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Old 2012-09-21, 19:54   Link #281
KiraYamatoFan
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Well, even without conscription, the JGSDF still has the right to make some catchy advertising for careers in the forces. Speaking of samurai spirit, I guess one director might find some idea to link the samurai with the modern day soldier just like the chivalry part that was emphasized in one of the Marines' ads in the past.
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Old 2012-09-21, 20:14   Link #282
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
With how Japan is going, I actually do support conscription for Japan.
If I'm not wrong, isn't there a constitutional barrier in its way ?
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Old 2012-09-21, 20:29   Link #283
Yu Ominae
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Not really.

The WWII stigma thing may make most people resist this.

It's not against the constitution though.
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Old 2012-09-21, 20:35   Link #284
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Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
If I'm not wrong, isn't there a constitutional barrier in its way ?
The Article 9 does stop Japan from having armed forces, so yes.
And if Japan does gain ability to conscripts it would mean Japan is more of a sovereign nation.
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Old 2012-09-21, 20:37   Link #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yu Ominae View Post
It's not against the constitution though.
Um, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution
ARTICLE 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes. (2) To accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.
Source: wiki. Emphasis mine.

Conscription is most certainly going to be considered war potential. The Japanese in forging the JSDF and arming it to the current extent has already pushed the limits of the Article to a near-breaking point, and there are those within Japan who already consider the current JSDF outright unconstitutional.
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Old 2012-09-21, 21:01   Link #286
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I remember the Communists saying that they want to phase out the SDF if they get in power and if conditions in EA allow for that to happen.

Meanwhile, the IBT reports of concerns that Chinese tourists may decline due to the riots.
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Old 2012-09-21, 21:10   Link #287
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I meant the "Left," then. The US Democratic Party is not "Left," and the Liberals under Noda don't look very Left either. Ishihawa and company seem pretty far to the right, certainly in world terms. I see them as similar to people like LePen in France, though without the emphasis on immigration. As here in the US, Japan has a center/center-right party in power, a further right party, the LDP, and then far-right voices like Ishihawa. Japan had an active Communist party in the 1960s; do they have any successors today?
When I say left, I usually imagine the liberals.
Not the far-left, i.e. communists.

Those can rot where they stand anyways.
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Old 2012-09-21, 21:28   Link #288
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Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
As for conscription in Japan, I'm in favor of seeing the famed samurai ferocity which the Americans faced and feared in Iwo Jima which had indirectly pushed for the use of atomics emerged once more. But it might be hard-pressed given how soft the current generation is.
I'd say the Battle of Okinawa did far more to convince the US to use nuclear weapons. Iwo Jima, while certainly one of the more famous battle, was not the deadliest either by ratio(Peleliu) or total numbers (Okinawa).

Also, I'm not so certain a return of WW2-era "samurai ferocity" would really be a good thing. War is an ugly business, no matter how it may be romanticized after the fact. Just look at Okinawa. Those "samurais" used civilians as shields, pillaged and raped the local population, ordered civilians to commit mass suicide in the face of advancing Allied forces, not exactly what I'd call positive traits, and is probably best if it's kept in the history books.

Just like the Allied forces weren't knights in shiny armors, the IJA were hardly the honor-bound samurais in folklore.
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Old 2012-09-21, 21:33   Link #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I'd say the Battle of Okinawa did far more to convince the US to use nuclear weapons. Iwo Jima, while certainly one of the more famous battle, was not the deadliest either by ratio(Peleliu) or total numbers (Okinawa).
Those soldiers were basically fighting for their very existence... That's why they have to fight (add the brain washing from their commanders).
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Old 2012-09-21, 21:46   Link #290
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Those soldiers were basically fighting for their very existence... That's why they have to fight (add the brain washing from their commanders).
You mean Iwo Jima? It's hard to say they were fighting for their existence... there was really no doubt from the very beginning that the IJA would lose Iwo Jima, and both sides knew it. The Japanese could not reinforce their position nor retreat, and they were so outnumbered there was no plausible way for them to win.

Being the first of Japan's home territory to be invaded however, as far as the IJA was concerned they were honor-bound to defend it to the last man, and they almost did. Their other goal was to try to inflict so much casualty that the Allies would decide against invading the Japanese mainlands. Ironically they did achieve this goal in the end with their efforts culminating in Okinawa, though I'd say it was not in a manner they expected.
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Old 2012-09-21, 22:10   Link #291
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Samurai were officially no more since 1877.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushido
More recently, it has been argued that modern bushidō discourse originated in the 1880s as a response to foreign stimuli, such as the English concept of "gentlemanship," by Japanese with considerable exposure to Western culture. Nitobe Inazo's bushidō interpretations followed a similar trajectory, although he was following earlier trends. This relatively pacifistic bushidō was then hijacked and adapted by militarists and the government from the early 1900s onward as nationalism increased around the time of the Russo-Japanese War.
Source: wiki. Emphasis by me.

I wouldn't want to see Japan use WWII as an example about the code of conduct if something was to be used in training new recruits arriving from partial conscription or from voluntary enlistment (if done thanks to ads as it's done in Canada, the US and the UK). Going to the 1880's modern bushidō should be enough as much as the German Bundeswehr retained their finest traditions that were not stained by the Nazis.
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Old 2012-09-21, 22:24   Link #292
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I'd say the Battle of Okinawa did far more to convince the US to use nuclear weapons. Iwo Jima, while certainly one of the more famous battle, was not the deadliest either by ratio(Peleliu) or total numbers (Okinawa).

Also, I'm not so certain a return of WW2-era "samurai ferocity" would really be a good thing. War is an ugly business, no matter how it may be romanticized after the fact. Just look at Okinawa. Those "samurais" used civilians as shields, pillaged and raped the local population, ordered civilians to commit mass suicide in the face of advancing Allied forces, not exactly what I'd call positive traits, and is probably best if it's kept in the history books.

Just like the Allied forces weren't knights in shiny armors, the IJA were hardly the honor-bound samurais in folklore.
I assume you had never watched Letters From Iwo Jima or read the book it was based on.

General Kuribayashi was a whole different breed from his contemporaries and so were the men under him. AFAIK, General Kuribayashi was ordered to stand and die at Iwo Jima, fighting to the last men.

But Kuribayashi also know Japan was fighting a losing war from the start based on his time in America. The men under him was civillians conscripted quite late in life, most were already fathers.

But a directed order could not be disobeyed, so he devianted a bit from the usual tactics which calls the soldiers to go out with a bang. What did he do, he told the men to evacuate the civillians at Iwo Jima first, had them digged out a vast tunnel network underground and tell them to never give up, don't do suicide attacks and keep fighting till the last breath using hit-and-run attacks.

That's the "Samurai Ferocity" I referring to here. Don't waste your life and defend your homeland tii you drop dead. WWII GIs at Iwo Jima had a immerse respect for surviving Iwo Jima vets.
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Old 2012-09-21, 22:39   Link #293
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Well that and from my understanding, Japanese propaganda basically made it looks like death was preferable to capture by the Americans...particularly the Marines. Demons that brutalize, rape, and eat you alive I believe was some of the propaganda being spread in the months leading up to Iwo Jima and Okinawa. It was those battles that lead the Allies to believe that if they invaded Japan there would be millions dead, with more of them being Japanese that either fought to the death, or comitted suicide to evade capture by the invading demons.

Thus the Atomics were used. Something worse than demons...the actual fires of hell itself. Be it that Japan was going to surrender already or not doesn't change what was going though the heads of the American military commanders after seeing what happened on Okinawa.
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Old 2012-09-21, 22:46   Link #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
I think Sumeragi wants to emphasize drilling a sense of civic responsibility into the general populace rather than building a new army to invade China.

Comrades in arms and all that. And who knows, maybe swinging around a big phallic firearms for a year or two will empower The People (rich old fucked up powerful men? Shoot them down like the pigs they are!), and a popular militia can be *cough* corrupted into a proletarian revolution...

Kind of like how you Singaporeans get to build camaraderie by sharing pointless misery with people you'd otherwise just walk past on the streets.
I don't mind serving my time if my superiors were half has incompetent, gutless and submissive as they are. A wayward soldier from another unit challenges him to a no-holds barred fight; pick it up, don't just send that kid to the detention barracks. And pick up the damn MP5 and your abseiling gear and lead the assault instead of asking the squad to "make do" just because someone in the squad broke his leg - it is not like you have anything to do back at the command center because YOUR superior is the one making the decision, he still needs your feedback anyway right? There is only 7 men left, there is a reason for even-numbered teams.

Oh yes, and that bureaucracy. Three lives again this year, and it is only sensible to note that these heatstrokes only start to occur in the recent years when we changed out a new load-bearing vest that covers everything and traps all the heat.

And that crap gun. Oh yes that crap gun that never works after a humid waterborne raid, funny selector positions, overweight, impossible to 99% clean and explodes after wading through mud. And if your enemy is just round the corner you are dead because there is no bayonet mount.

Given how the Japanese does things similarly, the conscription is more likely than not going to turn out the way of SAF's. The Samurai Ferocity will never be seen again - just a bunch of people who drop their guns and run, or simply resigned to the fate that their operations will never turn out fine.
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Old 2012-09-21, 22:46   Link #295
Yu Ominae
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Japan protests Chinese fishing boat inspections in Senkaku.

Just came in.
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Old 2012-09-21, 23:10   Link #296
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
I assume you had never watched Letters From Iwo Jima or read the book it was based on.
Actually I've done both, good stuff. Still, can't really use those as historical reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
That's the "Samurai Ferocity" I referring to here. Don't waste your life and defend your homeland tii you drop dead. WWII GIs at Iwo Jima had a immerse respect for surviving Iwo Jima vets.
Not sure what you're trying to say here, did you mean to say not instead of dont?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Well that and from my understanding, Japanese propaganda basically made it looks like death was preferable to capture by the Americans...particularly the Marines. Demons that brutalize, rape, and eat you alive I believe was some of the propaganda being spread in the months leading up to Iwo Jima and Okinawa. It was those battles that lead the Allies to believe that if they invaded Japan there would be millions dead, with more of them being Japanese that either fought to the death, or comitted suicide to evade capture by the invading demons.

Thus the Atomics were used. Something worse than demons...the actual fires of hell itself. Be it that Japan was going to surrender already or not doesn't change what was going though the heads of the American military commanders after seeing what happened on Okinawa.
Whether the nuclear bombs should've been used is a whole other can of worm entirely. However, if Operation Downfall did go ahead, there is little doubt there WOULD be millions dead, the substantial majority being Japanese civilians.

In Okinawa alone, the total number of casualties numbered over 300k, more than the number killed in the atomic strikes. Adding the fact that there would be increased air campaign leading up to the actual invasion (firebombings in Tokyo alone killed over 100,000), the large number of military and civilian casualties in the ensuing battles, massive destruction of infrastructure and a blockade around the island, you're looking at millions dead by starvation alone.

And this isn't even taking into account of the fighting that continued on in other areas such as the Philippines and China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
I wouldn't want to see Japan use WWII as an example about the code of conduct if something was to be used in training new recruits arriving from partial conscription or from voluntary enlistment (if done thanks to ads as it's done in Canada, the US and the UK). Going to the 1880's modern bushidō should be enough as much as the German Bundeswehr retained their finest traditions that were not stained by the Nazis.
Certainly nothing wrong with that, most established military services in the world usually have their own code, a warrior's ethos so to speak, though it's something that works far better with a volunteer force rather than a conscripted one. That being said, I would imagine the JSDF already have something similar, even if it's not a straight adaptation of bushido.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I don't mind serving my time if my superiors were half has incompetent, gutless and submissive as they are. A wayward soldier from another unit challenges him to a no-holds barred fight; pick it up, don't just send that kid to the detention barracks. And pick up the damn MP5 and your abseiling gear and lead the assault instead of asking the squad to "make do" just because someone in the squad broke his leg - it is not like you have anything to do back at the command center because YOUR superior is the one making the decision, he still needs your feedback anyway right? There is only 7 men left, there is a reason for even-numbered teams.
Heh, good officers are a rarity, can't say I've seen all that many of them in my years. That being said, if someone did sustain major injuries during a routine training exercise, the officer usually do have stuff they'd have to do (usually a bunch of paperworks), at least for us anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Oh yes, and that bureaucracy. Three lives again this year, and it is only sensible to note that these heatstrokes only start to occur in the recent years when we changed out a new load-bearing vest that covers everything and traps all the heat.
Yikes, though if you ask me that's more on the NCOs and the troops themselves. If you know your working condition can lead to heatstroke, you need to be pounding those waters and know when to give the troops time to rest

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
And that crap gun. Oh yes that crap gun that never works after a humid waterborne raid, funny selector positions, overweight, impossible to 99% clean and explodes after wading through mud. And if your enemy is just round the corner you are dead because there is no bayonet mount.
Hah, that's the same everywhere man, there are ALWAYS more carbon deposits to be found, no matter how much time you spend cleaning them damn rifles

Last edited by kyp275; 2012-09-21 at 23:25.
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Old 2012-09-21, 23:29   Link #297
MakubeX2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Actually I've done both, good stuff. Still, can't really use those as historical reference.
I'd say, Independent accounts from survivors of both sides matched up to what was written.

Quote:
Not sure what you're trying to say here, did you mean to say not instead of dont?
It means don't be a hero or matyr, be a survivor until you are KIA by the enemy.

Quote:
Whether the nuclear bombs should've been used is a whole other can of worm entirely. However, if Operation Downfall did go ahead, there is little doubt there WOULD be millions dead, the substantial majority being Japanese civilians.
The American was much more worried about the numbers of servicemen KIA if they opt for a land invasion than some Japanese civillians, if you ask me. Still it's better to get a war over and done with earlier rather than later.
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Old 2012-09-22, 01:42   Link #298
kaizerknight01
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This getting of topic anyway .....guess the lesson learned in saipan and importantly in Iwo Jima is

“When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press
a desperate foe too hard.”

WW II is a very dark chapter in human history .....the researched and reference material that i read its depressing
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Old 2012-09-22, 02:11   Link #299
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
I hate the idea of conscription, especially the Korean one, and this is one of the thing I envy about Japan.
Given that Japan doesn't have a land border with a hostile nation, I would think the Swiss system would be adequate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
As for conscription in Japan, I'm in favor of seeing the famed samurai ferocity
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Well, even without conscription, the JGSDF still has the right to make some catchy advertising for careers in the forces. Speaking of samurai spirit,
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Going to the 1880's modern bushidō should be enough as much as the German Bundeswehr retained their finest traditions that were not stained by the Nazis.
Without going into a long rant, I'll just say this: There is no such thing as a true bushido or samurai spirit, and certainly no application of such false "ideology" in a modern military (and this is coming from a conservative Imperial supporter who wants nuclear arms and normalization of the Japanese state.)




In connection to the issue at hand: What irks me the most of this issue is how the Japanese ultranationalists are not doing much against the current show of utter disrespect by PRC while ranting about Koreans.
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Old 2012-09-22, 02:54   Link #300
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Given that Japan doesn't have a land border with a hostile nation, I would think the Swiss system would be adequate.

Without going into a long rant, I'll just say this: There is no such thing as a true bushido or samurai spirit, and certainly no application of such false "ideology" in a modern military (and this is coming from a conservative Imperial supporter who wants nuclear arms and normalization of the Japanese state.)
As mentioned earlier, the Swiss system would be the adequate way to do it.

Still, if the JSDF want to have more people serving under the flag either as temporary conscripts or career people, I guess it would be logical their PR would try using something catchy that would also respond the needs of the new generation. I only brought the example of Bushido because that COULD BE something catchy (that's only my humble opinion). For example in Canada, it's about using someone's skills that are attained in college into a career (like someone who graduated in music could become sonar operator on a frigate). And in the US, the emphasis is on defending a way of life (you should watch examples of ads for the Marines on youtube; they have the budget to make them catchy). That's it for the off-topic part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
In connection to the issue at hand: What irks me the most of this issue is how the Japanese ultranationalists are not doing much against the current show of utter disrespect by PRC while ranting about Koreans.
Perhaps Prime Minister Noda has a longer reach than what everyone expected when it comes to holding the horses. By the way, we have news and it was about damn time some people would spend the night in the brig after the riots: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120922b3.html
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