AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-01-05, 06:31   Link #221
wingdarkness
Retweet Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ニュー・オーリンズ、LA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
How was Shinn EVER the best pilot in CE? Recall in ep 8 when Athrun/Yzak trashed chaos he said "O_o so this is the power of the Jachin Due pilots!" so there he already admitted that he wasn't as good. Shinn never fought Athrun gundam v. gundam until the end, in which Athrun SOUNDLY won both times. Shinn beat Kira because Kira was doing everything BUT fighting him. He was sniping grunts, IMing the archangel, trying to high-tail it outta there, hyperventilating, etc... and even later, Kira says it was just a fluke. And then Kira SHOWED that it was a fluke when he hands down pwnt Shinn in ep 42. Shinn won ONE gundam v. gundam fight against Kira/Athrun COMBINED. Let's count Shinn's encounters vs. Kira/Athrun in gundams

1) Ep 24, Kira v. Shinn: Kira/Athrun: 1-0-0, Shinn 0-1-0
2) Ep 28, Kira v. Shinn: Kira/Athrun: 1-0-1, Shinn 0-1-1
3) Ep 32, Kira v. Shinn (for that brief moment), Kira/Athrun: 1-0-2, Shinn: 0-1-2
4) Ep 34, Kira v. Shinn (Ugh) Kira/Athrun: 1-1-2, Shinn: 1-1-2
5) Ep 42, Kira v. Shinn (more consistency this time): Kira/Athrun: 2-1-2, Shinn: 1-2-2
6) Ep 43, Athrun v. Shinn, Kira/Athrun: 3-1-2, Shinn: 1-3-2
7) Kira v. Shinn ep 50 (brief skirmish, Shinn gets trapped by dragoons then railgunned like a bitch): Kira/Athrun: 4-1-2, Shinn 1-4-2
8) Athrun v. Shinn ep 50: Kira/Athrun: 5-1-2, Shinn 1-5-2

Wins are counted as 3 points, losses as 0, ties as 1. Shinn final score: 5 points. Kira/Athrun combined score: 17 points. Even if you'd take one third of that, Shinn is still outscored. Best pilot in CE my ass. He won ONE gundam v. gundam fight against them. If you can call Shinn better compared to all of the times he's lost (5), well...

About Neo/Mwu: there was an explanation. He had his memories bottled up, and he regained them.

About Durandall: I'll give you credit there. He had me on the fence up to ep 36 (I could understand ep 34's orders...but then once he started saying "Can I rely on you to deal with Athrun," started BSing Shinn, and said "now you disappear for sure, Lacusu Clyne", I said screw him. Very abrupt too.

And once again about Shinn: you're saying he was plot deviced all those times, but won fair and square the one time he beat Kira. I say Kira got haxed once, then won on him being the better pilot. Tell me, what would have happened with Shinn in ep 28 had Athrun not cut Kira off? Bulky blast Impulse vs. supermaneuverable Freedom? Please remember that Mwu in Launcher Strike got beat by Rau in a CGUE melee style. Ep 32 Kira wasn't after Shinn's blood anyway, but I counted that for Shinn's benefit anyway.

So tell me, does it make more sense to say that there was one plot device used (oh, and a mighty plot device it was INDEED! Kira DID have to get Strike Freedom SOMEHOW, correct?) as opposed to Shinn losing and staying with Impluse/Destiny...

You see, Shinn's losses weren't because he had to upgrade to a new gundam. If there was no SF coming, do you honestly think Fukuda would have trashed the Freedom? Odds are, he would have Shinn get Destiny, go rushing madly at Kira, just for Kira to pwn him again anyway (is there REALLY that much of a difference between Freedom and SF aside from dragoons/beamshields?)

And let's not forget that Shinn was getting absolutely owned in space. Okay, I'm going to rewatch final plus just so I can find the moment for you when Shinn is getting owned by dragoons.

Edit: Crap, final plus is on my laptop...don't have it on me right now...someone do me a favor and find me the time that Shinn turns on WoL, rushes at Kira, starts dodging dragoons, then catches railgun to the face before Rey steps in and tries to divert Kira?
Hahaha....seems the oodles and kaboodles of love you had for the new Shinn, the more kawaii and loving Shinn is finally wearing off...after your 2 weeks of religious vigils praising and loving Shinn, reflecting on him as such a misunderstood character (only took you a milllion brain glompings to realize this)...

When he felt the warm hand clasp of your hero and bowed before him you totally changed your tune...But now even after dom33 says something with no real hardcore context behind it (about Shinn)...You once again go off the deep end...It's just funny to see how bi-polar you are right now...Go re-watch the final 2 mins of "Final Plus" again, you'll feel better...Remember to never flip-flop on Shinn again...I told you, your not deserving of reexamining anything about his character...This post proves it...So just stick to your bias nerfing (and nerf defending), which i can respect...
__________________
Fly since ...
wingdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 06:51   Link #222
dom33
Pat:TAISAAAAA!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
@wd it's intresting how demongod86 proves to be blinder than a blind man.
@demongod86 you realize you go against what you've saidin the past ALOT,
if you can make excuses i can you see kira destroyed the bomerangs via reused scenes(true)and if you open your eyes and stop being blinder than a blind ,man you'll see every hit kira got in was sock fooage,i have to go to school now.
dom33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 07:01   Link #223
BrokenWingz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 25
Keep in mind that it is trageted for sales and to teens who go Wow! Kira/anyone owned in that battle and not too much on a i dont like the series thing =\
(not directed to anyone in particular)
__________________
BrokenWingz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 08:02   Link #224
srb
I can see time itself!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kingdom of Sweden
Age: 28
Send a message via MSN to srb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Shinn was dodging the dragoons, then got railgunned like a bitch. No, I don't hate the guy, but he was dodging left and right then just got smashed (note: AAAHHHH face) by the railguns.
Oh, he got smashed alright - on the beam shield.

He took zero hits on Destiny itself.

Quote:
Kira was in fight mood, Shinn was in fight mood. Shinn attacks, Shinn gets ass handed to him and has to retreat due to being without much of a melee option (and that ridiculous plot device of that hyper capacitor, just to nail it into some viewers' heads that the reasons he was under already were not enough).
Now this is just ridiculous. SEED Kira pulling a super stunt against non-SEED Shinn = ownage? But what about when Shinn seeded as well? Destiny was flying in a large circle around SF, with Kira blocking shots but missing all his. It's obvious that when SEEDed they were matched in skill, and Destiny was able to go around due to its speed and SF was able to maneuver to block the shots thanks to its excellent maneuverability. Neither is much superior to the other, both pilot-wise and MS wise.

Last edited by srb; 2006-01-05 at 09:00.
srb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 08:57   Link #225
Last_Hope
System/Web developer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I think you all need to take a break from Gundam and watch Shuffle instead.
__________________

Want to know who did this kickass sig? Just click it!
Last_Hope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 10:57   Link #226
Eidolon Sniper
Tsubasa No Kami
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD
Send a message via Yahoo to Eidolon Sniper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
It may have been badly presented, but it's pretty much canon he's behind that stuff. That's the situation I'm dealing with.
The fact that they only made Dullindal damn evil in the last 15 episodes somehow disproves that his evilness as canon... I mean come on? A grand masterplan of the entire universe out of thin air?!

Quote:
Smileys've never struck me as a good substitute for actual words in the presentation of ideas.
Well, I don't know. Her perfection just overwhelms me a bit too much, if I should
say...

Quote:
Just a reminder: Lacus is just a character, same as Dully. The writers decided Dully would be the villain. (And, judging by his character design, decided so early on.)
If there was an original plan for SEED, then it's safe to assume that there WAS also an original plan for Destiny.

Quote:
I don't separate the ends from the means. Genocide may not have been the goal of Destiny Plan, but it was certainly part of it. And I refuse to ignore it on the basis of Dully's "good intentions".
As was mentioned, he was handled very badly. Even if the rest of the series point otherwise (him not actually evil and all, just a misguided dreamer) and you STILL believe that he's "evil"...then there's nothing short of miraculous intervention I could do about it.

Quote:
How was Shinn EVER the best pilot in CE? Recall in ep 8 when Athrun/Yzak trashed chaos he said "O_o so this is the power of the Jachin Due pilots!" so there he already admitted that he wasn't as good. Shinn never fought Athrun gundam v. gundam until the end, in which Athrun SOUNDLY won both times. Shinn beat Kira because Kira was doing everything BUT fighting him. He was sniping grunts, IMing the archangel, trying to high-tail it outta there, hyperventilating, etc... and even later, Kira says it was just a fluke. And then Kira SHOWED that it was a fluke when he hands down pwnt Shinn in ep 42.
It was never about being the best. And as Owaranai said, the one with the plot device wins, hands down, no questions asked.

No, no, no. This is why I hated Fukuda for doing that Impulse Freedom stunt, so nobody would blame Kira on his loss because he was conveniently "distracted"... I respected Kira back in SEED (befire getting the Freedom, mind you), now Kira in GSD... Since when did the old Kira moped about losing a Gundam?! I want SEED Kira + Fllay back~~~!!!

SEED Shinn > SEED Kira except during the time when Kira has his plot device shield about him. So it makes it SEED Kira > SEED Shinn. Remember how SEED Kira was when SEED Shinn pulled that stunt on him during that Orb fight episode. Oh, the sweetness! I mean he was expecting the Impulse pilot to be some random grunt pilot that wouldn't certainly miss his wonderful beam saber-ing ability...-_______-;; talk about not giving pilots their due even if he's just a regular "grunt"...

Quote:
Shinn won ONE gundam v. gundam fight against Kira/Athrun COMBINED. Let's count Shinn's encounters vs. Kira/Athrun in gundams

1) Ep 24, Kira v. Shinn: Kira/Athrun: 1-0-0, Shinn 0-1-0
2) Ep 28, Kira v. Shinn: Kira/Athrun: 1-0-1, Shinn 0-1-1
3) Ep 32, Kira v. Shinn (for that brief moment), Kira/Athrun: 1-0-2, Shinn: 0-1-2
4) Ep 34, Kira v. Shinn (Ugh) Kira/Athrun: 1-1-2, Shinn: 1-1-2
5) Ep 42, Kira v. Shinn (more consistency this time): Kira/Athrun: 2-1-2, Shinn: 1-2-2
6) Ep 43, Athrun v. Shinn, Kira/Athrun: 3-1-2, Shinn: 1-3-2
7) Kira v. Shinn ep 50 (brief skirmish, Shinn gets trapped by dragoons then railgunned like a bitch): Kira/Athrun: 4-1-2, Shinn 1-4-2
8) Athrun v. Shinn ep 50: Kira/Athrun: 5-1-2, Shinn 1-5-2
Since when did this become Kira/Athrun VS Shinn? Even in the context of things, Shinn would definitely lose, because you have those 2 demigods ganging up on him...

Ep 24 The element of surprise. Plus Minerva and the EA fleet were all WTF by the Archangel and Freedom and Strike Rouge. See if you'd like it too when some random ship barges straight into your own battle and starts shooting men down like there's no tomorrow. Thanks for dropping by for dinner.

Ep 28 Athrun was Savioured...and the Blast Impulse stunt...Kira's at SEED Shinn totally priceless~~~!!!

Ep 32 Shinn wins because he was the one who got through Destroy's defenses while Freedom could only do his rainbow beam attack in a never ending cycle and he STILL can't hit Destroy...the beam saber in Destroy's face is solely plot device because Stellar was starting to go crazy again and Kira took that momentary pause to do Destroy...

Ep 34 The best fight in the series (Shinn defeating Kira) and the worst fight in the series (Shinn defeating Kira). Tactics over plot device. That was just the sweetest thing that happened in GSD...for Shinn fans like myself anyway. But his win isn't exactly a win, and it's all thanks to Fukuda...

Ep 42 - 43 Strike Freedom = GOD suit VS Destiny = GAWD suit...remember that since this is the debut of Kira's GOD suit, he must outshine the Destiny no matter what happens. Oh, and Shinn has almost reached the zilch point of his character development and he's already been shafted as the secondary "main character". Athrun in spite of his injuries still managed to have a decent battle... no, even Athrun has plot shield?!

Ep 50 This isn't even worth talking about. Destiny and Legend gets mysteriously thrashed after getting pwned by the uber GOD suits Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice. And they're even joined by the horrible walking plot device of all plot devices, the Akatsuki. Poor day for ZAFT, losing Destiny, Legend...and Shinn's characterization going down the drain, made even worse by Final Plus.

Never got to ask this or even confirm it, could Destiny be also recharged via Deuterion beam from the Minerva? I mean, Destiny supposedly all has its Silhouettes stuck with it + Wings of Light...if so, Shinn miraculously forgot all about this option and if he abused it again, he'll have Strike Freedom crying for mercy...(rant of a very wronged Shinn fan) so there...
__________________

Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!

Last edited by Eidolon Sniper; 2006-01-05 at 11:11.
Eidolon Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 11:02   Link #227
srb
I can see time itself!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kingdom of Sweden
Age: 28
Send a message via MSN to srb
Quote:
Never got to ask this or even confirm it, could Destiny be also recharged via Deuterion beam from the Minerva?
Forgotten technical aspect that was ignored later on.
srb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 12:48   Link #228
tetsuo69
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: nyc
Quote:
Ep 28 Athrun was Savioured...and the Blast Impulse stunt...Kira's at SEED Shinn totally priceless~~~!!!
yeah a non seed kira..i dont see anything big here as neither of them were able to land a hit

Quote:
Ep 32 Shinn wins because he was the one who got through Destroy's defenses while Freedom could only do his rainbow beam attack in a never ending cycle and he STILL can't hit Destroy...the beam saber in Destroy's face is solely plot device because Stellar was starting to go crazy again and Kira took that momentary pause to do Destroy...
i dont even want to go into ep 32.. it was the start of shinn plot device against any Destroy after this the shield wouldnt go up on shinn but on kira it would

Quote:
Ep 34 The best fight in the series (Shinn defeating Kira) and the worst fight in the series (Shinn defeating Kira). Tactics over plot device. That was just the sweetest thing that happened in GSD...for Shinn fans like myself anyway. But his win isn't exactly a win, and it's all thanks to Fukuda...
is that so would you care to tell me what kind of plot divice shinn pull right b4 Freedom lost one of its wing? that sure was tactics..right? and lets not forget kira becoming a noob right after taking impulse head and arm easily

Quote:
Ep 42 - 43 Strike Freedom = GOD suit VS Destiny = GAWD suit...remember that since this is the debut of Kira's GOD suit, he must outshine the Destiny no matter what happens. Oh, and Shinn has almost reached the zilch point of his character development and he's already been shafted as the secondary "main character". Athrun in spite of his injuries still managed to have a decent battle... no, even Athrun has plot shield?!
what can i say about Ep 42-43... just that kira got his skills back and asuran the same.. after making him look like an idiot for 43 Eps in the eyes of shinn..


Quote:
Ep 50 This isn't even worth talking about. Destiny and Legend gets mysteriously thrashed after getting pwned by the uber GOD suits Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice.
they got the treatment the destroy were getting from them Rofl

edit...
ep 34 the Ep with out plot device the only worth watching Rofl


here an extra bonus!!! of ep 34 Rofl



it had to happen so he would get his hands on the new Freedom for marketing models
__________________

Last edited by tetsuo69; 2006-01-05 at 13:16.
tetsuo69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 13:09   Link #229
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
The fact that they only made Dullindal damn evil in the last 15 episodes somehow disproves that his evilness as canon... I mean come on? A grand masterplan of the entire universe out of thin air?!
As I said later - he was evil since the start. They just didn't make it blatant till late in the show. (If you consider his look and the Mia thing to not be blatant.)

Quote:
As was mentioned, he was handled very badly. Even if the rest of the series point otherwise (him not actually evil and all, just a misguided dreamer) and you STILL believe that he's "evil"...then there's nothing short of miraculous intervention I could do about it.
Possibly we're working with rather different definition of evil.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 14:06   Link #230
Last_Hope
System/Web developer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsuo69
edit...
ep 34 the Ep with out plot device the only worth watching Rofl


here an extra bonus!!! of ep 34 Rofl



it had to happen so he would get his hands on the new Freedom for marketing models
(I´m really bad with names when it comes to weaponry in the Gundam world)

It´s a shame they had to destroy Freedom completely. I would much rather just have seen them upgrade Freedom, giving it that abdomen cannon, the shields and the dual rifles and newer versions of the weapons at the hips and shoulders on Freedom instead. Leaving out the DRAGOONs and Newtype reactions... But the gold joints were pretty kick ass though so these should definitely be included in an upgraded Freedom.
__________________

Want to know who did this kickass sig? Just click it!

Last edited by Last_Hope; 2006-01-05 at 14:45.
Last_Hope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 14:55   Link #231
dom33
Pat:TAISAAAAA!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsuo69
edit...
ep 34 the Ep with out plot device the only worth watching Rofl


here an extra bonus!!! of ep 34 Rofl



it had to happen so he would get his hands on the new Freedom for marketing models
well this proves kira fans are way more pathetic than shinn fans.
@sniper-sensei you forgot re-used scenes.
and demongod86 neo(i refuse to call him mwu,besides mwu died last season) didn't start geting the memories back till after the battle of orb not after the battle of berlin.
dom33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 16:11   Link #232
_X12A_Testament
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dom33
well this proves kira fans are way more pathetic than shinn fans.
@sniper-sensei you forgot re-used scenes.
and demongod86 neo(i refuse to call him mwu,besides mwu died last season) didn't start geting the memories back till after the battle of orb not after the battle of berlin.

You are proving that Shinn fans are delusional

Tetsuo makes things obvious with the screencaps.

As a fan of both Kira and Shinn, as well as Athrun, I am not deluded into thinking that Shinn > Kira. He is still a VERY GOOD ace, but GSD was just so retarded with consistency that Shinn's "domination" just didn't make sense when you look at all the facts, just like Tetsuo points out. It was really forced and frankly boring to watch Shinn get turned into this cliche. At least we saw Kira progress into his power in seed1. Shinn suffered greatly from behind the scenes motives that turned him into a one-dimensional and unbelievable character, and I think it was unfortunate because if it was done RIGHT, Shinn probably would have been more popular than Athrun. It came off way to forced and that is reflected in his popularity in Japan. Those fans are no fools and didn't buy into the over-hype.... unlike others
_X12A_Testament is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 16:13   Link #233
Last_Hope
System/Web developer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Wow, dom33 you should feel honoured. You´re the first and only that will be going into my ignore list. Don´t you know how to write anything else than personal attacks? That´s all you ever write, together with explanations of how SEED Destiny (and especially the old cast) sucked in every way possible.

Also it was hinted that Mwu was starting to get his memories back after the Berlin battle when AA was attacked he said something like; "Why is it always like this here". With a suitable reaction afterwards.


As for the plot devices, I think they evened themselves out. The new cast just had the bad luck of being at the wrong side in the end. Maybe Shinn could catch som Lacus-dust when he shook Kira´s hand.
__________________

Want to know who did this kickass sig? Just click it!
Last_Hope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 16:28   Link #234
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
About Kira/Athrun vs. Shinn...I'm not talking about them ganking up on him, I am talking about simply adding up Kira's wins and losses with Athrun's in gundam v. gundam fights against Shinn.

And against Destroy, I specifically meant when Impulse attacked Freedom with Shinn shouting "YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!"

That's what I meant.

I guess it's rightful that Shinn gets PWNED by Justice after all the crap he put Athrun through, though it'd also be nice to see Legend more turned into swiss cheese simply rather than being beamspammed once.
Demongod86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 17:47   Link #235
vio5555
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
I think the biggest problem with GSD is that the fanbases have become so polarized due to the way that the series went (I'm not going into detail here because it would be redundant since this point has been driven many times), that the battles are now being read completely as "plot devices."

One of the biggest failings of a series can be when its conflicts don't achieve legitimacy with the viewers. In this case, which has rarely happened so extensively in the former Gundam universes, the battles between the main characters are being driven more by what the viewers want to see in what is actually presented. This has the downside that now most viewers have reached the reductionist position that any character who wins a skirmish, does so through a plot device.

While Fukuda has no doubt caused this by providing us with lots of inexplicable occurrences on all sides of the battles from the 2 scenes that Tetsuo depicts to the use of SF's shields to take Destiny's sword, I think the debate has pretty much gotten mired in the inconsistencies with both sides advocating more and more extreme positions.

Honestly I think the consumeristic aspect of the series went to Fukuda's head and he ended up designing some kind of mass consumption sports series meets war. Why would you argue who the best pilot is in a war in the first place? Why are we debating such a superficial point in a "war story"? This shouldn't be some kind of spectator sport where people line up on either side cheering for their team to score a victory against the other; it should be a story where we are meant to feel the tragedies that hit both sides and identify with both sides.

I feel that this is the worst aspect of the series because neither Kira nor Shinn was meant to be evil or misconstrued as so and yet people on either side of the debate are saying things like "its rightful that so-and-so got pwned." Would some of you have been cheering if the other side got killed in that last battle? How would it help the C.E. if Shinn got killed in ep 50 of GSD? Wouldn't another GSD then occur...? In the same way, I don't see how people wanted Kira killed this late in the series; if anything it would just destabilize the situation more than it already is.

Instead of forcing us into the kind of reductionist positions that led large portions of each fanbase into extreme positions, Fukuda would have been much better off trying to force each side to see things from the other sides' perspective so that we aren't left to bitterly note that in the last minutes of Final Plus. Instead, he went and capitalized on the natural Shinn vs. Kira inclinations and left most fans disappointed with the direction of the series. A much better discussion could have ensued if both fanbases had realized that Shinn and Kira could have worked together without all the polarization that occurred before reaching that point.

Honestly, are Kira's and Shinn's compassion lost on their fanbases? Do you really think it would be nice to see Freedom's cockpit hit by Impulse's sword or "Legend turned into swiss cheese," would that really make the series better? If so, then this series couldn't possibly have any value as a tragic war story, its turned into a cheap sporting event in which fanbases are cheering for one side to physically harm the other side.
vio5555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 18:13   Link #236
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
While I have respect for Shinn as a character thanks to final plus, the fact will always remain in my mind that he is not on par with Kira and Athrun, and I will analyze every battle that has had him go gundam v. gundam. Sure, Shinn is an excellent ace. But he's no Kira or Athrun. He's Shinn. He's better at taking things out that perhaps Kira or Athrun would not have as much ease doing, such as annihilating entire fleets or several destroys in the sake of a few minutes. Would Kira have been able to take down those 5 destroys even in SF? I say nay, simply because he's Kira, and doesn't like to go for the cockpit. Perhaps that's part of the reason that Uzumi had to selfdestruct himself. What was stopping Kira and Athrun from simply himatting that second wave to hell and going on a killing spree? Not Forbidden, Raider, and Calamity, but their own views on war and how killing is bad.

Perhaps the entire series sort of makes it a joke since Kira and Athrun seem to not even need to kill. Did Heero Yuy ever say "killing is wrong" in Gundam Wing? Nope. He didn't care how many people were up against them, he'd just take that rifle and slaughter them all as a good war protagonist should. And guess what, when Heero finally did succumb to a no-kill policy, it was his wing zero custom that paid a VERY heavy price thanks to the damage wufei racked up.

The reason I say ep 34 is a plot device is that we should look at the rest of the history...in all other encounters, Kira has either drawn with, or has been a clear victor on scorecards against Shinn. Ep 24 Shinn gets the short end, ep 43 Shinn gets the short stick. Concisely and decisively. And guess why ep 34's fiasco had to happen? Marketing. Because Fukuda needed to pimp out the SF.

Answer me this question: would ep 34 turn out the way it did if there was no SF/IJ around the corner? Odds are, Impulse would have gotten trashed and Shinn would have needed an upgrade to Destiny, which would have been able to fight SF on a level playing field instead of just getting owned the way it did in ep 42 and 50.

It was ep 34 that was the pinncale of consumerism and of forcing a story, and of hosing a character. Time and again have I preached the BS effects of that episode...and the results of it, you have all seen. Shinn did the unthinkable, then was the victim of the unimaginable. He struck down a symbol, then got literally thrown into a trash can when he was the main character through half of the series. To what other character has that EVER happened?

Ep 34 should be a lesson to ANYBODY...NEVER EVER force something that would make viewers/readers just go with disbelief. You saw what happened to Shinn. It'll happen with you too if you do it.
Demongod86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 19:58   Link #237
cajunman380
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
@vio5555. Ive already state dmy reasons for this show failing but you brought up an interesting point. i think polarized fanbases were a side effect of tghe bad writing of this series. in any series the only time you can build polarized fanbases is if there is a conflict waiting for a conclusion like to sides meeting head on. here. fukuda lit the fire and in the special episode put thousands of gallons on it to douse it out. the problem is that many fans (especially shinn fans ) are not accepting this because it was all force. im one of those who believe that quire frankly they should have remade the last ten episode rather than the last one because it still does not address the inherent problems that exist in the past few episodes that episode 50 revised sought to correct. all it simply does is provide an end. I feel that shinn should have stayed as he was at the end of the series. at least they would have material to work for in seed 3 becaiuse the whole meeting was just not believable and all fukuda did was sacrifice a fanbase just to end it.

also i keep on hearing people saying that kira nad athrun are ore popular etc, etc,...
all i have to say about it is this. they had gs to establish a fan base. shinn WAS SUPPOSED o be the main character of DESTINY. he had to have a reason for being in the story and he of all characters needed development. the fact that the reson for him being main character and his nerfing occured is what cause many gripes about the show. hell was kamille ever nerfed even though he was as whiny as amuro was? They had development and were given time to change. i feel that the sudden turnaround of shinn in episode 50 edited really hurt his character. the writers have a LOT of fixing to do (if they even intend to use these people for the third seed)

i feel all these issues could have been avoided if kira had been captured by the minerva in episode 34. at least all these confrontations would be more believable to some degree.
cajunman380 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 20:07   Link #238
_X12A_Testament
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Don't forget that fukuda basically decided to make Shinn invincible during the middle to try to garner more popularity, which ended up having an opposite effect. That really irked me and I think others, because it almost made fans resent him and go "HOW exactly is he doing this? ". Especially people who analyze battles and are able to quickly see how things just arent adding up correctly.

It comes down to the elements of good storytelling and fukuda got it wrong. I think everyone agrees on that.
_X12A_Testament is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 20:30   Link #239
cajunman380
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
i agree with your assesment. it comes down to how they were presented. that was probably the one critical element that was overlooked since so much focus was going to visual presentation. they were both victims of godding and nerfing ("although to be honest, shin got the short end of the stick" actually it was the DESTROYS and the EA that really got nerfed here). if that was fukudas attempt to make shinn more popular than he could have done it much better and he could have patched up a few plotholes along the way (IE tell the audienc ewho REALLY killed his family, CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, ETC). the reason for my suggestion on kiras capture is that it would establish an old cast new cast interaction which is something that was sorely needed, yet sorely lacking in this series.
cajunman380 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-05, 21:32   Link #240
demon_god04
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 29
To be Honest Athrun would have been perfect for some old/new caste interaction. It was just he was reduced to a stammering idiot being pulled at by meer and Luna and Meyrin and couldnt say a single complete sentence. Athrun was the link between the two castes not to mention someone whose been down Shinn's road and would have made for some nice character interaction.

edit - just realized... Kira killed Nicole in SEED and Athrun goes nuts and beats him, then in GSD Kira kills Stellar and Shinn goes nuts and beats him
__________________
demon_god04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.