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Old 2012-09-20, 15:57   Link #101
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I think you've confused drama, or worse violence, with maturity. A mature story isn't simply R-rated materials (and I disagree with your notion that anyone in Naruto could be considered "R-Rated"),
i knew someone would jump on the hidan example and gloss over all the others like politics and strategy... still, hidan is unquestionably an R rated villain according to mpaa standards. others are there or close as well, but i'm providing the most pertinent example. also i was addressing hunter's question involving maturity when i spoke of hidan. hunter's question of advanced material would be politics, strategy, mystery, etc...

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That being said, the series literally started with the main character almost getting killed by a deranged traitor, and then led to a fucked up little boy talking about killing a certain person, then a big bad was introduced who went out of his way to explain just which parts of the body he was going to carve up first. And this is not even really mentioning the body changing pedophile, the blood drenched insomniac from Sand or any of the other extremely violent (for a series meant for 12 year old kids) stories and characteristics found throughout Part I. Everything in Part II is a relatively simple escalation from Part I, and none of this reflects on the maturity of the story.
you're basically arguing my original point in that the story is not meant for only 12 year olds. it's clearly mature material. i recognize that it's been mature material from the getgo. my second point was that it kept getting more mature. ero-senn1n's point about haku being killed is a good one. but i don't see how it's more mature a sacrifice than jiraiya's or yahiko's or obito's for that matter

edit: took out the homer stuff... i dont think its really relevant to this discussion. i was merely providing an example of love being used in classic literature as a catalyst
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Old 2012-09-20, 17:59   Link #102
james0246
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it's clearly mature material.
Honestly, I think you are confusing a dramatic situations with a mature story. You keep focusing on the shock value/potentially controversial moments, rather than how these moments reflect any sense of maturity in the characters or the audience. Death by itself is not mature. Politics by itself is not mature. Mystery for mystery's sake is not mature. Etc. It's how these moments are used in the series, or the events that surround them that reflect on the character's, story's or audience's maturity.

To give an example, I thought Shikimaru confronting the fact that he failed his sensei was very mature. Sadly, Kishimoto ruined the moment by making Shikimaru an Avenger just like Sasuke (which isn't necessarily a bad story, save for the fact that so much had been made about how bad it was for Sasuke to be an Avenger), even going so far as to try and abandon his village just to get his revenge. It reeked of childishness and not fully reflecting on his actions (as if, somehow, killing the man who killed his sensei would make up for his sensei's death).

Naruto is an immature story (or at least not a mature story), simply because the world the characters live in is childish and simplistic. And, truthfully, it works best this way.
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Old 2012-09-20, 18:08   Link #103
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat View Post
@Artful Dodger/Milan Kyuubi I also agree to disagree and yes it seems far fetched that Madara put so much risk into his plan whether he did or did not give Nagato his eyes; however Jiraiya also set out on a what he thought was a far-fetch'd (had to spell it that way haha) journey after a giant toad had told him that he had a dream... Jeez the guy in the "world between" could even be Izuna? He also had given his eyes away, guess we'll have to wait for this to plan out. Defs excited.

Also on Page 15 (this single page made the chapter awesome for me) for everyone else the two white bodysuits hanging from the Mazou anyone think that the left one resembled White Zetsu? We could be finding out his origin/creation/birth fairly soon. The one on the right though clearly foreshadowing towards Tobi with the spiral face and just the right arm. Madara mentioned on the page as Obito struggles from the bed that Hashirama's artificial body will be ripped off then it shows the suit then he says he wants him to do things for him. The white bodysuits looked more suited for an adult than child, which in turn could explain Obito's sudden growth towards Tobi vs Minato and his arm "meltingish" after being hit with a rasengan. Any other thoughts people!!? Also the reason people see plotholes is because Kishi hasn't exactly filled them yet, picking and choosing which to do first; which is making the story awesome for me. And whoever said that this is mainly for Japanese 12 year olds you sir/madam can go eat your hat. Backwards.
- i guess i would like to see izuna have more of role in the story but thats not likely. his purpose was a power up for madara and also one of his sources for hatred…this guy with obito is the real madara

- this isn't a world in between. in that i don't think madara was being literal. as you have pointed out, he mentions to obito that they are both stuck unable to leave bound by the power in shodais dna. that is what is meant by being the crevasse of the living and dead…at least that my guess.
besides where they are now is the same location tobi brought kabuto to see the zetsus and where yamato currently is…where they are is a physical location

- chap 502, in their confrontation atop hokage mountain, tobi doesn't look all that adult sized to me
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Old 2012-09-20, 18:28   Link #104
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Honestly, I think you are confusing a dramatic situations with a mature story. You keep focusing on the shock value/potentially controversial moments, rather than how these moments reflect any sense of maturity in the characters or the audience. Death by itself is not mature. Politics by itself is not mature. Mystery for mystery's sake is not mature. Etc. It's how these moments are used in the series, or the events that surround them that reflect on the character's, story's or audience's maturity.
i disagree. take the politics at the kage summit for instance. or tobi's discussion with sasuke about joining akatsuki where he flatly asks sasuke's intentions knowing full well that they are opposite of what itachi wanted. those were thought provoking discussions about major players in an upcoming war. not exactly 12 year old material there

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To give an example, I thought Shikimaru confronting the fact that he failed his sensei was very mature. Sadly, Kishimoto ruined the moment by making Shikimaru an Avenger just like Sasuke (which isn't necessarily a bad story, save for the fact that so much had been made about how bad it was for Sasuke to be an Avenger), even going so far as to try and abandon his village just to get his revenge. It reeked of childishness and not fully reflecting on his actions (as if, somehow, killing the man who killed his sensei would make up for his sensei's death).
i partly agree, but hidan and kakuzu made it clear that they were returning to konoha to not only put everyone at risk but to kill shikamaru and his team and steal asuma's corpse. it's not like they killed asuma and then retired to some distant country and shikamaru tracked hidan down and beat him. the best way to defeat someone so powerful is to ambush them which is the proper tactic in this case. going around the village and constructing a poor plan was dumb for sure, but i see no problem with the reflection of his actions. i didnt see it as shikamaru making up for asuma's death. it was shikamaru protecting "the king" (konoha, specifically the young) from a threat like hidan and kakuzu. and as someone with firsthand experience fighting them, he should have been on the team to ambush them.

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Naruto is an immature story (or at least not a mature story), simply because the world the characters live in is childish and simplistic. And, truthfully, it works best this way.
all i can say to this is that you sure talk a lot about something that in your own words is childish and simplistic... to me, any form of literature that raises this much discussion simply is not childish and simplistic
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Old 2012-09-20, 18:56   Link #105
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i disagree. take the politics at the kage summit for instance. or tobi's discussion with sasuke about joining akatsuki where he flatly asks sasuke's intentions knowing full well that they are opposite of what itachi wanted. those were thought provoking discussions about major players in an upcoming war. not exactly 12 year old material there
Frankly, you are vastly underrating children.

Children are not stupid. They understand much of the world around them (especially once they reach 12 or so). So, claiming that the simplistic politics of Naruto is too mature for them, or the vague (if not outright disingenuous as moral platitudes abound and false equivalences are made right and left concerning amazingly complex problems and situations) discussions between antagonists and protagonists is too adult or serious, is simply untrue. And, it is mostly untrue because Kishimoto never makes the complex dilemmas to difficult to solve (he knows he is writing for a 12 year old audience, so he dumb downs, often too much, the story for his preconceived notions of the intelligence of 12 year old kids).

Honestly, your entire argument is based around the initial assumption that Kishimoto wrote Part II for his fans that had grown up with the characters (the 12 year old that are not 25, etc), and while I am sure there is some amount of truth to that statement, it simply does not work as a business model. Kishimoto does not write for a niche audience, he write for a general audience (kids, generally boys, 12-15), consequently it is very unlikely that Kishimoto is writing for an more grown-up audience, even if they started as young fans. (Kishimoto undoubtedly tries to use the Pixar method of storytelling: childish stories mixed with slight adult humour and situations.)


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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
all i can say to this is that you sure talk a lot about something that in your own words is childish and simplistic... to me, any form of literature that raises this much discussion simply is not childish and simplistic
To be fair, the majority of discussion concerning the series is versus discussion, romance discussion, overall critique of the series, entertainment/action, and then finally focusing on the so-called "mysteries" (quite honestly, besides the chapter threads, much of the discussion concerning Naruto has little to actually do with the actual story).
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Old 2012-09-20, 19:01   Link #106
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Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat View Post

Also on Page 15 (this single page made the chapter awesome for me) for everyone else the two white bodysuits hanging from the Mazou anyone think that the left one resembled White Zetsu? We could be finding out his origin/creation/birth fairly soon. The one on the right though clearly foreshadowing towards Tobi with the spiral face and just the right arm. Madara mentioned on the page as Obito struggles from the bed that Hashirama's artificial body will be ripped off then it shows the suit then he says he wants him to do things for him. The white bodysuits looked more suited for an adult than child, which in turn could explain Obito's sudden growth towards Tobi vs Minato and his arm "meltingish" after being hit with a rasengan. Any other thoughts people!!? Also the reason people see plotholes is because Kishi hasn't exactly filled them yet, picking and choosing which to do first; which is making the story awesome for me. And whoever said that this is mainly for Japanese 12 year olds you sir/madam can go eat your hat. Backwards.
I see the Zetsu and Tobi thing with the white 'bodysuits', but my post is mainly regarding the part I put in bold.

During the fight with Minato, Tobi's LEFT arm was the one that came off, but Obito still has his left arm in this flashback, so that still doesn't add up unless he loses his left arm in this flashback.

(or unless I was watching a mirrored anime clip, it's been a while since I read that manga chapter).
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Old 2012-09-20, 19:30   Link #107
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Frankly, you are vastly underrating children.
i feel like you keep putting words in my mouth. i never said kids don't get anything in naruto. i said it's writing has been geared to a more general audience than only 12 years, particularly in the more recent years. that doesn't mean kids don't get it. it means a mature audience would enjoy it. i mean what about marketing? does it make sense to not grow the concepts and themes in the story to more suit your aging audience? no good marketing plan would ever cast aside it's original audience. if the show didn't get bigger in scope then it would just be a bunch of simple missions like the fillers at the end of the first anime show and the original fans would have gotten bored with it by now. I know plenty have dropped naruto over the years as would happen with anything. i'm saying that more would have dropped off if the story didn't gain complexity

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Honestly, your entire argument is based around the initial assumption that Kishimoto wrote Part II for his fans that had grown up with the characters (the 12 year old that are not 25, etc), and while I am sure there is some amount of truth to that statement, it simply does not work as a business model. Kishimoto does not write for a niche audience, he write for a general audience (kids, generally boys, 12-15), consequently it is very unlikely that Kishimoto is writing for an more grown-up audience, even if they started as young fans. (Kishimoto undoubtedly tries to use the Pixar method of storytelling: childish stories mixed with slight adult humour and situations.)
again i never said that kishi is ditching the new 12 year olds. i'm saying he's writing for a broader audience including current 12 year olds and his original fanbase

edit: just to point out that when i said: "not exactly 12 year old material there" i meant that a bunch of old people sitting around a table or long drawn out discussions in general are not 12 year old material from a marketing standpoint. not that smarter 12 year olds dont get it or enjoy it, it's just not typical 12 year old material from an industry standard. it's suited for more of a general audience
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Old 2012-09-20, 19:35   Link #108
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama View Post
I see the Zetsu and Tobi thing with the white 'bodysuits', but my post is mainly regarding the part I put in bold.

During the fight with Minato, Tobi's LEFT arm was the one that came off, but Obito still has his left arm in this flashback, so that still doesn't add up unless he loses his left arm in this flashback.

(or unless I was watching a mirrored anime clip, it's been a while since I read that manga chapter).
the left arm was damaged in the manga chapter you are referencing. in chapter 601 and 602 we see obitos left arm bandaged. the possibility exists that it has been replaced/modified as well
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Old 2012-09-20, 19:52   Link #109
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This seems kind of a moot point to me, I don't understand how it could be bad writing if the writer is or was developing characters and ideas as the story advanced (as in the case with Madara and Danzo). Flashbacks occur in almost every media outlet I can think of; manga, anime, American cartoons and live-action TV, I fail to see how it's bad writing when the flashback itself is revealing critical information about a character or plot element at a crucial time.

For example; in the series Angel and Buffy most of Angels's - dare I say 'all' of his back story was revealed in the form of flashbacks (his meeting with Darla, then Drusilla, then with Spike and finally his arrival in present Sunnydale), which if it weren't for the informative flash back all we would have been given was a last minute very random and very large "info dump" with the intention of making us feel sympathy for the ineffectual villain.

Personally I'd rather see a flash back and be able to physically see what happened to make these characters turn out the way they did rather than get a lengthy last-minute info dump and be expected to sympathize with a murderous madman when all I got out of it was, "his life sucks, he had a mean dad, and his girlfriend broke up with him just before she died...please feel bad for him" - I'd much rather see how it got to that point.

What?

Naruto flashbacks are large, last-minute info dumps. Instead of complex characters with carefully revealed (or concealed) motivations, we're given one-dimensional villains and then suddenly all is revealed in a last-minute flashback and they die. Don't forget to add in a dash of retcon!

If you have to reveal "critical" information at a "crucial" time through flashback, you've already failed as a writer. You've killed your pacing and the thread of the story to siderail and explain something you failed to naturally reveal in the course of your storytelling. I assume Kishimoto cannot do this, in a compelling way without sounding stilted, so he falls back on flashbacks.

Sometimes flashbacks can be appropriate - certainly not at a "crucial" time - but they should be natural. Naruto is notorious for a casual conversation - or sometimes not even that - in the middle of battle leading into a huge multi-chapter Life Story, everyone else presumably standing around and waiting for the guy to get out of his lost-in-thought mode.

Off the top of my head, the only flashback in Naruto that seemed at all appropriate was Jiraiya's before he died.

I don't watch Buffy, which is your only solid example, but I can't think of many examples besides typical shounen fodder which engage in anything like Naruto's flashback abuse. Keep in mind this is obviously excluding stories where the flashback is a structural element; for example, in the last episode of the seventh season of House, the episode begins with a crime scene or whatever, and the rest of the episode is a flashback leading up to it. Or A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, where the entire book is actually the flashback. (Of course, just because a lot of writers do something doesn't mean it's good anyhow.)

Your last line is exactly my point - if you need a flashback to sympathize with a character that the author wants you to sympathize with, then it's bad writing and the flashback is a crutch for it.

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this is not a 'rule'. flashbacks can be amazing, well timed and good writing. you are merely stating an opinion, which is valid, but still just an opinion. i, for one, like this and most other flashbacks in naruto and have no problem with the pacing. we just saw a ton of crazy fights and we need some context for what is about to happen next. did you really think we would find out tobi's identity and then not have a flashback to explain it?

tl;dr Yeah, well that's just like, your opinion, man, and I only took away half your post.

Yes, I figured we'd have flashbacks. I am sure we will have many more flashbacks. That doesn't make them any less crutches for bad writing and a huge annoyance.

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Or water guy conveniently finding a scroll that could change the war and let Sasuke and them rule the world. Which just so happened to be left behind by Kabuto. Which was conveniently in the only base Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum found. Which was conveniently in the only wall Juugo happened to break after the both of them did their lame Laurel and Hardy routine.
TBH, that whole chapter made me wonder if Kishimoto's assistants are writing now, because that was spectacularly terrible and lazy.

This chapter need not have ever happened. There was not even any real reason to keep Tobi's identity hidden from the viewer except as a cheap trick to keep readers in. Imagine how much more interesting the story would be if we had learned these tidbits about Obito all along - but Kakashi and the others didn't know, and we were reading all the prior chapters with an appreciation for Tobi's deceptiveness and trickery - maybe even sympathizing and rooting for him - knowing what was keeping him going the whole time. Instead what we got was a random guy doing random villain things for 300 chapters and now it's "oh by the way I'm Obito and I'm real mad Rin died."
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Old 2012-09-20, 19:57   Link #110
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I dont see your problem but ive always been excited for manga chapters and never been let down. You just have your expectations way to high, and as for the reveal of Tobi; probably didn't follow your "theory" now did it? And how were the Kabuto flashbacks pointless? We got to see one of the powerful antagonists back stories as to how he became who he was. We're also gonna see Obito's backstory with Madara and probably Madara's (what we haven't seen/heard), something called character development. How could that bore you? If Naruto is disappointing you so much then stop complaining about it and just don't read it or watch it. Simple.
**** yes i am upset that it turned out to be Obito. My theory was that Tobi is anybody but Obito because the whole Obito theory started years ago based off their names being similar and having a sharingan. People stuck to that theory just because of that. No part about Madara magically rescuing Obito makes any sense at all. You're gonna tell me that Madara's secret hide out where he's been staying for decades just happened to be under that battle field? Obito was the worst possible revelation especially since that **** Kishi made us wait 3 years to find out. Built it up so much and now the next 2 months he's gonna be explaining it, when i'd rather see what is going on in the fight. And the way Kishi started the flashback was so stupid. Kakashi asks Obito something, he doesn't respond but the reader starts getting the flashbacks. They should have at least started fighting then at some point Obito explains how he was able to survive.

Yes the Kabuto flashback's were completely unnecessary, we didn't even know what he planned to achieve after the war was over. He wanted Sasuke so he can put Orochimaru in his body, then what?
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Old 2012-09-20, 19:59   Link #111
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the left arm was damaged in the manga chapter you are referencing. in chapter 601 and 602 we see obitos left arm bandaged. the possibility exists that it has been replaced/modified as well
Yeah, and the chapter I'm referencing takes place after Chapter 601 and 601 chronologically.

I suppose Obito's arm could have been treated under the bandages he currently has now, but I find it weird that his arm would be treated/upgraded and recovered enough for him to pull his whole weight with it across the ground, while the rest of his body is clearly still screwed over (torn lip, other arm, etc and needs staples just to hold him together.
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Old 2012-09-20, 20:14   Link #112
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Itachi-san314 I'm not going to adress all your argument because I agree with everything James said and I'd only repeat what he told you -and probably less gracefully which is why I'll also ignore the Homer/Shasperian part.

But I'd go a little further in the specifics you've given since you complained that he focused on Hidan rather than the rest of your points (although I'll also adress him).
Hidan is a textbook cartoonish (and underdeveloped) vilain, there is nothing particulary mature or complex about him, he is an evil man who live to kill and kill to live. I don't see why you think him more mature than.... Well pretty much any and all other vilains in the story to be honest. He was violent -which as James already noted is vastly different than mature- but not much more violent than the others. In fact I find the violence represented by Gatou during the first arc (from the bullying of the small bridge village to the torture, crucifixion and decapitation of Kaiza) to be more violent and dramatic than anything Hidan did and Haku ultimately pointless sacrifice to save his doomed "father" figure was more mature in comparison to most of the story which is by and large Naruto multiplying the cakes to eat them all.

I also don't see how part 2 is deeper politically-wise, the high of the story -such as it was- in this category was the Chuunin exam which opened the Naruto-universe and explained why those child-soldiers had to fight in public in order to appeal to the highest bidders and maintain the status quo between the Great Villages. In comparison the political side of the story in part 2 can be summarized by Gaara healing the wounds of untold generations of warfare and uniting tens of thousands of bitter veterans thanks to a 2 minutes cheesy speech.
Note that I'm not saying the politic in part 1 was mature because it wasn't treated as such, so even more mature than part 1? It's not even a stretch at this point.
You also listed more mystery, collusion, character complexity, large scale plans and complex strategy. None of those have anything to do with mature work in any ways and I'd argue that a couple of them are nonexistant (complex characters and strategies? When? Who?). As far as intrigue is concerned I think James already covered that and as I say I can't agree more.

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all i can say to this is that you sure talk a lot about something that in your own words is childish and simplistic... to me, any form of literature that raises this much discussion simply is not childish and simplistic
So are you really telling me that the not inconsiderable debates I have had about which was stronger between a Chidori and a Rasengan or the little piece of Hell represented by the cumulated body of work of Pairing-threads are a testament of maturity based on their sheer, crushing lenght and longevity? Who would have thought.
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Old 2012-09-20, 20:20   Link #113
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**** yes i am upset that it turned out to be Obito. My theory was that Tobi is anybody but Obito because the whole Obito theory started years ago based off their names being similar and having a sharingan. People stuck to that theory just because of that. No part about Madara magically rescuing Obito makes any sense at all. You're gonna tell me that Madara's secret hide out where he's been staying for decades just happened to be under that battle field? Obito was the worst possible revelation especially since that **** Kishi made us wait 3 years to find out. Built it up so much and now the next 2 months he's gonna be explaining it, when i'd rather see what is going on in the fight. And the way Kishi started the flashback was so stupid. Kakashi asks Obito something, he doesn't respond but the reader starts getting the flashbacks. They should have at least started fighting then at some point Obito explains how he was able to survive.

Yes the Kabuto flashback's were completely unnecessary, we didn't even know what he planned to achieve after the war was over. He wanted Sasuke so he can put Orochimaru in his body, then what?
kabuto has stated at least once but I'm thinking twice he wants the power/knowledge of the sage of 6. much like orochi who wants knowledge of all jutsu. its the same goal really. but based on what we've learned, kabuto and oro figured that the sharingan could evolve to the rinnegan (edo/real madara proves that). we know kabuto/oro have and can manipulate shodais cells (yamato, danzo)...so the plan? obtain an uchiha body, add hash's dna, obtain rinnegan, become all rikudo like...


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Yeah, and the chapter I'm referencing takes place after Chapter 601 and 601 chronologically.

I suppose Obito's arm could have been treated under the bandages he currently has now, but I find it weird that his arm would be treated/upgraded and recovered enough for him to pull his whole weight with it across the ground, while the rest of his body is clearly still screwed over (torn lip, other arm, etc and needs staples just to hold him together.
he actually seems to be pulling himself with his chin...lol
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Old 2012-09-20, 20:59   Link #114
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But I'd go a little further in the specifics you've given since you complained that he focused on Hidan rather than the rest of your points (although I'll also adress him).
Hidan is a textbook cartoonish (and underdeveloped) vilain, there is nothing particulary mature or complex about him, he is an evil man who live to kill and kill to live. I don't see why you think him more mature than.... Well pretty much any and all other vilains in the story to be honest. He was violent -which as James already noted is vastly different than mature- but not much more violent than the others.
there are two types of maturity at play here. my argument has been marketing basically. i never said hidan was an intelligent character himself or by design, i said he was a character for a mature audience. to me at least, he pushes the boundaries for the 12 year old market. the movies scream or friday the 13th are meant for mature audiences. not 12 year olds.

the other aspect of maturity is complexity which obviously is not hidan, but some of the other examples i mentioned. i also said a while back in this thread that naruto isn't exactly mensa-material either. i do think it is more than just 12 year old material though as evidenced by our debates about plenty of things (other than pairings which i have never even taken part in)

i feel like unless we are talking about a philip k dick novel or mark twain or something of that caliber, then you and james will reduce anything to childish, immature and simple. there doesn't seem to be any middleground here which is where i think naruto belongs (from 12 to young adult) but i've said all i have to say on it so thanks for the discussion
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Old 2012-09-20, 21:53   Link #115
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What?

Naruto flashbacks are large, last-minute info dumps. Instead of complex characters with carefully revealed (or concealed) motivations, we're given one-dimensional villains and then suddenly all is revealed in a last-minute flashback and they die. Don't forget to add in a dash of retcon!

If you have to reveal "critical" information at a "crucial" time through flashback, you've already failed as a writer. You've killed your pacing and the thread of the story to siderail and explain something you failed to naturally reveal in the course of your storytelling. I assume Kishimoto cannot do this, in a compelling way without sounding stilted, so he falls back on flashbacks.

Sometimes flashbacks can be appropriate - certainly not at a "crucial" time - but they should be natural. Naruto is notorious for a casual conversation - or sometimes not even that - in the middle of battle leading into a huge multi-chapter Life Story, everyone else presumably standing around and waiting for the guy to get out of his lost-in-thought mode.

Off the top of my head, the only flashback in Naruto that seemed at all appropriate was Jiraiya's before he died.

I don't watch Buffy, which is your only solid example, but I can't think of many examples besides typical shounen fodder which engage in anything like Naruto's flashback abuse. Keep in mind this is obviously excluding stories where the flashback is a structural element; for example, in the last episode of the seventh season of House, the episode begins with a crime scene or whatever, and the rest of the episode is a flashback leading up to it. Or A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, where the entire book is actually the flashback. (Of course, just because a lot of writers do something doesn't mean it's good anyhow.)

Your last line is exactly my point - if you need a flashback to sympathize with a character that the author wants you to sympathize with, then it's bad writing and the flashback is a crutch for it.


"
I must apologize for my blatant impudence I displayed earlier as I didn't realize you had a Phd in creative writing and were an established critic of fine literature -- I think some people expect authors to have everything about their story all fleshed out from the get-go supposedly like Eiichiro Oda. It just sounds to me like a pitiful excuse to complain about the manga, like I said before (exclude Buffy and Angel if you wish ) many media outlets/entertainment venues refer to flashbacks as a means of narrative or story-telling.

I don't understand why it must be such a huge fail to include a flashback as I said it would either be that or an info dump and I disagree with your assessment that a flashback in Naruto (or Shounen manga in general) is an "info dump". "Last minute" inclusions (flash backs & plot revelations, etc) to the story are done for numerous reasons, but the most likely reason is because the story did not call for it yet OR because the author did not develop those character/plot points yet -- would it have made anymore sense for this Madara and Obito flashback to have occurred during the Pain Invasion arc? Or how about in the middle of the Hidan and Kakuzu arc? Or how about even further back in the serial during the entry exams to the Chunin Exam arc -- even before Obito was even introduced.

Fact is writers don't always stick with their original plan despite having an "idea" of what they want to have happen in the end, and many things happen that bring about sudden changes to their original ideas (i.e. editors interference, the publishing company, a character's popularity, a different -- perhaps better idea altogether). As I see it, the way you so eloquently made it clear that Kishimioto has failed as a writer this far in Naruto because of these flashbacks, makes me think that the standard belief is that instead of a flashback or random last minute "info dump" the author should not reveal anything new about said character or any new character history that was not shown on panel because it would be in "bad taste" and if someone like say Kakashi for example just so happened to know off the bat Tobi was Obito without the big reveal, managed to guess that he met up with Madara without the flashbacks, and somehow miraculously surmised the details of their deal then it would just be considered 'deus ex machina' or some kind of unnatural out of character omnipotency or "plotkai" and wouldn't even make sense as to how he managed to accurately guess all of those things without the aid of a flashback/reveal of some kind.

But I'm not out to change your opinion, we all have opinions as the old saying goes and I still think it is an entertaining story so far.
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Old 2012-09-20, 23:10   Link #116
Ulquiorra
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
there are two types of maturity at play here. my argument has been marketing basically. i never said hidan was an intelligent character himself or by design, i said he was a character for a mature audience. to me at least, he pushes the boundaries for the 12 year old market. the movies scream or friday the 13th are meant for mature audiences. not 12 year olds.
But 12 year olds watch them all the same.

Hidan was a boogeyman like Jason Vorhees or Michael Myers and not suppose to be complex. If Kishimoto failed with Hidan, it was in making him more silly than threatening; probably thinking this would add a dimension to his character. But it ended up taking a lot of the menace out of the character.

I do agree with your point about Sasuke vs. Shikamaru as avengers. Kishimoto did not contradict himself here since he made sure to write that Hidan and Kakuzu were coming back to kill them and retrieve Naruto. There was no avoiding this situation. And if Shikamaru didn't do anything, someone else would have, since ninja are disposable tools. Much different situation than Sasuke. For all of Kishimoto's inconsistencies, I cannot criticize him here.

The failure of that arc was Kishimoto couldn't commit to his story. There was no reason shoehorn Kakashi into the fight. Or give Kakuzu mysterious powers to prolong the fight and set him up as a pin cushion for Naruto's latest upgrade. If he wanted to make Shikamaru's story about growing up and avenging his sensei, a very popular trope in Asian cinema, he should have went all in.
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Old 2012-09-20, 23:18   Link #117
b1gdawg
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Kishi i really ****ing hate you. You build up Tobi's identity just to reveal it RIGHT BEFORE the biggest Climax in the story. First of all, I'm sure most Naruto fan's are pissed off at the identity of Tobi, and now, I would much rather find out the outcome to this fight between Obito vs Kakashi and Gai and Madara vs Naruto and Bee. Now I'm gonna have to wait probably 2 month just to see the fight because your dumb*** has to explain how Tobi is Obito. Would have been much better if this flashback happened towards a turning/ending point of the fight. Plus, Kakashi and Gai are clueless to what we are reading right now. Even after we know Obito's story, Kakashi and Gai are gonna have many chapters asking how he's still alive, which will just prolong the fight. Very disappointed in how this Manga is turning out, I've been getting disappointed with every chapter for the last 2 months.
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Old 2012-09-20, 23:55   Link #118
SuperRareTreeCat
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
- i guess i would like to see izuna have more of role in the story but thats not likely. his purpose was a power up for madara and also one of his sources for hatred…this guy with obito is the real madara

- this isn't a world in between. in that i don't think madara was being literal. as you have pointed out, he mentions to obito that they are both stuck unable to leave bound by the power in shodais dna. that is what is meant by being the crevasse of the living and dead…at least that my guess.
besides where they are now is the same location tobi brought kabuto to see the zetsus and where yamato currently is…where they are is a physical location

- chap 502, in their confrontation atop hokage mountain, tobi doesn't look all that adult sized to me
-True it could be the same hideout and he probably wasn't being literal, was just my thought and opinion. Good point though.
-With that chapter(502) I agree that on page 9 he does look non-adult size but he is crouching whilst continuing to phase upwards out of the mountain. On Page 14 when they're charging at each other they both look very similar height wise. Also on page 11 Tobi's emphasize on Madara not quite being dead seems to have hit the spot now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama View Post
I see the Zetsu and Tobi thing with the white 'bodysuits', but my post is mainly regarding the part I put in bold.

During the fight with Minato, Tobi's LEFT arm was the one that came off, but Obito still has his left arm in this flashback, so that still doesn't add up unless he loses his left arm in this flashback.

(or unless I was watching a mirrored anime clip, it's been a while since I read that manga chapter).
-I had thought I was also reading a flipped manga at first; read some from other sites seemed to be legit. Guess we'll have to wait and see but this bothered me slightly as well could've been a drawing error also were as the point of a different arm was still there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b1gdawg View Post
**** yes i am upset that it turned out to be Obito. My theory was that Tobi is anybody but Obito because the whole Obito theory started years ago based off their names being similar and having a sharingan. People stuck to that theory just because of that. No part about Madara magically rescuing Obito makes any sense at all. You're gonna tell me that Madara's secret hide out where he's been staying for decades just happened to be under that battle field? Obito was the worst possible revelation especially since that **** Kishi made us wait 3 years to find out. Built it up so much and now the next 2 months he's gonna be explaining it, when i'd rather see what is going on in the fight. And the way Kishi started the flashback was so stupid. Kakashi asks Obito something, he doesn't respond but the reader starts getting the flashbacks. They should have at least started fighting then at some point Obito explains how he was able to survive.

Yes the Kabuto flashback's were completely unnecessary, we didn't even know what he planned to achieve after the war was over. He wanted Sasuke so he can put Orochimaru in his body, then what?
I never once said that this secret hideout was under this battle field. I highly doubt that it would be. Back to my other point if you are indeed not satisfied then stop reading and complaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b1gdawg View Post
Kishi i really ****ing hate you. You build up Tobi's identity just to reveal it RIGHT BEFORE the biggest Climax in the story. First of all, I'm sure most Naruto fan's are pissed off at the identity of Tobi, and now, I would much rather find out the outcome to this fight between Obito vs Kakashi and Gai and Madara vs Naruto and Bee. Now I'm gonna have to wait probably 2 month just to see the fight because your dumb*** has to explain how Tobi is Obito. Would have been much better if this flashback happened towards a turning/ending point of the fight. Plus, Kakashi and Gai are clueless to what we are reading right now. Even after we know Obito's story, Kakashi and Gai are gonna have many chapters asking how he's still alive, which will just prolong the fight. Very disappointed in how this Manga is turning out, I've been getting disappointed with every chapter for the last 2 months.
Sir could you kindly calm down. Thanks.
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Old 2012-09-21, 00:25   Link #119
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by b1gdawg View Post
I would much rather find out the outcome to this fight between Obito vs Kakashi and Gai and Madara vs Naruto and Bee. Now I'm gonna have to wait probably 2 month just to see the fight because your dumb*** has to explain how Tobi is Obito. Would have been much better if this flashback happened towards a turning/ending point of the fight.
but that is exactly what happened or have you already forgotten many chapters involving tobi fighting naruto, bee, kakashi and gai? tobi's mask breaking was a turning point in the fight because it happened in direct relation to the good guys figuring out tobi's technique and how to counter it. now madara's arrival into this ongoing fight as a reinforcement is another turning point. this already long fight has changed up quite a bit and now we need context on the bad guys in order to maximize the rest of the fight's impact
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Old 2012-09-21, 11:15   Link #120
Dengar
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And it's not like the characters are standing there for 3 hours while the flashback placed. It's for the convenience of the reader, not the characters.
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