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Old 2012-09-18, 22:01   Link #10561
Kaisos Erranon
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Okay, now that I think I understand a little more about what Nisio is trying to accomplish with this character and this arc, I think I'm a hell of a lot more enthusiastic about the manga again.
Spoiler for speculation:
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Old 2012-09-19, 10:57   Link #10562
DawnEmperor
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what the heck? How does Iihiko qualify as a protagonist character? Is it just some overpowered designation now?
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Old 2012-09-19, 10:59   Link #10563
willx
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
what the heck? How does Iihiko qualify as a protagonist character? Is it just some overpowered designation now?
Knowing Nishio? Maybe he's a protagonist from another series?
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Old 2012-09-19, 11:32   Link #10564
K. Shiruto
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How about...

Spoiler for 163:


Motherfucking Nisio does it again! I can't wait to get my hands on the raw.
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Old 2012-09-19, 11:55   Link #10565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Okay, now that I think I understand a little more about what Nisio is trying to accomplish with this character and this arc, I think I'm a hell of a lot more enthusiastic about the manga again.
Spoiler for speculation:
But didn't she still accomplish this in the end of the True Flask Plan Arc? It would seem that she saw an impossibility being made right in front of her.
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Old 2012-09-19, 12:19   Link #10566
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
what the heck? How does Iihiko qualify as a protagonist character? Is it just some overpowered designation now?
The idea is that there are some people who "win" no matter what, but that these kind of people only appear once every thousand years or so.
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But didn't she still accomplish this in the end of the True Flask Plan Arc? It would seem that she saw an impossibility being made right in front of her.
Well, yeah, she "beat a protagonist", so now the only thing left that she can't do is kill herself.
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Old 2012-09-19, 14:45   Link #10567
orangejuicetang
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But didn't she still accomplish this in the end of the True Flask Plan Arc? It would seem that she saw an impossibility being made right in front of her.
Although the way she 'beat' a protagonist was pretty indirectly. Since from what I recall, she pretty much Zen confront Medaka rather then going against Medaka herself directly by making Zen into an 'artificial protagonist' or something, and then the competition between the two was an 'indirect' one like the elections rather than a 'direct' one like a battle or something. So perhaps it's still possible for a 'protagonist' to defeat her in a direct battle or something?

Well, that's all just random guessing and theorycrafting on my end, so feel free to dismiss it as wrong.
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Old 2012-09-19, 15:35   Link #10568
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
So perhaps it's still possible for a 'protagonist' to defeat her in a direct battle or something?
That's exactly why Iihiko beats her. Protagonists, by definition (the definition used here, at least), do not lose.
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Old 2012-09-19, 16:01   Link #10569
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Ah, I see where you're getting at.
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Old 2012-09-19, 17:08   Link #10570
Naginoura
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This is why it's always better to wait a little before going all crazy about a chapter with Nisio --and spoilers no less. Iihiko looks like he came from a different world... Maybe he was active in an Edo period manga, travelling with a monk or something... (with his Asura like design and all)
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Old 2012-09-19, 17:20   Link #10571
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You know, Orange, it's still strange, since Medaka herself said she'd lose to Ajimu, and she's the protagonist.

I guess It was possible she was just bullshiting us. One way or the other, she was giving us false information in the sentence "I'd prostrate before her", If she's still a MC.
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Old 2012-09-19, 17:49   Link #10572
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Well, if Ajimu can't beat Iihiko that would mean he's the main antagonist (i do not know what the japanese term for protagonist is, but if it's something along the lines of main character, or centre character, then the main antagonist-protagonist pair should be untouchable for Ajimu)
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Old 2012-09-19, 18:45   Link #10573
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
You know, Orange, it's still strange, since Medaka herself said she'd lose to Ajimu, and she's the protagonist.

I guess It was possible she was just bullshiting us. One way or the other, she was giving us false information in the sentence "I'd prostrate before her", If she's still a MC.
Just because Medaka believes that she stands no chance against Ajimu does not mean that she actually wouldn't.
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Old 2012-09-19, 20:03   Link #10574
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Just because Medaka believes that she stands no chance against Ajimu does not mean that she actually wouldn't.
A fair enough statement, but I did say that one way or the other, she was giving us false information.
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Old 2012-09-19, 20:07   Link #10575
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A fair enough statement, but I did say that one way or the other, she was giving us false information.
I think it's more likely that she doesn't know the limits of her ability, The End. More likely, the kind of minuses that she'd have to acquire to stand a prayer of beating Ajimu would be the kind Kumagawa has. It's possible that she is aware enough that copying such skills is a horrible idea.
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Old 2012-09-19, 20:30   Link #10576
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Really, it's unknown at this point. Ajimu said he can easily cancel her The End, so meh.
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Old 2012-09-19, 22:26   Link #10577
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Well remember, Ajimu beating Medaka isn't just about fighting. I think Ajimu's aware she could defeat her, but it wouldn't bring her any satisfaction.

I was wonder....did Devil Style really mean anything? We've heard the characters rationalize it for how Zenkichi managed to win against Medaka, and why Kumagawa didn't see his old foes(which seems like a coincidence in of itself).
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Old 2012-09-19, 23:18   Link #10578
orangejuicetang
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
You know, Orange, it's still strange, since Medaka herself said she'd lose to Ajimu, and she's the protagonist.

I guess It was possible she was just bullshiting us. One way or the other, she was giving us false information in the sentence "I'd prostrate before her", If she's still a MC.
I wonder if that's possibly be because she got 'shocked and awed', so to speak. As in, Ajimu showed off her numerous skills and 'wow'd' Medaka into thinking she'd stand no chance, and she normally wouldn't. But if the two actually got into a fight, Medaka's 'protagonist modifier' would kick in and there would be some kind of coincidence or something along those lines that would allow Medaka to somehow pull out a victory, or something. Hence how 'devil style' is the 'nullification of the protaganist's privilege', or however Ajimu described it. But returning to the Ajimu vs Medaka deviless style fight, it's possible that despite completely outclassing her, due to Medaka's 'protagonist' classification, Medaka will win through some coincidence. However, Medaka doesn't really think of her as a 'protagonist', and thus doesn't really expect/think about those 'coincidences', so she thinks she'll lose. On the other hand, Ajimu knows about those 'protagonist coincidences', so she thinks Medaka will win.

Once again, I'm just randomly fanwanking here, feel free to tell me how wrong I am.
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Old 2012-09-19, 23:38   Link #10579
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
I wonder....did Devil Style really mean anything? We've heard the characters rationalize it for how Zenkichi managed to win against Medaka, and why Kumagawa didn't see his old foes(which seems like a coincidence in of itself).
I liked to think that Devil Style was the perfect microcosm of the new world of Medaka Box, the new kind of protagonist it had, and Zenkichi's new mentality.

Now, though? Yea, seems rather...more than largely forgotten? Maybe Nishio has something in store for it or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange
I wonder if that's possibly be because she got 'shocked and awed', so to speak. As in, Ajimu showed off her numerous skills and 'wow'd' Medaka into thinking she'd stand no chance, and she normally wouldn't. But if the two actually got into a fight, Medaka's 'protagonist modifier' would kick in and there would be some kind of coincidence or something along those lines that would allow Medaka to somehow pull out a victory, or something. Hence how 'devil style' is the 'nullification of the protaganist's privilege', or however Ajimu described it. But returning to the Ajimu vs Medaka deviless style fight, it's possible that despite completely outclassing her, due to Medaka's 'protagonist' classification, Medaka will win through some coincidence. However, Medaka doesn't really think of her as a 'protagonist', and thus doesn't really expect/think about those 'coincidences', so she thinks she'll lose. On the other hand, Ajimu knows about those 'protagonist coincidences', so she thinks Medaka will win.
But, you know what I find even more interesting? Before being "defeated" by Zenkichi, Medaka never once seemed worried about facing Ajimu in combat.

I guess it is purely a personality thing.
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Old 2012-09-20, 02:00   Link #10580
orangejuicetang
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Well, if I remember correctly, Medaka would constantly make snarky comments about how Ajimu was overestimating her and Ajimu could easily overwhelm her with her 600 billion people and however many skills, with Ajimu then replying that Medaka would still win.

But anyway, if we take Ajimu's descriptions of 'protagonists' to be true, then that means the only one who can defeat Iihiko are other protagonists, meaning Medaka herself or possibly Zen, if he still qualifies as an 'artificial protagonist'.

Although thinking about it again from yet another view, I have the feeling Shiranui will play a large role, since for the most part this arc seems to focus on her
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