic so it sounds mean but really, Yasu's motive should have been explained better otherwise what's said isn't enough to justify her actions.

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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Who apologized to Yasu? Kinzo was crazy and was apologizing to Beatrice. Genji and Co seem to think the scene where Yasu is paraded up the stairs and forced to act the part of "Beatrice" as her coming into her "heritage", something to be lauded, not horrified over.
Let's recap everything. Genji though Yasu was unsafe at the Ushiromiya house so he hid her in an orphanage. Doing so he realized he took from her her family and thought this wasn't good too.

He seems to believe that the parade fixed everything as it gave back to Yasu her birthrights and her family. Even if Kinzo apologized to Beato he implied now he knew the difference between Beato and Yasu so the dressing up (which might also be merely an embellishment so we don't really know if it happened) might have been merely to underline the resemblance between Beato and Yasu.

In Japanese stories where a kid goes lost and then it's found she's often dressed like the mother (or has to do something the mother did) so that she can be compared to her and recognized.


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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
I guess you missed all the scenes in EP7 where Yasu specifically points out that no one is to blame for her situation, even Battler. Her method of coping is actually trying to think about others and how she can't "blame" them for her own pain, until it finally gets to be too much for her and she snaps. Even if the people around her "love" Yasu. Even if all the pain they put her through is unthinking and accidental... That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
I think it's more correct to say that a side of Yasu knew it wasn't Battler's fault while another found more easier to blame him.
We've too many bits in which it's said it's all Battler's fault to think Yasu completely forgave him.
Blaming Battler is also a convenient copying mechanism.
Thinking that if Battler had done something different her life could have been better gives her hope somewhere a better universe exist for her.

Bern 'set her straight' though telling her that in all the universes in which she was Yasu tragedy strike and the same would happen even in the universes in which she was Lion and she wasn't burdened by Battler's promise.

To be honest I think Bern sort of cheated as she basically implied that, in order to end up in the cat box, all the other universes had to end into tragedy so there's no way for a happy ending but, at the same time she did something interesting. She asked Lion to think at how the others were feelings.

She does all of it in a rather cruel way yet she forces Lion to face something Lion refused to look at.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Yasu is making a storm about silly things. Maria was trying to go on with her life. Yasu had hope about someone else coming and solving her problems. Maria had hope about being strong and live her life happily, regardless of not being able to change her mother's violence.
A nine year old tried with all her might to live, and find love for her acknowledging herself if no one was going to love her.
A nineteen year old tried to find someone who would take her away and love her. She dreamed about being acknowledged... when people like George and Jessica acknowledged her already.

I can't help but respect and later feel pity about Maria's start in the black world of witches. I can't help but facepalm when talking about Yasu's overreactions.
I agree. In Tsubasa there's a really interesting part in which Maria decides she'll try to make breakfast for her mother so that the day will start well and their relation will grow stronger. In short she takes an active stance instead than just waiting for Rosa to magically understand it.

Even when she 'uses magic' Maria tries to do it in a way that is active. She thinks that sound she makes should make things better between her and her mother because once it worked. Probably she kept trying to make it because Rosa gives mixed responses (when Rosa feels guilty because she had just hit Maria she doesn't complain anymore if she does it and gets nicer with Maria) so Maria might even think that the times Rosa complain is because she's not saying it properly.

Still, she's doing more than just waiting.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
And allow me to say that calling 'Battler a moron for forgiving Yasu' is more fucked up than everything. I'm not trying to pass Yasu off as a saint, because I am perfectly aware of all the sins (I also don't think she really committed, but let's stick to PieceYasu for argument's sake) she committed.
Well, more than Battler being a moron for forgiving her is: all of sudden the game present Yasu/Beato as someone who's not at fault for what she did. Actually it's Battler who caused all of this so he's the one to blame and that has to apologize.

Of course the game might have been trying to draw a line between PieceBeato and MetaBeato.
After all it's MetaBattler who forgives MetaBeato. MetaBeato isn't killing real people as the pieces aren't real in her world so effectively it can be the only thing she's doing wrong is not explaining this clearly to Battler who seems to think each time a piece die it's a person that's killed.

However the whole message is so blurry that this interpretation isn't immediate or the only one possible.

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But Maria did change her mother's violence. She changed it whenever she blamed it on the bad witch, or whenever she excused her mother for neglecting her. Maria isn't really going on with her life. She 'tweaks' the sad reality into a happy one, which is kinda the opposite. Having said that, I still don't find her pitiful or stupid for that.
Undoubtely there are things that Maria is doing wrong. It's also clearly implied Maria is a girl with issues that's living a situation of abuse and neglectment that's bigger than her. her copying mechanisms aren't really perfect but I like to think that more than tweaking reality she's trying to have an optimist or Pollyanna-like approach to life most of the time.
Mama got angry and said mean things? Surely she didn't meant that it was just stress. And it can be it was just stress.
Rosa was a bad mother but this didn't necessary mean she hated Maria, just that she failed at being a mother because she chosed using a behaviour that had been used by her relatives on her.

In many cases the truth is in between. Rosa is stressed and exhasperated and doing the wrong thing. It doesn't mean there's no love at all, just that there isn't enough to help Rosa doing the right one all the time.
Rosa is, after all, weak and unstable.
Maria couldn't understand all that, she could only see that some days her mom would love her deraly and some others... she wouldn't and would try to interpret this 2 contrasting truths her own way.

Yet she always try to get along. And I think that's worth something.[/quote]

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Except what they acknowledge is nothing more than a facade Yasu puts up in order to hide her real self because she herself cannot find acceptance for it. Yasu isn't sure if they would do the same with her real self, and that's her real issue here. The fact that she is incapable of accepting herself is what renders her unable to be accepted by anyone else.
Rather true but again the blame switch on Yasu here. She dreams of being aknowledged for herself but hides herself so that the ones who'd like to get close to her... well, can't. Figuring out her true nature also means to understand she's lying and lacking in trust toward her.
In the end George is very open to her confessing her his worst sides but she can't find herself willing to do the same.
Jessica and Battler too always seem to be rather straightforward and honest and Battler seems to have quite a bunch of troubles in doubting others. So in a fashion Yasu has around himself people who're willing to trust her but whom she's unable to trust in.

Yes, she has issues so it's understable she has troubles but the point is she's the one trapping herself in this vicious circle.
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Old 2012-09-18, 19:26   Link #30671
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(if she had a uterus and it was removed/damaged, well at best you'll notice a scar that you won't necessarily connect to a missing/damaged uterus)
Can I ask how exactly she could damage uterus? Because I don't really get it...
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Old 2012-09-18, 20:13   Link #30672
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Can I ask how exactly she could damage uterus? Because I don't really get it...

She was a baby who fell from a cliff. Part of her body could have been crushed or either even stabbed by something sharp over which it fell damaging her internal organs.
In a list of traumas you can have due to incident are included the crushing of a uteus which will also cause internal bloodloss of the organ so it's possible that was the damage Yasu received.

Genji said he didn't think she would survive when he rushed her to Nanjo so I think whatever she suffered was serious and Yasu was very lucky to survive to it.


Anyway Ryukishi believed it shouldn't have been possible to determinate which sex Yasu was just by reading what happened to him/her so it has to be possible for Yasu to be hurt in a way that would make his/her body unable to be loved regardless from his/her gender.

If this wasn't true, just by knowing Yasu was hurt in such way we would know which gender Yasu is/was and this would destroy the catbox about Yasu's sex.

As Ryukishi wanted to preserve the catbox just saying Yasu received an injury that turned his/her body unable to be loved shouldn't help us to guess which sex Yasu is.
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Old 2012-09-19, 01:22   Link #30673
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Some guy you don't know goes and blows you home with all your family and familiars inside. The incident causes you to lose it, amnesia, attacks, despair and ending in a wheelchair. Yoir little sister grows as damaged as they get and then returns to the gameboard. And then she's also killed.

You have to be Jesus, capitain. You have to be Jesus to forgive that.

...

She goes so sad she vaporizes into gold dust. I could FORGIVE her. I could nor MARRY HER!
I have the feeling you're confusing the meta-layer/Rokkenjima Prime with the gameboards here. It looks as if you're talking partially about Tohya. If meta-Battler in the games is representing the part of Tohya that's Battler, then to him, if he realises that Beatrice is the culprit on the gameboard but might not be the culprit in Rokkenjima Prime, then maybe he has reason to forgive her. If Beatrice is painting herself as the culprit in the stories to cover for someone, then he could feel bad about thinking it was her. (Particularly if Battler is the real culprit or an accomplice! )

The impression I got isn't that Battler forgave Beatrice, but that he realised that she wasn't to blame in the first place and that he even wanted her forgiveness. Now, if what he realised was "If only I hadn't forgotten my promise, Beatrice wouldn't have killed my family! It's all my fault!" then OK, things are messed up there. But it doesn't make sense for him to think that, in my opinion. Jesus or not, it isn't a logical train of thought for him to follow. Meta-Battler didn't get presented as a person who would simply forgive mass murder in real life. But he did grow into someone who wasn't always horrified by "fictional" murder on the gameboards - like in the love duel, where he was hardly yelling at Jessica/George/Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice for the murders they committed during that.
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Old 2012-09-19, 02:16   Link #30674
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. But he did grow into someone who wasn't always horrified by "fictional" murder on the gameboards - like in the love duel, where he was hardly yelling at Jessica/George/Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice for the murders they committed during that.
I found that sequence really interesting because even Jessica and George ended up approaching it as fiction. It's the first time that the story openly raises the idea of taking mundane conflicts and highlighting them on a gameboard by amplifying them to the level of "motives for murder".

We don't point at those scenes and claim that Meta or Piece Jessica is a horrible, irredeemable monster because she'd boil Kyrie in lava for the sake of her crush in that situation. It's understood that the "motive" was a caricature for the reader's benefit and that we shouldn't approach Piece Jessica as having the same level of realism as a real-world murderer. Although the murder in question took place in a fantasy scene, Battler went to the trouble of putting that element in a game about Beatrice's origins, and even included a fantasy-meta level to talk about it in, so I think it would do a lot of good to consider why he did that.
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Old 2012-09-19, 02:48   Link #30675
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Yes, such a pity the Hippocratic Oath requires medical practitioners to avoid telling a person the truth about their body and family situation for nearly two decades. Oh, wait...

How dare she make those people feel bad for lying to her for her entire life!
Wow! She really is in a position to blame others for lying! Like she never tricked anyone in her whole life! Right, she was the image of honesty really.

At least Nanjo and Genji had good reasons. Maybe they were misguided, but they didn't do that just to have fun.
You might as well blame adoptive parents for not telling their children the truth right away.

And anyway is that what Yasu's drama is about? She's been "lied" to?


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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
The reason for Yasu's mindset that allowed her to write elaborate murder mysteries and flip the trigger on a bomb that eventually blew up the island has nothing to do with her...motivation for writing elaborate murder mysteries and flipping the switch to the bomb that would eventually blow up the island? If you say so.
Except I didn't say so.
If anything of what you mentioned was the cause for Yasu to blow up the island, she would have done it whether Battler returned or not, simply for the fact that George asked Shannon to marry him.

But the truth is that if Yasu had born female and never suffered any injuries, nothing would have changed at all. Battler would have still forgot about his promise, George would have still proposed to Shannon, and Yasu would have still snapped when Battler decided to come back 6 years later.
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Old 2012-09-19, 07:14   Link #30676
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But the truth is that if Yasu had born female and never suffered any injuries, nothing would have changed at all. Battler would have still forgot about his promise, George would have still proposed to Shannon, and Yasu would have still snapped when Battler decided to come back 6 years later.
If it would be this way in last two years Yasu wouldn't have felt like an inhuman garbage who deserves no future, whose only way to be free of such body is to die, which wouldn't led her to depression and constant fights within herself, joining the ones she already had, completing a list of her conflicting desires, which are one of the main reasons why the truth of umineko is left without confirmation. The catbox itself may have been her true intention as it fulfills all of her wishes that are impossible in the real world.
The ShKanon/furniture complex is a part of what Yasu wanted Battler to understand through her game. And it meant a lot to her.
Her hopeless and desperate mental condition + Battler brings us what we have. Erasing one of them will change the story.
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Old 2012-09-19, 08:50   Link #30677
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Maybe Beatrice is different and RokkenPrime Yasu is a sweetie who didn't kill a fly. But the endless witch (the one she's treating in the Meta level - Bern's level of existence) acts like another Takano, gloating about being an all powerfull being, torturing a guy 'forever' because she had it rough...
Which makes Bern the biggest hypocrite in the world for the way she treats Ange and Erika. Meanwhile Beatrice's "torture" was just a front all along, anyway.

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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
I guess you missed all the scenes in EP7 where Yasu specifically points out that no one is to blame for her situation, even Battler. Her method of coping is actually trying to think about others and how she can't "blame" them for her own pain, until it finally gets to be too much for her and she snaps. Even if the people around her "love" Yasu. Even if all the pain they put her through is unthinking and accidental... That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
It just doesn't matter how much pain she's in, it doesn't make sense to randomly kill everyone.

In the first place, it was not the revelation of Yasu's sexual problems, or the revelation that her most trusted guardians were lying to her her whole life or anything like that that actually triggered any actual intent to murder. The trigger was Battler's return.

So how could news of Battler's return cause Yasu to plan and carry out a mass murder?

In other words, it's not a matter of her "snapping" from pain. In fact, it's more like she "snapped" from hope. So what we have is a situation where Yasu's motive for killing over a dozen people is not vengeance, nor desire for destruction caused by a sense of powerlessness, nor some other motive that places intrinsic meaning in the act of taking the lives of the victims. No, the motive is to create a chance of Battler remembering her. In other words, these murders are no more than a means to an end. The victims are less than human. They're consumable tools. They're pieces.

This is not a satisfying motive for murder. It's a fantasy motive.

Yasu simply has no "mystery" motive. That's why I think Yasu is innocent in Prime.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Rather true but again the blame switch on Yasu here. She dreams of being aknowledged for herself but hides herself so that the ones who'd like to get close to her... well, can't. Figuring out her true nature also means to understand she's lying and lacking in trust toward her.
In the end George is very open to her confessing her his worst sides but she can't find herself willing to do the same.
Jessica and Battler too always seem to be rather straightforward and honest and Battler seems to have quite a bunch of troubles in doubting others. So in a fashion Yasu has around himself people who're willing to trust her but whom she's unable to trust in.

Yes, she has issues so it's understable she has troubles but the point is she's the one trapping herself in this vicious circle.
From Dlanor's Forward in Our Confessions (previously translated by LyricalTwilight):

Without love, it can't be seen.

They are her words.
But I shall repeat them.

Love exists in everyone's hearts.

Her true tragedy was that she couldn't see it.
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Old 2012-09-19, 09:08   Link #30678
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
We don't point at those scenes and claim that Meta or Piece Jessica is a horrible, irredeemable monster because she'd boil Kyrie in lava for the sake of her crush in that situation. It's understood that the "motive" was a caricature for the reader's benefit and that we shouldn't approach Piece Jessica as having the same level of realism as a real-world murderer. Although the murder in question took place in a fantasy scene, Battler went to the trouble of putting that element in a game about Beatrice's origins, and even included a fantasy-meta level to talk about it in, so I think it would do a lot of good to consider why he did that.
Jessica also expressed heavy reservations about ever doing such a thing multiple times in Dawn, and had to basically become possessed to even do it. That confuses the matter somewhat because Jessica and George sort of had different attitudes toward it. Although I doubt anyone really thought by that point that Jessica's character was one which would give her a motive of that sort, so I think most people agreed with your perception of why that scene was the way it was.

Although really that whole scene mostly just existed so Kyrie could plot dump.
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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
If it would be this way in last two years Yasu wouldn't have felt like an inhuman garbage who deserves no future, whose only way to be free of such body is to die, which wouldn't led her to depression and constant fights within herself, joining the ones she already had, completing a list of her conflicting desires, which are one of the main reasons why the truth of umineko is left without confirmation. The catbox itself may have been her true intention as it fulfills all of her wishes that are impossible in the real world.
The ShKanon/furniture complex is a part of what Yasu wanted Battler to understand through her game. And it meant a lot to her.
Her hopeless and desperate mental condition + Battler brings us what we have. Erasing one of them will change the story.
You're missing his point. Her body image could just as easily be a mistake on her own part, based on misunderstandings or assumptions from things she has heard about. It's a bit like the whole "did Natsuhi do it on purpose or not?" question with respect to the baby story; even Natsuhi herself isn't totally sure, and she alternates between firm denial she did anything and guilt-riddled assumption that she must have. Natsuhi is the only person who could know, and she acted as if she wasn't really sure; consequently, whether you choose to believe she's right or wrong, you must make an assumption that you can't confirm.

The same is true for anything Yasu hears from Genji and Nanjo or from Kinzo or from anybody really. She doesn't know there was a baby. She doesn't know she was that baby. She doesn't know the baby was injured in some way and that her body image is the result of an actual injury. Feeling abnormal or uncomfortable with one's own body is not that uncommon in perfectly healthy people. Yasu had these feelings and made assumptions based on information.

The point is, she chose to believe this was true and behaved accordingly. Jan-Poo's point (I think) is that it doesn't make any difference whether she's right or wrong about it.

For example, let's say the baby really did exist, really did suffer a fall and an injury, really was operated on by Nanjo, and really was placed in the orphanage by Genji. And at some point Genji accidentally made a mistake and lost track of the baby, thinking entirely by error that some other baby was the one. That baby came to be raised as Yasu-Alternate, let's say, on the mistaken assumption it was Kinzo's secret child.

Yasu-Alternate grows up in the same situations and perhaps has the same feelings. Yasu-Alternate is also uncomfortable with him/herself for reasons he/she isn't sure of. Yasu-Alternate also has a relationship with Battler which is interrupted by Battler's departure. And Yasu-Alternate eventually finds out from Genji/Nanjo what happened to the baby. He/she believes them, because they're telling the truth about the incident, but all three just happen to be mistaken and think Yasu-Alternate was that baby.

Would Yasu-Alternate behave the same way as Yasu? I don't see why not. He/she believes the circumstances to be as presented, even though everyone involved in the situation is mistaken. By the same token, Yasu can't know she's the secret baby or that there even was a secret baby. She has to trust Genji, and apparently she is inclined to do so. In doing so, she believes it and acts as if it is true.

Because she acts as if it is true, it doesn't matter if it is or isn't actually true, because Yasu has no apparent way of knowing other than the ways she's got in front of her. So whether the situation is Baby Exists -> Yasu is Baby -> Body Image Caused by Injury or Baby Doesn't Exist -> Yasu isn't Baby -> Body Image Caused by Something Else, Yasu will behave identically by drawing a conclusion that fits the information she has.

Thus in Jan-Poo's theoretical account of a perfectly normal female Yasu who just mistakenly believes she's a mutilated male, silly as such a thing might obviously sound, her reaction ought to be no different. In other words, unless the scenario changes so drastically as to be entirely unrecognizable, the events of 1986 would play out basically the same whether or not the stories were true.
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
No, the motive is to create a chance of Battler remembering her. In other words, these murders are no more than a means to an end. The victims are less than human. They're consumable tools. They're pieces.

This is not a satisfying motive for murder. It's a fantasy motive.

Yasu simply has no "mystery" motive. That's why I think Yasu is innocent in Prime.
However, this motive makes perfect sense in the case of, say, a murder mystery game. Battler would probably realize at some point that the motive makes no sense and, from that, hopefully guess that nobody is really dead. Because there's no motive to actually harm them.

Still a potentially dickish thing to do to Battler, but at least it would be done with the willing participation of everyone for an essentially innocent purpose. That would be a sufficient "mystery" motive, although obviously it would also assert her innocence.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
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Old 2012-09-19, 10:24   Link #30679
Jan-Poo
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@Renall

My point is close to what you're saying, but more or less you nailed the fact that "being a mutilated male" has so little to do with a real problem for herself that even if she was a normal female she would have still come up with some kind of drama to feel pitiful about.

Now if she was a mutilated male that never felt like a woman, that wanted to be male and that suffered form his forced feminization then hell yeah, I would understand and recognize her tragic situation.

But as much as we have doubts about Yasu's sex there isn't really any about her gender identity. Yasu doesn't suffer from being a woman at all, if anything her ideal selfs are always female.

The point is that people like her usually end up deciding to remove their testicles by their own decision, and often they hate the fact that they have a penis.

In the end the real problem with Yasu (assuming she was a mutilated man) is not that she doesn't have a penis, but the fact that she wasn't born a woman.
Her idea that "it's all because of that incident if I'm not fit to love" only shows how much she subconsciously needs to play the part of the tragic heroine at all costs.

If she still had a penis, she'd still have a problem romancing George and Battler, and she probably would still dramatize over the fact that she doesn't have a vagina. Which at least it's something that I would understand, at least there would be a sequitur.
But there's still the fact that the whole idea that she isn't fit to be loved is something that she decided by herself. Nobody told her that, of course the chance that she would be refused was high, but she didn't even try. She didn't even left the involved persons to decide whether they still wanted to love her or not.
And that's why she's a drama queen. You can understand that a person is one, when they decide their tragedies are unsolvable before even trying. Which is basically what she did with the whole Battler situation.

BTW. There is no evidence that Yasu is actually a biological male. For all that we know she could as well be female. In that case she would be simply a woman unable to reproduce. In this case at least there would be a real connection with her incident, because supposedly that would be precisely the reason that made her unable to bear children.
However that would still be an overreaction. The world is plenty of women in the same condition. It's sad, but it's not such a tragedy. And that's certainly not a reason to think you can't possibly be loved.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
However, this motive makes perfect sense in the case of, say, a murder mystery game. Battler would probably realize at some point that the motive makes no sense and, from that, hopefully guess that nobody is really dead. Because there's no motive to actually harm them.

Still a potentially dickish thing to do to Battler, but at least it would be done with the willing participation of everyone for an essentially innocent purpose. That would be a sufficient "mystery" motive, although obviously it would also assert her innocence.
Well there is a chance that in Prime that's exactly what Yasu wanted to do, and that the stories she wrote were just possible fictional plots she had in mind. In that case Yasu in Prime wouldn't be guilty of anything major.

But the character in her stories would still be a psychopath.
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Old 2012-09-19, 10:37   Link #30680
UsagiTenpura
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Well I did suggest a drastically different interpretation of Yasu's body that cannot be loved.
She has lethal health problems that are going to kill her soon anyway. Basically she's in the same situation as Kinzo.

No need for gender confusion or being unable to reproduce.

I'm sure some would say that she can still be loved even if dying and all of that, but that's a bit too idealistic. Not going to bother debating that much if anyone disagrees. I'm only going to say, go look at a retirement house and witness how much love these people are receiving.

As for what problems she has I'm not certain but it looks like it's heart related problems. Teen with heart problems aren't going to live very long. Especially if they had surgeries already (I know there's exceptions and that nowaday medecine is getting much better but in 1970-80 an heart surgery wasn't something you'd easily recover from).
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