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Old 2012-09-19, 10:41   Link #30681
Jan-Poo
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Well that certainly would be a lot more tragic, but...

Quote:
K: At first I was thinking that it was maybe a terrible wound that chained Yasu to the bed. But that does not seem to be the case at all.

R: It is a pretty adult topic, so I had to obscure it’s depiction.
Considering this I think the genital mutilation is a lot more probable.


BTW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APgcSNVITTI
Someone should do an Umineko hell about this.
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Old 2012-09-19, 10:53   Link #30682
Captain Bluebeard
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
The specific reason the massacre was ignited was for Battler's return. What did the poor sod do to get what he got, again? Giving her a childish promise of being his boybriend six years ago, promise that everyone (the maids, Jessica) stated (indirectly) was stupid to believe.
The logical retribution, of course, was to blow everyone in his face...
Do you even understand what Yasu's motive was? Because you're basically reffering to the many-many-many-many bits forming it, seeming to be actually missing the essence. At least, revenge for forgetting to bring her a pony is not it.

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I'm not saying he doesn't have guts and heart for doing such a thing. I'm saying that everyone forgives her and live happily ever after. Even Eva. Natsuhi. Krauss. Rudolf. Kyrie... c'mon. Nobody here a little resenful of being massacred?
We've been assuming that Prime-Yasu is the culprit just for argument's sake, but I actually don't really believe that. In EP5, Battler reaches a truth. A truth that not only makes him forgive Beato, it even makes him willing to apologize to her. That's a good enough reason to believe that PrimeYasu isn't the culprit, and does not deserve being despised.

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Hm... Eva is a bad person like me, and she has some beef against the maid anyway. You sure that poor woman whose life went to hell forgave Yasu? Apparently yes: in later episodes we see Eva perfecly allright asking forgiveness for being a bad PTSD, grieving aunt to Ange. Not even a 'You killed my family!'. What does Battler and Beatrice think the world is?!
Like Yasu, Eva wasn't a saint either. She did fuck Ange's life up, it's twisted to blame her for feeling remorseful about that fact.

And after all, what if Yasu didn't really kill her family? Yasu, the author of the forgeries isn't PieceBeatrice but MetaBeatrice. PieceBeatrice is the role she assigns to herself. However, in actuality, she is Meta-Beatrice, the one who spins the tales, killing and reviving everyone endlessly.

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I mean a motive that makes me at least feel like you felt with Sweeney. Or Shion. She ended as a spot in the paviment. I didn't even think it was unfair after everything she did. But I could understand where she was coming from, and her motive for going mass murderer was covered for every aspect so throughly I believed it and felt a logic and convincing plot there.
That's a bit controversial in this case. Because Yasu's motive would be perfectly understandable to a person who actually believes in magic. I don't think such people exist (or at least the're very scarce?), but I am willing to accept it in the context of Umineko.

And actually, I do sympathize with (Piece)Yasu. I'm not saying I agree with killing everyone, I'm just saying I can see how she has been hurt, regardless of disagreeing with her actions.

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Mass murder Is not excusable. But Yasu's motive is so weird and shady it's like she wanted to blow something and things went bad from there. So.. like an excuse. "Not my fault even if i say it was... forgive me for starting this madness?"
Are you sure we're on the same page about Yasu's motive?

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"If Yasu showed George the truth, she would be surprised at his response" thats word of god. But she didn't. Instead of taking the options she had (confess, retire, convince, take a leap of faith or stay with Jessica as she anyway wanted) she took... mass murder.
Yean, but you know what? IF! She had no way to know how George might react. And Yasu is always depicted as a really insecure person (considering her body and how she's been brought up, it's natural).

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I've felt insecure, I'm sure you too, and all the others in this discussion. For the ones who have already *ahem* went at it with their lovers: Oi! You there felt insecure when showing yourself for the first time to that special person? Did you had second thoughts? Maybe... don't know... like your only option was to blow away an island with 16 guys in it yourself included?
I say nay...
Yasu's case isn't the same as that. Plus, she's sort of in the middle of a huge mess she herself has been creating for six years.

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But going serious: you don't think about killing a lot of people because you are afraid your boyfriend is not going to like your body. And if you do, go to the nearest mental hospital and do us a favor locking yourself up before something happens.
I seriously believe (and forgive me if my assumptions are rushed) that either you don't get the situation or you're just trying to be sarcastic. But you know, Yasu isn't afraid that George might not like her body. She's scared because it practically ruins his dreams for their relationship's future. Plus, her confession isn't an easy one to make.

Needless to say, I disagree with her choice of not coming clean with George, but it's not like it's hard to guess where it came from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
We don't even know if PrimeYasu was really Kanon & Shannon or the idea to represent herself as two servants was merely metaphorical, we don't know if PrimeYasu played Kanon's role at Jessica's school with Jessica knowing it was Yasu/Shannon in truth, we don't know if George really planned to ask Shannon to marry him or it was just an one sided thing from Yasu/Shannon, just to name a couple of things that are rather important for Yasu.
Although I will agree with most things in this post, this is where I draw the line. It's true that we know almost nothing for certain, but we can be at least 99% sure that Yasu had some reason for writing those stories with herself as the culrpit and hoped to give someone a message through those. So I think it's unlikely she would make them vastly different from the actual events. Prime's events should at least reflect some of the game boards' circumstances.

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Note also that PieceShannon and PieceKanon are strongly in love with George and Jessica and willing to off each other to fulfil their wish. Can the same be said for their Prime versions or they're just a metaphor of a wish of being a certain type of person?
Okay, having said all that I said above, this theory really doesn't seem unrealistic at all. Not sure if I can accept it completely, but at least I'm sure that the game boards are meant to be a huge metaphor about Prime.

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If in all those years didn't realize it either she's very ignorant on anatomy or it's something that can't be seen first glance (if she had a uterus and it was removed/damaged, well at best you'll notice a scar that you won't necessarily connect to a missing/damaged uterus).
She does have such scars. There are vague implies that she shows it to Genji and the others in EP2 (Zombie Kanon scene). And I think it's also implied in other places, but I don't really remember any specific example.

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If she could already realize herself what had happened to her, Genji told her nothing new... but somehow Umineko seems to imply she discovered it only right then and not before as apparently it's in that moment she start to consider herself as furniture.
The red scene doesn't necessarily imply that she just learnt at that very moment. Most probably, she takes out her frustration on Genji and Nanjo when they confess to her how she actually got it that wound

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I like to think they are but that's not what Beatrice insist is her motive. Her motive is Battler forgetting his promise...
No it isn't. It's just one of the key factors that make up her psychosynthesis. It's frankly hasty to call that the motive itself.

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though if Battler had remembered it she wouldn't have turned into Lion. She would have still been an incest baby, tossed off a cliff by Natsuhi and mutilated.
But at least she wouldn't have snapped and got herself into the ShkanontriceXGeosicattler dilemma in the first place.

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I'm being sarcastic so it sounds mean but really, Yasu's motive should have been explained better otherwise what's said isn't enough to justify her actions.
I also agree that Yasu's motive was drawn poorly and wasn't given nearly as much as focus as it was required in order for the reader's to understand it perfectly. This was intentional because Ryukishi (who seems very attached to it by the way) didn't want readers who didn't solve it understand a fuck about it.

But at least he should let those who did understand it 100% without whacking their brains.

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I think it's more correct to say that a side of Yasu knew it wasn't Battler's fault while another found more easier to blame him.
Yasu says she doesn't have the right to blame Battler, which can be more frustrating than actually hating him. After all, she admits it was all in her head.

Battler sin isn't breaking the promise, it's not even remembering about it.

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Well, more than Battler being a moron for forgiving her is: all of sudden the game present Yasu/Beato as someone who's not at fault for what she did. Actually it's Battler who caused all of this so he's the one to blame and that has to apologize.
Nope, this isn't Battler's fault. He may have 'caused' this unintenionally, but this only means he spinned some gears without even realizing. I think his change of heart towards Beato has more to do with Rokenjima Prime.

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Rosa was a bad mother but this didn't necessary mean she hated Maria, just that she failed at being a mother because she chosed using a behaviour that had been used by her relatives on her.
Rosa does love Maria. She's just terrible, terrible, terrible at controling her emotions and keeping her cool, which makes her an awful parent. Love isn't all it takes in order to raise a child properly.

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Yes, she has issues so it's understable she has troubles but the point is she's the one trapping herself in this vicious circle.
Yes, that's pretty much what I was saying.
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Old 2012-09-19, 11:07   Link #30683
UsagiTenpura
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Bah damn you Ryuukishi, why do I bother to try to turn your story into a good one?

On another level, in Yasu's world (the Ushiromiya family) there isn't really any example of a successful love story. The author at least seems to genuinely wants us to care about the various members of the family's love problems. The compassion and empathy of the author and the culprit doesn't seem to match at all. Is the former depicting the later in a completely "black" way on purpose?


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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Do you even understand what Yasu's motive was? Because you're basically reffering to the many-many-many-many bits forming it, seeming to be actually missing the essence. At least, revenge for forgetting to bring her a pony is not it.
That is oddly reminding me of Ryoga from Ranma whom at first the later thought he wanted revenge for a matter of sandwiches at school.
Indeed it feels as if there is something missing.

An idea that I had is that Yasu might not be the mastermind. The game has been compared to chess very often and I'm thinking in that light that Beatrice is like the queen and already long dead. The pawn of Yasu is the one who successfully reached the other side and became the new black queen but she's still not the black king.
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Old 2012-09-19, 11:33   Link #30684
Patchwork Chimera
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Do you even understand what Yasu's motive was? Because you're basically reffering to the many-many-many-many bits forming it, seeming to be actually missing the essence. At least, revenge for forgetting to bring her a pony is not it.
Yasu's hope to be loved, her despair and her confusion come as facepalmin worth... she's had the good things since the begining. She's loved, she's going to marry, she's rich, she doesn't have to deal with kinzo and she could stop all the bad things that happen in her work if she just said 'heir of kinzo here, I'll take enough to live a life and leave the rest of the money to you'. All the siblings would call her the witch Beatrice or even Kinzo if she said so.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
We've been assuming that Prime-Yasu is the culprit just for argument's sake, but I actually don't really believe that. In EP5, Battler reaches a truth. A truth that not only makes him forgive Beato, it even makes him willing to apologize to her. That's a good enough reason to believe that PrimeYasu isn't the culprit, and does not deserve being despised.
Yeah, I don't think she killed them all alone. But she had accomplices and was trying at least to recreate a murder game. So nobody died. She still wanted Battler to see the 'corpses' of his family while he kept enough calm to resolve the whydunit of someone who he barely remembers. So Prime Yasu, at least, was an ass.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Like Yasu, Eva wasn't a saint either. She did fuck Ange's life up, it's twisted to blame her for feeling remorseful about that fact.

And after all, what if Yasu didn't really kill her family? Yasu, the author of the forgeries isn't PieceBeatrice but MetaBeatrice. PieceBeatrice is the role she assigns to herself. However, in actuality, she is Meta-Beatrice, the one who spins the tales, killing and reviving everyone endlessly.
Eva is apologizing for being a bad Aunt over and over in twilight. Beatrice is eating some snacks and floating around her husband.

Besides, Eva is not the type to forgive some stranger's mistakes if they led to her losing something. She's kind of an ass, too. Someone had to start the circus, and that someone was Yasu even if she didn't kill anyone.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
That's a bit controversial in this case. Because Yasu's motive would be perfectly understandable to a person who actually believes in magic. I don't think such people exist (or at least the're very scarce?), but I am willing to accept it in the context of Umineko.

And actually, I do sympathize with (Piece)Yasu. I'm not saying I agree with killing everyone, I'm just saying I can see how she has been hurt, regardless of disagreeing with her actions.

Are you sure we're on the same page about Yasu's motive?
Yes, I know her motive. What I was saying is that it sound really weird and non-convincing to me. The 'wanted to blow up something' was just to show how much sense her starting point made to me.


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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Yean, but you know what? IF! She had no way to know how George might react. And Yasu is always depicted as a really insecure person (considering her body and how she's been brought up, it's natural).

Yasu's case isn't the same as that. Plus, she's sort of in the middle of a huge mess she herself has been creating for six years.

I seriously believe (and forgive me if my assumptions are rushed) that either you don't get the situation or you're just trying to be sarcastic. But you know, Yasu isn't afraid that George might not like her body. She's scared because it practically ruins his dreams for their relationship's future. Plus, her confession isn't an easy one to make.

Needless to say, I disagree with her choice of not coming clean with George, but it's not like it's hard to guess where it came from.
One of the triggers to make her so inclined to murder was this. She was so worried about George's reaction. Why didn't she use that 'bet magic' in betting on something else than trying to ruin the day of a guy she didn't even knew? She could've made a bet like 'I come clean. Red, George likes me and we go. Black, George doesn't like me and I stay with milady. Special slot (0): Battler remembers me.' She went and involucred bribes, gold, murder misteries and explosions.



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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I have the feeling you're confusing the meta-layer/Rokkenjima Prime with the gameboards here. It looks as if you're talking partially about Tohya. If meta-Battler in the games is representing the part of Tohya that's Battler, then to him, if he realises that Beatrice is the culprit on the gameboard but might not be the culprit in Rokkenjima Prime, then maybe he has reason to forgive her. If Beatrice is painting herself as the culprit in the stories to cover for someone, then he could feel bad about thinking it was her. (Particularly if Battler is the real culprit or an accomplice! )

The impression I got isn't that Battler forgave Beatrice, but that he realised that she wasn't to blame in the first place and that he even wanted her forgiveness. Now, if what he realised was "If only I hadn't forgotten my promise, Beatrice wouldn't have killed my family! It's all my fault!" then OK, things are messed up there. But it doesn't make sense for him to think that, in my opinion. Jesus or not, it isn't a logical train of thought for him to follow. Meta-Battler didn't get presented as a person who would simply forgive mass murder in real life. But he did grow into someone who wasn't always horrified by "fictional" murder on the gameboards - like in the love duel, where he was hardly yelling at Jessica/George/Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice for the murders they committed during that.
Put in purple were wyou wrote the point I was trying to make. Cuz I like purple, no particular reason. Battler can forgive judas for all I care, but his reasons and reactions are so messed up is not funny. That's what I was trying to say. Where did that line of thought engendrated, Battler?

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Which makes Bern the biggest hypocrite in the world for the way she treats Ange and Erika. Meanwhile Beatrice's "torture" was just a front all along, anyway.
Bern has her standards. So she was a bitch, I never said she wasn't. But remember, Erika is a piece created from herself. Is like if Yasu started treating bad Shannon or Beatrice: she's just bitching at something that in the general POV is herself.

At the end, Ange got her anwers and everything else, and Erika became a detective/witch. Earn your happy ending, and all that.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It just doesn't matter how much pain she's in, it doesn't make sense to randomly kill everyone.

In the first place, it was not the revelation of Yasu's sexual problems, or the revelation that her most trusted guardians were lying to her her whole life or anything like that that actually triggered any actual intent to murder. The trigger was Battler's return.

So how could news of Battler's return cause Yasu to plan and carry out a mass murder?

In other words, it's not a matter of her "snapping" from pain. In fact, it's more like she "snapped" from hope. So what we have is a situation where Yasu's motive for killing over a dozen people is not vengeance, nor desire for destruction caused by a sense of powerlessness, nor some other motive that places intrinsic meaning in the act of taking the lives of the victims. No, the motive is to create a chance of Battler remembering her. In other words, these murders are no more than a means to an end. The victims are less than human. They're consumable tools. They're pieces.

This is not a satisfying motive for murder. It's a fantasy motive.

Yasu simply has no "mystery" motive. That's why I think Yasu is innocent in Prime.

From Dlanor's Forward in Our Confessions (previously translated by LyricalTwilight):

Without love, it can't be seen.

They are her words.
But I shall repeat them.

Love exists in everyone's hearts.

Her true tragedy was that she couldn't see it.
So Yasu's motive was fantasy. In real world she doesn't have any.

Wait, what?
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Old 2012-09-19, 14:06   Link #30685
tempteste
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In the end the real problem with Yasu (assuming she was a mutilated man) is not that she doesn't have a penis, but the fact that she wasn't born a woman.
I don't think that's the case. Yasu had no problem with being male or female. It was more like she had a problem with being incomplete woman and incomplete man.
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Old 2012-09-19, 15:20   Link #30686
AuraTwilight
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On another level, in Yasu's world (the Ushiromiya family) there isn't really any example of a successful love story.
Uh...what about Eva/Hideoyshi?

Quote:
So Yasu's motive was fantasy. In real world she doesn't have any.

Wait, what?
It means she's probably not the actual murderer and is claiming credit for a tremendous crime she didn't do.
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Old 2012-09-19, 15:47   Link #30687
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Or there wasn't a crime, and it got to look that way due to the stories.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2012-09-19, 16:06   Link #30688
Patchwork Chimera
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Uh...what about Eva/Hideoyshi?
I find ironic that the only succesfull love story is about an arranged marriage XD

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It means she's probably not the actual murderer and is claiming credit for a tremendous crime she didn't do.
That's widely accepted. But then makes all EP7 and part of EP6 lose 70% of their plot as a pile of dirty, foul misleading and lies.

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Or there wasn't a crime, and it got to look that way due to the stories.
I thought that too, but then I decided to follow Van Dine's 'Has to be a crime' in my headcanon (even if it doesn't apply to all the game) and think that there was one for the sake of all the hours I spent theorizing. I mean, 'there was no crime' is such a let down for someone who spent all those hours sitting through Red vs Blue battles...
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Old 2012-09-19, 17:32   Link #30689
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I find ironic that the only succesfull love story is about an arranged marriage XD
Errr....isn't Krauss and Natsuhi the arranged marriage? I'm pretty sure Eva chose Hideyoshi.

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That's widely accepted. But then makes all EP7 and part of EP6 lose 70% of their plot as a pile of dirty, foul misleading and lies.
Quite the opposite; it infact makes them more meaningful.
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Old 2012-09-19, 17:32   Link #30690
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
I find ironic that the only succesfull love story is about an arranged marriage XD
I don't think Eva/Hideyoshi was arranged. The arranged marriage was Krauss/Natsuhi, which, incidentally, was also a successful love story.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
That's widely accepted. But then makes all EP7 and part of EP6 lose 70% of their plot as a pile of dirty, foul misleading and lies.
How so?
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Old 2012-09-19, 17:58   Link #30691
Patchwork Chimera
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Errr....isn't Krauss and Natsuhi the arranged marriage? I'm pretty sure Eva chose Hideyoshi.
Eva said something about 'First you marry with the most convenient man, and after the ceremony you try to build love. It worked for me!' Maybe it was a marriage meeting, but I'm pretty sure she married with a profitable guy and then searched that silly thing called love. So maybe it wasn't a arranged marriage but a 'business convenience marriage', sorry.

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(Wanderer) I don't think Eva/Hideyoshi was arranged. The arranged marriage was Krauss/Natsuhi, which, incidentally, was also a successful love story.
Krauss and Natsuhi's marriage is not a healthy one. Too much miscomunication (I'm pretty sure I wrote that word wrong, but I'm too lazy to search google for the correct spelling) and belittling and Krauss being a complete moron while Natsuhi is standing in the line of insanity... um... was your comment sarcasm?
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How so?
About EP7. We find a complete redaction about Yasu's life (since the how her grandparents met still how she came to be), motive, views on the world and aspirations. Then we talk about her borderline MPD, painfilled days, and etc. We learn more about her than from everyone in the series except maybe Ange. Before that EP6 had an overly long almost-but-not-quite-out-of-the-blue duel Kanon vs Shannon vs Beatrice.

It's all about Yasu. The last games are all about whydunnit. So, to remark the gargantuan importance of whydunnit in a novel that's all about the heart, obviously you'd have to write everything about the culprit's thoughts and feelings to drive home the importance of why. You know, justify a little the neverending made-me-want-to-tear-my-hair repetitions of "Without love, you cannot see it(it being the motive)"

Then you say 'The crime wasn't her fault/she didn't do it'. I got confused there. So EP7 was just the maid's sob story, and the real culprit is still in the shadows or lost in between lines about conspiracies and grudges? Were's the heart? Oi, really. Or I'm slow or something fishy happened there.

If he just wanted to develop characters, he could've focused a little bit more on Genji and Kumasawa. You know, they are legendary for not being really known or deeply talked about. They're less developed than Shanon's bust. Less than Kinzo and his DESIRE. More than Hideyoshi, but not for much.

I really liked Ep7. It was soothing, creepy and entertaining. I don't want to lower the merit of one of my favorites by believing that Yasu is completely innocent and it was all a misunderstanding.

On another topic, I finally got Hane -not the transcripts in the web, but the real tips cd-. Black Battler looked like he was crossing his eyes, so I couldn't stop my giggles. The killer electric fan was made better by Battler and Jessica's crying faces everytime they got into an horrible stage.
Shanon and Battler waking up in a bed, hugging each other. Way to tease, Ryu. Way to tease.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-19 at 19:26.
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Old 2012-09-19, 19:13   Link #30692
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post

It's all about Yasu. The last games are all about whydunnit. So, to remark the gargantuan importance of whydunnit in a novel that's all about the heart, obviously you'd have to write everything about the culprit's thoughts and feelings to drive home the importance of why. You know, justify a little the neverending made-me-want-to-tear-my-hair repetitions of "Without love, you cannot see it(it being the motive)"

Then you say 'The crime wasn't her fault/she didn't do it'. I got confused there. So EP7 was just the maid's sob story, and the real culprit is still in the shadows or lost in between lines about conspiracies and grudges? Were's the heart? Oi, really. Or I'm slow or something fishy happened there.
.
The only "crimes" we actually know she did was to write 3 stories. Beatrice's and Battlers characterization wouldn't make sense if she actually had committed the crimes. Unless of course both of them are insane.

e- The whole issue that Beatrice doesn't have an actual motive in Our Confessions, she's working entirely on a meta level. Its like an author killing off his characters. She/he has absolutely no need to do it, but he has to so that the story can progress in the matter the he/she has planned.
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Old 2012-09-19, 20:09   Link #30693
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I think the general idea about Yasu and her past is that her past doesn't serve as a motive but to get us to understand her mindsetting so that we are supposed to understand why she decided to kill (or to write stories in which she killed) for a certain motive.

It's sort of saying that without knowing Rosa and Maria's relation, how Rosa deals with her, how important is Sakutarou and which are Maria's beliefs we wouldn't understand why Maria would dream to become a witch and murder her mother in the most gruesome ways, merely because Rosa broke one of her toys in punishment.

However with Yasu things become more troublesome as while MetaMaria's actions are dismissed as an 'innocent' fantasy of PieceMaria it's not so easy to apply the same reasoning to Yasu even when we assume that PrimeYasu is innocent and PieceYasu is only a fantasy.

That is because no one is actively trying to judge MetaMaria's for killing her mother repetitely and anyway Maria's situation is depicted so well that even if her actions are wrong you can understand how she could snap.

PieceYasu is however being judged and, through her, indirectly we're judging PrimeYasu and Ryukishi himself.

PieceYasu isn't a random fantasy disconnected by the context, it's part of a carefully studied story that is supposed to be realistic so we expect her motive to be realistic or at least deemed realistic by who wrote her.
In short it's like her author is telling us that 'people can kill for this reason' but the reason in itself is simply too weak. Now we can try to insert it in the setting because we can say that even if Maria killed Rosa due to Sakutarous' death, that's not the only reason.
Umineko doesn't help us. Yasu, differently from Maria who blamed Rosa for other things as well, insists she's doing it due to Battler only (Don't hate me. You guys didn't do anything wrong. If you're gonna hate, hate that guy who trashed his promise for 6 long years.). We can either say that Yasu is in denial or that the experiences she lived unconsciously twisted her so much that she could really kill for such reasons.

Her experiences still aren't depicted with the same amount of drama Maria's have.

Her life doesn't seem so desperate so her clinging to the promise Battler made doesn't seem to equate with how Maria clung to Sakutarou.

It's possible Ryukishi intended them to be one and the same or that for Yasu that promise was even more important that what Sakutarou was for Maria but that's not the feeling his work transmit.

If I've to compare Yasu with Maria or even Ange, Yasu doesn't come out as the one with the worst life when instead it's completely possible she was the one with the worst life.
It's just I get way more realistic moments of happiness for Yasu than for Maria and since Yasu hides behind the Shannon facade it's hard to assume she might not really be as happy as she might seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
From Dlanor's Forward in Our Confessions (previously translated by LyricalTwilight):

Without love, it can't be seen.

They are her words.
But I shall repeat them.

Love exists in everyone's hearts.

Her true tragedy was that she couldn't see it.
Interesting! I've forgotten that part but now I see how it's very fitting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Well I did suggest a drastically different interpretation of Yasu's body that cannot be loved.
She has lethal health problems that are going to kill her soon anyway. Basically she's in the same situation as Kinzo.
It would have been an interesting idea (and it would tie Umineko more closely with '10 little indians') but I don't think it's the intended solution... though I personally favour it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Although I will agree with most things in this post, this is where I draw the line. It's true that we know almost nothing for certain, but we can be at least 99% sure that Yasu had some reason for writing those stories with herself as the culrpit and hoped to give someone a message through those. So I think it's unlikely she would make them vastly different from the actual events. Prime's events should at least reflect some of the game boards' circumstances.
There are things though that I think she couldn't give away or that could be her delusions. While the fact that Kanon was seen at Jessica's school is proof of Kanon's existence, if Jessica had merely asked her to dress up as a boy and the stories were to tell this to us ShKanon would be revealed in Ep 2.

George might have had feelings for her but it's also possible Yasu is assuming he would go to lenghts that real George isn't ready to go yet. After all she always assume in her stories that everyone would have not much problems in being her accomplices but we can't be sure that's true.

If you assume that in Prime there was never a Kanon to begin with it, it becomes much easier to accept that Yasu could play two roles without troubles and without anyone recognizing her as she did it only in a story and not in the 'real world'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
She does have such scars. There are vague implies that she shows it to Genji and the others in EP2 (Zombie Kanon scene). And I think it's also implied in other places, but I don't really remember any specific example.
I'll need to reread Ep 2 because i don't remember this then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
The red scene doesn't necessarily imply that she just learnt at that very moment. Most probably, she takes out her frustration on Genji and Nanjo when they confess to her how she actually got it that wound
I considered this but in this case hope should have died in Yasu long ago. It's the difference of the drama between who's blind by... well nearly his birth and who becomes blind. It's always horrible to be blind but for the second there's also the trauma while for the other blindness was there right from the beginning.
It's still horrible but in a different way... though people can react differently to things so maybe this point is mooth and Rykishi can chose to have Yasu act as he prefers.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
No it isn't. It's just one of the key factors that make up her psychosynthesis. It's frankly hasty to call that the motive itself.
She's the one insisting that's her motive. You can say she's lying or that she's in denial but her words are what we're given.

Quote:
"Don't hate me. You guys didn't do anything wrong. If you're gonna hate, hate that guy who trashed his promise for 6 long years."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
But at least she wouldn't have snapped and got herself into the ShkanontriceXGeosicattler dilemma in the first place.
We can't really know if she wouldn't have snapped. Surely her life would have been different but she could have snapped anyway. Or not. It's all in a catbox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
But at least he should let those who did understand it 100% without whacking their brains.
Exactly. Since he talked about how the motive was important he should have explained it better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Yasu says she doesn't have the right to blame Battler, which can be more frustrating than actually hating him. After all, she admits it was all in her head.

Battler sin isn't breaking the promise, it's not even remembering about it.
I don't really like to talk about it being a 'sin'. There's too much involved to make Battler really guilty.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Nope, this isn't Battler's fault. He may have 'caused' this unintenionally, but this only means he spinned some gears without even realizing. I think his change of heart towards Beato has more to do with Rokenjima Prime.
I'm not saying it is, it's just how the game seems to present things at first glance. Battler is sinful for forgetting the promise and this push Beato to do something horrible but this didn't set them square as Battler apologizes to her.

Yes, probably in truth the apology is also tied to the fact MetaBeato didn't really kill people, though making him believe she did so was pretty cruel.
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Old 2012-09-19, 20:19   Link #30694
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Quote:
Krauss and Natsuhi's marriage is not a healthy one. Too much miscomunication (I'm pretty sure I wrote that word wrong, but I'm too lazy to search google for the correct spelling) and belittling and Krauss being a complete moron while Natsuhi is standing in the line of insanity... um... was your comment sarcasm?
Have you ever met a married couple who's been together for more than ten years?

They're pretty much all like that to some degree. A bunch of external real-world problems fucking with your life and stressing you guys out doesn't mean your love is a failure.
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Old 2012-09-19, 21:01   Link #30695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Put in purple were wyou wrote the point I was trying to make. Cuz I like purple, no particular reason. Battler can forgive judas for all I care, but his reasons and reactions are so messed up is not funny. That's what I was trying to say. Where did that line of thought engendrated, Battler?
Yeah, I knew what your point was. What I was saying is that that interpretation of Battler doesn't make any sense and is contrary to his characterisation, and that thus, it probably isn't what actually happened. Battler's reaction pretty much only makes any sense if Beatrice/Yasu is not the culprit in Rokkenjima Prime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I'll need to reread Ep 2 because i don't remember this then.
Maybe it's this bit?

Quote:
It was Kanon.

......His breath was feeble, ......and the puddles of mud he left quickly became drenched bright-red.
When Nanjo held him and turned him face up, there was a deep, gruesome scar right in the center of his chest, as though a spear or something had been stuck there.

Even now, deep-red blood poured out from there...!
I'm not sure. It does mention a scar, though.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post

It's all about Yasu. The last games are all about whydunnit. So, to remark the gargantuan importance of whydunnit in a novel that's all about the heart, obviously you'd have to write everything about the culprit's thoughts and feelings to drive home the importance of why. You know, justify a little the neverending made-me-want-to-tear-my-hair repetitions of "Without love, you cannot see it(it being the motive)"

Then you say 'The crime wasn't her fault/she didn't do it'. I got confused there. So EP7 was just the maid's sob story, and the real culprit is still in the shadows or lost in between lines about conspiracies and grudges? Were's the heart? Oi, really. Or I'm slow or something fishy happened there.

...

I really liked Ep7. It was soothing, creepy and entertaining. I don't want to lower the merit of one of my favorites by believing that Yasu is completely innocent and it was all a misunderstanding.
The strange thing about Ep7 is that although it went into depth about Yasu, what it never did was give her a decent motive for killing everyone. During the time we focused on her past, she definitely didn't seem like someone who could commit a murder. And then, we simply aren't shown what happened to her later on, during the time when she would have had to be planning to kill everyone. Supposedly, she was driven to it by various things that happened to her, but we never saw the most critical time period.

So...why, in a game which is all about Yasu, aren't we shown her motive for killing everyone? It looks as if you're satisfied with ep 7 as motivation for a culprit Yasu. But I'm really not satisfied with it at all. It's as if the "whydunnit" was deliberately omitted. Yasu is someone who can't manage to make a phone call to Battler, who doesn't want revenge and only blames herself (going by all the reds about Beatrice and what Beatrice says in ep 8, etcetera - although it's arguable she secretly wants some revenge against Battler), and yet...who is willing to murder everyone? Even if saying that actually she did want revenge against Battler, she didn't seem like a person who would kill all of his family - also her family - in order to do so.

The only Yasu culprit theory I can see support for is the one where she chooses to lock Rokkenjima up in a cat box for all of time so that all of her loves can be realised. But problem is, I don't think she's capable of murder, and even if she was, that motive would boil down to "Yasu did it because she's insane". Which is an unsatisfying motive for a culprit.

All this does lend itself to questioning whether she ever really developed a motive to kill. Ryukishi may have left out showing her deciding to do the murders because that never happened. It's still rather unsatisfying; I really want to know what happened during that time, whether she's a murderess or not.

...Agh. I wanted to write more about the "heart" of the story, but I've got to go now. Anyway, what if the "without love it can't be seen" thing was not talking about Yasu's motive to kill, but instead partially referring to her not being the culprit? Or even to there being no actual culprit for Rokkenjima Prime?
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Old 2012-09-19, 21:30   Link #30696
Patchwork Chimera
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Yeah, I knew what your point was. What I was saying is that that interpretation of Battler doesn't make any sense and is contrary to his characterisation, and that thus, it probably isn't what actually happened. Battler's reaction pretty much only makes any sense if Beatrice/Yasu is not the culprit in Rokkenjima Prime.
Or if Beatrice/Yasu is deluding herself with thinking how he'd forgive her if he knew. But you have a stronger theory there, so it's not so probable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
The strange thing about Ep7 is that although it went into depth about Yasu, what it never did was give her a decent motive for killing everyone. During the time we focused on her past, she definitely didn't seem like someone who could commit a murder. And then, we simply aren't shown what happened to her later on, during the time when she would have had to be planning to kill everyone. Supposedly, she was driven to it by various things that happened to her, but we never saw the most critical time period.

So...why, in a game which is all about Yasu, aren't we shown her motive for killing everyone? It looks as if you're satisfied with ep 7 as motivation for a culprit Yasu. But I'm really not satisfied with it at all. It's as if the "whydunnit" was deliberately omitted. Yasu is someone who can't manage to make a phone call to Battler, who doesn't want revenge and only blames herself (going by all the reds about Beatrice and what Beatrice says in ep 8, etcetera - although it's arguable she secretly wants some revenge against Battler), and yet...who is willing to murder everyone? Even if saying that actually she did want revenge against Battler, she didn't seem like a person who would kill all of his family - also her family - in order to do so.

The only Yasu culprit theory I can see support for is the one where she chooses to lock Rokkenjima up in a cat box for all of time so that all of her loves can be realised. But problem is, I don't think she's capable of murder, and even if she was, that motive would boil down to "Yasu did it because she's insane". Which is an unsatisfying motive for a culprit.

All this does lend itself to questioning whether she ever really developed a motive to kill. Ryukishi may have left out showing her deciding to do the murders because that never happened. It's still rather unsatisfying; I really want to know what happened during that time, whether she's a murderess or not.

...Agh. I wanted to write more about the "heart" of the story, but I've got to go now. Anyway, what if the "without love it can't be seen" thing was not talking about Yasu's motive to kill, but instead partially referring to her not being the culprit? Or even to there being no actual culprit for Rokkenjima Prime?
I'm not satisfied with how Yasu's motives where put. But let's say, there's an episode about Kyrie, just as exhaustive with all her backstory and everything else as 7 was with Yasu's. And she's refered as 'culprit'. One. Entire. Episode.

All that development, 'confesion', gathering of stories and testimonies...Then it's like 'alright, that's her. But she's not the culprit, you know?'. What the hell was I doing there, then?!

EP7 was basically a huge mine of answers and posibilities, and the last half was all Yasuyasuyasuyasu...Beatrice. And she didn't do it. So the real core of Umineko, the whydunnit, is never adressed? I don't want to see EP7 as a huge troll. So I have to think at least that, even if Yasu didn't kill anyone directly, she was responsible for starting the massacre. Or just forgot to switch off the bomb and had weird fantasies of murdering in cold blood 16 people.

As I said long ago, there's a tonshit of 'could or couldn't have happened' in Umineko, but there's some things that are necesary to at least pretend to acknowledge to follow the discussion, namely:

There was some kind of murder -if we don't think anything happened in that island, there's no point in trying to solve nothing about Umineko. All is fantasy.
--Alternatively, there was a misunderstanding/accidental murder that triggered the bomb. It's not like Maria was just playing with a clock and all went bang.

If a murder (fake, real, accidental or whatever) was commited, someone has to be the culprit. It didn't happen for the whims of magic, like Beatrice is so insistent we believe. Be indirectly, reluctantly or oportunistically someone made a huge mess before the island went boom. If that didn't happen, discussing about Umineko has no point. It's just an accidental explosion that erased half an island.

Even if those two points to begin with are highly controversial, it's necesary to at least pretend to believe them in order to make some type of reasoning in here. Otherwise the answer to all the game is "Accident/didn't happened/all was a dream" That'd be lame in so many levels I'd better uninstall Umineko and go at it with Higurashi again...


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Have you ever met a married couple who's been together for more than ten years?

They're pretty much all like that to some degree. A bunch of external real-world problems fucking with your life and stressing you guys out doesn't mean your love is a failure.
So the man treats her wife like some doll, doesn't let her talk, doesn't defend her when his sister basically calls her a slut and doesn't acknowledge her efforts to be recognized as a good wife. If Natsuhi believed her position as wife was so strong and acknowledged by her husband, she'd not have delusions about Kinzo coming back to life praising her. She'd not cry alone in the hallways because his husband, again, dismissed her. The more I can see in that relationship is a guy forced to marry a woman and sort of getting used to her, and a woman so despaired for him to treat her as a wife and to belong to the family that she'd go into psycotic bursts when something else was piled to dismiss her as just a borrowed uterus that has no consequence in the family.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-19 at 21:56.
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Old 2012-09-19, 21:43   Link #30697
LyricalAura
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The way I see it is that on the surface, without looking at motivations, every single piece of evidence circumstantially points at Yasu as the sole murderer. Even if the identity of the real killer is lost in the cat box, isn't there some value in digging to the very root of the disaster and proving her innocent?

Also, @PatchworkChimera: I am not AuraTwilight.
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Old 2012-09-20, 01:23   Link #30698
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
I'm not satisfied with how Yasu's motives where put. But let's say, there's an episode about Kyrie, just as exhaustive with all her backstory and everything else as 7 was with Yasu's. And she's refered as 'culprit'. One. Entire. Episode.

All that development, 'confesion', gathering of stories and testimonies...Then it's like 'alright, that's her. But she's not the culprit, you know?'. What the hell was I doing there, then?!

EP7 was basically a huge mine of answers and posibilities, and the last half was all Yasuyasuyasuyasu...Beatrice. And she didn't do it. So the real core of Umineko, the whydunnit, is never adressed? I don't want to see EP7 as a huge troll. So I have to think at least that, even if Yasu didn't kill anyone directly, she was responsible for starting the massacre. Or just forgot to switch off the bomb and had weird fantasies of murdering in cold blood 16 people.
That really is the problem with Umineko, from the point of view of seeking the culprit. Yasu gets loads of attention, but her motive is weak and doesn't fit with the themes of the story and Battler's reactions. However, if it's not her and there is a sole culprit, that culprit has not had the right attention to them paid by the story. (In fact, many of the characters have hardly been paid any attention at all...like Hideyoshi, Genji, Gohda, etc.) We don't know who they are. And they don't have a satisfying motive either. I think there's some consensus that based on what we know, none of the characters has a good motive to kill everyone on the island. They might have the motivation to kill some, but not all.

It's possible that from Ryukishi's point of view, the "whodunnit" is just the "whodunnit" of the gameboards, and that the "whydunnit" for the gameboards is just that Shkanon were the puppets of meta-Beato as she wrote her stories. As in, Shkanon had no real motive other than a meta-motive.

So...maybe in the end, Ryukishi didn't even mean to tell us the culprit, and the mystery was the mystery of "who is Beatrice", which episode 7 and the rest of the series did tell us. The mystery of the culprit of the gameboards and the mystery of Beatrice's heart and Yasu. It could even be what LyricalAura suggested, and that proving the innocence of Yasu is the true mystery to solve even if we'll never know the real culprit.

Yes, it's weak from the traditional mystery perspective. I wanted to know the culprit and why they did it...but it seems that's not the story Ryukishi wanted to tell. I think the only way that the story Ryukishi wrote could have told us the "real" culprit is if the theory of there being no deliberate mass murdering culprit but a tragedy of misunderstandings is correct. He's shown us that the Ushiromiyas are flawed people who could potentially shoot someone if the circumstances were right. Something like the ep 7 tea party only without an "I'm randomly and stupidly evil" motive from Rudolf and Kyrie could work.

Actually, with the fake murder game thing, as has been mentioned by others before, if that game was what happened, I'd feel rather uncomfortably as if Battler is the best choice of culprit; after all, he's the one the game would be aimed at. Nearly everyone else could potentially have been an accomplice to Beato, but not him, the target. The person in the best (...worst..) position to freak out with paranoia and start shooting people once he thought a mass murder was occurring.

Although...were the characters really as bad as the stories say? Ep 8 had everyone being fluffy and nice. Ange had to question what the truth was, and that was either a forgery (maybe Tohya's) or something in Ange's imagination. The thing about the games is that they were written by Beatrice, and as has been mentioned up the page, although Beatrice went on about love existing in everyone's hearts, "Her true tragedy was that she couldn't see it". Yet at the same time it seems she's making herself the scapegoat for the very sake of those people. So many contradictions!

Even assuming Yasu didn't kill directly, there are certainly ways like the ones you mentioned where she could have had a hand in it. Those can even work if she has no intention whatsoever of killing anybody. With fake murder game theory + accidental murders theory, she provided a stage where things could go wrong. But that one doesn't automatically make her a culprit, just a cause.
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Old 2012-09-20, 01:51   Link #30699
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
So the man treats her wife like some doll, doesn't let her talk, doesn't defend her when his sister basically calls her a slut and doesn't acknowledge her efforts to be recognized as a good wife.
Arguing with Eva isn't productive, and Natsuhi isn't able to keep her cool in tense situations.

You're going to have to point out where he doesn't acknowledge her or treats her like a doll. That's never stated and you're probably impressing your own values as fact. The heart of the matter is that the two of them hold a strict adherence to the traditional Japanese ideal of a marriage, but their life difficulties make things tumultuous.

Quote:
If Natsuhi believed her position as wife was so strong and acknowledged by her husband, she'd not have delusions about Kinzo coming back to life praising her.
Natsuhi is severely mentally ill and thinks she murdered a baby. Her mental illness is not Krauss' or her fault.

Quote:
She'd not cry alone in the hallways because his husband, again, dismissed her. The more I can see in that relationship is a guy forced to marry a woman and sort of getting used to her, and a woman so despaired for him to treat her as a wife and to belong to the family that she'd go into psycotic bursts when something else was piled to dismiss her as just a borrowed uterus that has no consequence in the family.
You're judging their entire relationship by THE MOST DIFFICULT WEEKEND OF EITHER OF THEIR LIVES.

Why aren't you bringing up how they acted when they were still dating? When they couldn't conceive a baby? When Kinzo recently passed away and they both contributed equally to finding the situation and appreciated each other?

Instead, you're focusing on the moment where all of Krauss's siblings were trying to incriminate Krauss and bankrupt him and Natsuhi lost her cool in an argument with Eva that had them both being disruptive and loud.
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Old 2012-09-20, 02:11   Link #30700
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
So the man treats her wife like some doll, doesn't let her talk, doesn't defend her when his sister basically calls her a slut and doesn't acknowledge her efforts to be recognized as a good wife. If Natsuhi believed her position as wife was so strong and acknowledged by her husband, she'd not have delusions about Kinzo coming back to life praising her. She'd not cry alone in the hallways because his husband, again, dismissed her. The more I can see in that relationship is a guy forced to marry a woman and sort of getting used to her, and a woman so despaired for him to treat her as a wife and to belong to the family that she'd go into psycotic bursts when something else was piled to dismiss her as just a borrowed uterus that has no consequence in the family.
Okay, on this specific point, I disagree. If we take EP5 into account (and I don't see why we shouldnt), even though they were arranged, Krauss was very sensitive to this fact, and did his best to treat her with affection. And eventually, they built a genuine, pleasant relationship out of it. While Krauss does seem to be somewhat of a chauvinist, I'm pretty sure he DOES care a lot about his wife.

And to be as fair as possible, they're under A LOT of stress in 1986, but, y'know ... at least they're hiding the corpse together. Y'know, as a team and stuff. And they both lose their shit when they think the other is in danger. Aaaaaaand with all due respect to Natsuhi's determination, she is both very emotional, and not too clever. In a tense discussion with his siblings, it was probably for his best to ask Natsuhi to leave. She kept having outbursts that were rather childish for a 50 year old woman.

Though I agree, Eva deserved a serious bitch-slap or SOMETHING when she said those things. I particularly enjoy the anime version of the scene, which shows Kyrie and Rosa sipping their tea CALMLY AS FUCK during the entire exchange. At least Rudolf looked like he felt bad.

edit : Oh, I was ninja'd by AuraTwilight
But no seriously go watch that scene in the anime as Kyrosa gives no shits at all, it's almost beautiful. As if to say "Man she pulls this shit every year when we come here, EVERY YEAR MAN."
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