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Old 2012-09-20, 01:30   Link #81
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Which isn't even that long all things considered, the whole thing about Madara's so called incredible lifetime is completely blown out of proportion for no reason.
It wouldn't have been as bad, to me at least, if Madara hadn't lost what was supposedly the mother of all battles and barely escaped with his life. Add that to the fact he was basically on life support, and I can't help but get the sense he should have died a long time before he did.

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The Ninja village system isn't very old to begin with. Madara is at best two decades older than Oonoki and probably less than that and no one is amazed by Ooniki's age 17 years later.
People were pretty amazed at the possibility Madara could still be a live while Tobi was still playing his "I'm Madara" card, which seems to imply Madara either was thought to have died in battle (likely against Hashirama) or he might have been older than we think.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I'm still confused as to why Madara was holding a scythe in this chapter. Has he used such a weapon in the past?
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
I don't recall, most likely it's there for the Shinigami joke or... It'll be weapon he always had, but was never seen using, and will be explained later or not. Makes a good cane though.
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Madara is shown using a scythe against Hashirama in Tobi's flashback of the VoTE battle. It might have originally been attached to the gunbai war fan by a chain.
A bit late, but what the hell. I just remembered it.

Exhibit A.
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Old 2012-09-20, 02:37   Link #82
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Originally Posted by milan kyuubi View Post
Madara said in this chapter he left his eyes to someone else.
Obito told us that Madara gave them to Nagato.
Madara in previous chapter asked why Nagato didn't resurrect him.
Nagato had no idea he was supposed to revive Madara, since he believed Obito/Tobi is Madara.

What does this tell you?
This tells me that there is still important information missing, but clearly you wont let that stop you from declaring this situation a "plot-hole". There are still logical explanations that would make this work. The person who has Nagato's eyes at this point of the flashback might not even be Nagato (though it probably is); and if it is, we don't know the circumstances of how he gave them to him or what Nagato knows. Did he use some sort of seal magic in the eyes or some other kind of weird mind control technique that could be activated later on? We simply don't know yet.


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As I said before Nagato could have easily ended up dead. Rinnegan can't help you when you are starving to death. And seeing how Kishi wrote Minato's sacrifice. I don't expect more information's. But to simple believe Madara did it just because. Just as Minato did it.
The risks involved here still don't make it a plot-hole. We don't even know if he had someone like a zetsu clone lurking around Nagato as tobi did with Sasuke. Its possible the ninja could have only intervened when absolutely necessary, like on the verge of death(again, as tobi did with Sasuke).

Last edited by Artful Dodger; 2012-09-20 at 02:50.
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Old 2012-09-20, 02:59   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
This tells me that there is still important information missing, but clearly you wont let that stop you from declaring this situation a "plot-hole". There are still logical explanations that would make this work. The person who has Nagato's eyes at this point of the flashback might not even be Nagato (though it probably is); and if it is, we don't know the circumstances of how he gave them to him or what Nagato knows. Did he use some sort of seal magic in the eyes or some other kind of weird mind control technique that could be activated later on? We simply don't know yet.

The risks involved here still don't make it a plot-hole. We don't even know if he had someone like a zetsu clone lurking around Nagato as tobi did with Sasuke. Its possible the ninja could have only intervened when absolutely necessary, like on the verge of death(again, as tobi did with Sasuke).
Lets just agree to disagree. As I don't expect Kishi will give us any additional info beyond this. He already did the same thing with Minato, so it wont be to far fetched for him to do it again.
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Old 2012-09-20, 03:22   Link #84
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Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
i don't understand why is Obito so much messed up over protecting Rin, she is a ninja herself!!, a chunin at that, and we have already seen very powerful ninjas at genin level, Obito is making it sound as if it's his biggest aim in life, "just to be Rin's bodyguard", and he is pulling kakashi into forever just protecting someone nonsense, it makes me even sick
You mean you don't want to protect your friends? What kind of friend are you?
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Old 2012-09-20, 03:25   Link #85
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@Artful Dodger/Milan Kyuubi I also agree to disagree and yes it seems far fetched that Madara put so much risk into his plan whether he did or did not give Nagato his eyes; however Jiraiya also set out on a what he thought was a far-fetch'd (had to spell it that way haha) journey after a giant toad had told him that he had a dream... Jeez the guy in the "world between" could even be Izuna? He also had given his eyes away, guess we'll have to wait for this to plan out. Defs excited.

Also on Page 15 (this single page made the chapter awesome for me) for everyone else the two white bodysuits hanging from the Mazou anyone think that the left one resembled White Zetsu? We could be finding out his origin/creation/birth fairly soon. The one on the right though clearly foreshadowing towards Tobi with the spiral face and just the right arm. Madara mentioned on the page as Obito struggles from the bed that Hashirama's artificial body will be ripped off then it shows the suit then he says he wants him to do things for him. The white bodysuits looked more suited for an adult than child, which in turn could explain Obito's sudden growth towards Tobi vs Minato and his arm "meltingish" after being hit with a rasengan. Any other thoughts people!!? Also the reason people see plotholes is because Kishi hasn't exactly filled them yet, picking and choosing which to do first; which is making the story awesome for me. And whoever said that this is mainly for Japanese 12 year olds you sir/madam can go eat your hat. Backwards.
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Old 2012-09-20, 03:26   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
You mean you don't want to protect your friends? What kind of friend are you?
Forever Alone.
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Old 2012-09-20, 03:39   Link #87
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Except... The manga IS directed at 12-year olds.... This is a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by milan kyuubi View Post
Madara said in this chapter he left his eyes to someone else.
Obito told us that Madara gave them to Nagato.
Madara in previous chapter asked why Nagato didn't resurrect him.
Nagato had no idea he was supposed to revive Madara, since he believed Obito/Tobi is Madara.

What does this tell you? That Madara left his eyes to Nagato, and then expected for him to bring him back. With Nagato not having any previous knowledge of this.

As I said before Nagato could have easily ended up dead. Rinnegan can't help you when you are starving to death. And seeing how Kishi wrote Minato's sacrifice. I don't expect more information's. But to simple believe Madara did it just because. Just as Minato did it.
There is currently no way to know what Nagato did and didn't know. Either way, supposing he didn't know, we know he was loyal to "Madara" before he betrayed him, and if not for his betrayal he probably would have used his Rinne Tensei at the right time if he were told to do so. And this betrayal was something from left field that was totally unexpected. Things like 'hunger' and 'war' are things that can be taken steps against.
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Old 2012-09-20, 03:45   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Except... The manga IS directed at 12-year olds.... This is a fact.
Yes I know, I just think it was more directed towards them when it started but where its developed to since I started reading it 8-9 years ago I can't see a 12 year old starting to watch this without influence from someone who had seen it. Opinion. And how come you never addressed the more important points of the post.

Last edited by SuperRareTreeCat; 2012-09-20 at 04:12.
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Old 2012-09-20, 04:20   Link #89
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Because the other points didn't really need any rebuttal.
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Old 2012-09-20, 05:27   Link #90
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Didn't ask for rebuttals.
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Old 2012-09-20, 06:47   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
You mean you don't want to protect your friends? What kind of friend are you?
i din't say that, protecting your friends is fine , but what i meant was that Obito is so much fixated only on 'protecting Rin', it sound as if Rin is just a medical nurse who tags along with them and is not even a ninja and it sounds as if she is horribly weak, protecting your friends is something you do naturally you don't have to decide or plan on it, but Obito makes it as if that is the only thing in his life to do
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Old 2012-09-20, 08:48   Link #92
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Old 2012-09-20, 09:02   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
We forget this manga is for 12 year old Japanese boys.
and you forget that time is in motion and not at a standstill. when naruto first started it was directed at 12 year olds. and i'm sure plenty of 12 year olds read it now, but what about the '12 year olds' who started reading the manga 10 years ago? let's see, they'd be in their 20's now. the manga has clearly gotten more advanced and more for an older audience as time has passed. it still doesn't alienate young people, but it also takes into consideration the original aging fans of the series.

it's like harry potter. the first 3 or so books were very much for children, but as those children aged, so did the style and mood until the end which was pretty dark and much more for young adults. naruto is following the same pattern

this just sounds to me like some fabricated excuse for you not liking the current events of the story. it has nothing to do with the age-range of the material. it's an action-adventure after all. there are plenty of stories in all mediums made for young-teens through adults that aren't mensa-level writing. i don't even mean to short change naruto here. i find it much smarter than you are giving it credit for
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Old 2012-09-20, 11:09   Link #94
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
and you forget that time is in motion and not at a standstill.
But of course, and Doraemon's target audience are people in their 50s.
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The manga has clearly gotten more advanced and more for an older audience as time has passed.
I didn't notice, would you mind to elaborate on which way Homer Masashi Kishimoto's story has grown more mature and/or advanced over the years?
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Old 2012-09-20, 11:12   Link #95
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Well, it didn't exactly advance by 10 whole years if you ask me. But it did increase a little since the beginning.
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Old 2012-09-20, 11:22   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
I didn't notice, would you mind to elaborate on which way Homer Masashi Kishimoto's story has grown more mature and/or advanced over the years?
hidan, among others but he is the best example, is equivalent to a character from an R rater horror film. the story got much more involved in politics as time progressed. there has been more mystery, intrigue, collusion, character complexity, large scale plans, etc... in recent years. heroic characters have died. strategy and battle plans have gotten more complex. if you don't see it for yourself, then i doubt i can convince you, but the things i listed just now were either on a much smaller scale or not even present when the manga began

also about the homer thing. that was an example that love can be and is a legitimate reason for obito's change of heart (and i doubt that's even the only reason, but if it is, then he has good company) you can insert pretty much any Shakespearean tragedy or even comedy in there too if you want to legitimatize it further. i'm not saying kishi is on par with those writers, i'm only saying that love has been used in literature as a path to insanity, evil, etc... since the oldest classics. also, just think about the iliad and the odyssey for a moment. are those strictly for 12 year olds too? what happens in those stories that is so far advanced from naruto's story? nothing really
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Old 2012-09-20, 11:36   Link #97
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Plus, most love related tropes actually do happen IRL.
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Old 2012-09-20, 12:35   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
There is currently no way to know what Nagato did and didn't know. Either way, supposing he didn't know, we know he was loyal to "Madara" before he betrayed him, and if not for his betrayal he probably would have used his Rinne Tensei at the right time if he were told to do so. And this betrayal was something from left field that was totally unexpected. Things like 'hunger' and 'war' are things that can be taken steps against.
But was Nagato really so loyal to Madara (Tobi)? Tobi in his fight against Konan states that both her and Nagato new of his moon eye plan, and were agreeing with him. But Nagato plans were different, since he wanted the bijus to create massive weapon. Perhaps Kishi was contradicting himself here.
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Last edited by milan kyuubi; 2012-09-20 at 13:10.
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Old 2012-09-20, 12:58   Link #99
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
hidan, among others but he is the best example, is equivalent to a character from an R rater horror film. the story got much more involved in politics as time progressed. there has been more mystery, intrigue, collusion, character complexity, large scale plans, etc... in recent years. heroic characters have died. strategy and battle plans have gotten more complex. if you don't see it for yourself, then i doubt i can convince you, but the things i listed just now were either on a much smaller scale or not even present when the manga began
I think you've confused drama, or worse violence, with maturity. A mature story isn't simply R-rated materials (and I disagree with your notion that anyone in Naruto could be considered "R-Rated"), it is ultimately a story that features characters that experience consequences for their actions and have to be responsible. Naruto, sadly enough, has not once had to be held responsible for his actions (and, to a lesser extent, most other "good" characters have not as well) and any consequences can literally be rewritten. Any potential negative he has ever done has been painstakingly made into a positive through the course of constant retconning, character derailment, or simple plot contrivance. It's great storytelling to have Naruto be able to create a more perfect world with a few words or actions, but it is entirely unrealistic.

That being said, the series literally started with the main character almost getting killed by a deranged traitor, and then led to a fucked up little boy talking about killing a certain person, then a big bad was introduced who went out of his way to explain just which parts of the body he was going to carve up first. And this is not even really mentioning the body changing pedophile, the blood drenched insomniac from Sand or any of the other extremely violent (for a series meant for 12 year old kids) stories and characteristics found throughout Part I. Everything in Part II is a relatively simple escalation from Part I, and none of this reflects on the maturity of the story.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
are those strictly for 12 year olds too? what happens in those stories that is so far advanced from naruto's story? nothing really
You're confusing something. Kishimoto may use heady topics or subject matters, but he writes such topics for a 12 year old audience. That is the difference between how someone like Homer or Shakespeare (or even Stephen King, since he is a more worthwhile comparison) uses certain themes versus how Kishimoto uses the same themes (admittedly, all were written for a specific audience, and all were written for entertainment, but it is easy to see that Homer and Shakespeare's and even King's writing is significantly elevated from Kishimoto's.)

Last edited by james0246; 2012-09-20 at 13:46.
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Old 2012-09-20, 13:30   Link #100
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We still don't know in what state was Madara's body left after his defeat against the 1st hokage. It could be that he was always stuck to that life supporting device, not only when he was already an old man.


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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
A mature story isn't simply R-rated materials
Now that i think of it, it seems that this manga was more mature at the very beginning: that was the last time Kishimoto had the balls to kill off a child, who was named Haku. Not only his death but also his whole life story was more mature than most of the stuff in the manga.
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