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Old 2012-03-01, 23:19   Link #2641
bhl88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
The TSAB is famous for it's crippling reliance on magic but even then they have a small handfull of resources that can be used in situations like the one you're proposing.

They have trained non-magical soldiers and even some of them have managed to be important figures inside the organization(like General Regius Gaiz in StrikerS, it's implied that he used to be a fierce combatant in the past and the man have zero magical powers).

They have people with special license to carry physical weapons like Runessa Magnus from Sound Stage SSX and her "Silver Dagger" who doubles as a magical device and a conventional gun.

Belkan Knights are, aside of magical fighters, proficent warriors trained in various means of combat, their Armed Devices can double as physical weapons in case Magic isn't viable(The Huckebein only surpassed this challenge by being able to destroy the structure of Armed Devices). Armed Devices also proved to be powerfull weapons against Magic-resillent Gadget Drones and Combat Cyborgs.

The Combat Cyborgs themselves are the ultimate fusion between bionics and living beings able to fight with limited yet very powerfull abilities in complete non-magical enviroments.

One of the reasons people think TSAB behave like a bunch of morons in the FORCE manga is because they're struggling against the Huckebein family despite having lots of alternative methods more effective than sending Nanoha and friends to face the guys immune to magic xDU.


From the Q & A thread:


But if the spell that replace normal clothes with Barrier Jackets gets dispelled, that doesnt mean their normal clothes will be automatically restored to their previous place in time-space? (aka. on their wearer xD)?

On the other hand it's funny to think a distant dimension only filled with normal clothes floating everywhere really exist xD!
Yep pretty much XD. I wonder where they store it though... back at the base in TSAB? In Emiya Shirou's place where Reinforce is being pushed back by the yandere Avalon-chan XD
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Old 2012-03-02, 04:40   Link #2642
Keroko
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Wait, Regius has been implied to be a fierce combatant? Where?

And I wouldn't say the TSAB has 'lots' of alternative methods. Really the only effective ones they have right now are the numbers, which are a limited supply.

Ironically, they are researching more alternative methods that would work for mass-supplying the TSAB as a whole rather than just rely on a handful of leftovers from a criminal investigation. Much hated though they are by many readers, the strike weapons in Force are the better long-term mass-supply solution.
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Old 2012-03-02, 04:52   Link #2643
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Wait, Regius has been implied to be a fierce combatant? Where?
Despite being an a-hole, Regiuz Gais is a recognized general with lots of influence and the loyalty of lots of people. You can't achieve that just by doing cool speeches and sign documents xDU. Or at least i like to thnk things don't work like that on the TSAB xDU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And I wouldn't say the TSAB has 'lots' of alternative methods. Really the only effective ones they have right now are the numbers, which are a limited supply.
Alternative =/= effective xDU The succesfulness of said alternative methods are questionable against the Huckebein but are still more viable than what the TSAB is did during the first part of FORCE. And such methods are centainly very usefull against any non-Eclipse threat armed with AMF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Ironically, they are researching more alternative methods that would work for mass-supplying the TSAB as a whole rather than just rely on a handful of leftovers from a criminal investigation. Much hated though they are by many readers, the strike weapons in Force are the better long-term mass-supply solution.
The problem is that they're getting their butts kicked in the short-term xDU. they're playing a really dangerous game here sending their corps armed with unreliable experimental equipement instead of going for more reliable measures like mass-weapon armed special agents, conventional armed Knights, Combat Cyborgs and the such. So far they have been very lucky as Section Six barely survived their first encounter with the Huckebein despite the flaws on the AEC-Equipements emerging right during battle.

I guess the TSAB must feel very pressed to find new ways to fight future crime to be willing to take such dangerous bets with the lives of their personel.
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Old 2012-03-02, 06:29   Link #2644
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I just found this translation of a part of the first seasons site.
http://www.nanoha.com/archive/prologue/background1.html

Original text:
魔法
この世界の魔法は、大別して「変化」「移動」「幻惑」の3つに分かれる。
変化は、物質の性質や形を変化させ、移動は、物体や、物体を構成する分子を動かすことで物理的な効果を引き 起こし幻惑は、人の心に作用する。
「魔法使い」(魔法少女)たちは、この三つの魔法を組み合わせ、さまざまな調整をした魔法を「 プログラミン グ」することで魔法を作る。


Translate:
Magic
The magic of this world, roughly divided into "Change", "Move", "Daze" three parts.
Change is changing the properties of the material and shape, Move objects, and Daze causing physical effects by moving the molecules that make up the object, acting in accordance with the human mind.
"A mage"(magical girl) make a magic by "programming" the magic combination of the magic of these three, the various adjustments.

Hmm interesting.
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Old 2012-03-02, 06:50   Link #2645
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Despite being an a-hole, Regiuz Gais is a recognized general with lots of influence and the loyalty of lots of people. You can't achieve that just by doing cool speeches and sign documents xDU. Or at least i like to thnk things don't work like that on the TSAB xDU
It's called being a leader. To manage forces, direct them where to go, to tell them what to do. You don't need magical power to be a good leader. Yeah, magical power gets you an edge in promotions (for whatever reason) but it's not a requirement to be powerful to have a high rank. That Regius climbed the ladder even without magic is certainly badass, but badass in a different way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Alternative =/= effective xDU The succesfulness of said alternative methods are questionable against the Huckebein but are still more viable than what the TSAB is did during the first part of FORCE. And such methods are centainly very usefull against any non-Eclipse threat armed with AMF.
Even effective ones, the bureau lacks. As you said, they work well against non-eclipse, but against an eclipse, any AMF countermeasures we've seen are useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
The problem is that they're getting their butts kicked in the short-term xDU. they're playing a really dangerous game here sending their corps armed with unreliable experimental equipement instead of going for more reliable measures like mass-weapon armed special agents, conventional armed Knights, Combat Cyborgs and the such. So far they have been very lucky as Section Six barely survived their first encounter with the Huckebein despite the flaws on the AEC-Equipements emerging right during battle.

I guess the TSAB must feel very pressed to find new ways to fight future crime to be willing to take such dangerous bets with the lives of their personel.
Yeah, it's bit of a leap in logic that they didn't go for full mass-weapons, but as was mentioned before, one of the main goals of the TSAB is to erase mass-based weaponry. In order to not look like total hypocrites and undermine their own base of power, they'd have to find some line in between.
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Old 2012-03-02, 06:57   Link #2646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green-link94 View Post
I just found this translation of a part of the first seasons site.
http://www.nanoha.com/archive/prologue/background1.html

Original text:
魔法
この世界の魔法は、大別して「変化」「移動」「幻惑」の3つに分かれる。
変化は、物質の性質や形を変化させ、移動は、物体や、物体を構成する分子を動かすことで物理的な効果を引き 起こし幻惑は、人の心に作用する。
「魔法使い」(魔法少女)たちは、この三つの魔法を組み合わせ、さまざまな調整をした魔法を「 プログラミン グ」することで魔法を作る。


Translate:
Magic
The magic of this world, roughly divided into "Change", "Move", "Daze" three parts.
Change is changing the properties of the material and shape, Move objects, and Daze causing physical effects by moving the molecules that make up the object, acting in accordance with the human mind.
"A mage"(magical girl) make a magic by "programming" the magic combination of the magic of these three, the various adjustments.

Hmm interesting.
For all these years, we've never even known what the most basic aspects of magic theory was. Now we know
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Old 2012-03-02, 07:57   Link #2647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
...
Ironically, they are researching more alternative methods that would work for mass-supplying the TSAB as a whole rather than just rely on a handful of leftovers from a criminal investigation. Much hated though they are by many readers, the strike weapons in Force are the better long-term mass-supply solution.
To me it was handled clumsily, they are making weapon that convert magic into kinetic energy, sure that sound solide, but you are limited by the output of the handler, so why dont you rig it with a cardtrige system so that all you troopers can use it ?

At the same time i am still wondering what kind of energy source TSAB ship are using, if it's some kind of magical reactor why not link your weapon to them and not rely on your mages for ship to ship combat.
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Old 2012-03-02, 12:21   Link #2648
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yeah, it's bit of a leap in logic that they didn't go for full mass-weapons, but as was mentioned before, one of the main goals of the TSAB is to erase mass-based weaponry. In order to not look like total hypocrites and undermine their own base of power, they'd have to find some line in between.
The thing is that the TSAB is sending mages to die on the battlefield armed with nothing else but experimental equipement, when they already have special agents with hybrid devices like "Silver Dagger" that can double as mass-weapons and a small squad of Combat Cyborgs that are clearly part of Section Six but haven't done anything significant yet despite having a huge edge over the Aces/Forwards/Wolkenritter against the Huckebein in battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRS View Post
At the same time i am still wondering what kind of energy source TSAB ship are using, if it's some kind of magical reactor why not link your weapon to them and not rely on your mages for ship to ship combat.
A really good question.

Again, from the Q & A thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Subspace, the same type of subspace where Verossa stored his delicious cake. Since Verossa doesn't use a device, no devices are necessary for this.
So, there's a dimension where there are normal clothes floating everywher AND cake xD?

It'll be amusing if Nanoha finds her re-casted normal clothes soiled with cake xD
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Last edited by Akiyoshi; 2012-03-02 at 12:40.
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Old 2012-09-20, 21:21   Link #2649
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Zafira's "Stance of Iron Wall" technique, and the "Raging Steel Fang" (normal and Assault versions) techniques it seems to enable...

Just what sort of spell is it?

Einhart has a similar spell in her "Stance of Spin / Spinning Break" technique. When it was first introduced in the manga, Megane Alpine clearly laid out that Einhart's technique caught and returned the shots to the sender intact, rather than simply reflecting the shots, or absorbing and re-using the energy for one's own form of attack.

This suggests that both of those methods are possible alternatives.

Zafira clearly doesn't reflect attacks, since he always using the same bombardment-type beam attack, no matter what sort of projectile was thrown against his Iron Wall. Sometimes he executes a one-two "punch" combo of beams (the "Assault" variation), but I don't know when or why.

Could it be that he is absorbing the energy of the attacks and using them to fuel a bombardment spell?

But if he has a bombardment or shooting magic, why ONLY use it with Iron Wall? He surely has enough energy without always needing to rely on such a trick; Steel Yoke doesn't seem like it could be cheap.

It could be that the bombardment is entirely reliant upon energy gained from an attack, rather than generated by his Linker Core. That is, the bombardment is wholy a part of Stance of Iron Wall's theorized function, and he doesn't actually have the talent (or inclination) to learn regular bombardment attacks apart from such a trick.


Also, what sort of magic would Iron Wall be? A field-type defense, in the same class as Iron Fang Mountain and Panzergeist?

Barriers deflect attacks off-target, and shields rebound force back whence it came... Field-type defenses are less clear in their effects, except that they seem to affect the body more-or-less internally rather than create external constructs.
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Old 2012-09-21, 19:09   Link #2650
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I just want the TSAB to even acknowledge the idea of defensive equipment that's not medieval shields. It's an elephant in the room that it hasn't even been brought up once. If a shield generator wouldn't work, okay, but tell me why.
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Old 2012-09-21, 19:38   Link #2651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
I just want the TSAB to even acknowledge the idea of defensive equipment that's not medieval shields. It's an elephant in the room that it hasn't even been brought up once. If a shield generator wouldn't work, okay, but tell me why.
I presume you're referring to the Fortress shields? It's important to note that they were designed to be physical, since magical shields wouldn't work too good against the Hucks.

And I presume their spaceships have shields, since they kinda mention that in S1. But those could be magically generated shields.

As far as a more scientifically generated shield, like perhaps Star Trek? I dunno. I kinda think, with the focus on magic instead of more sciency tech, it might not have been something they really developed. In real life terms, shields still remain safely in the science fiction realm, despite the fact that stuff like cold plasma could theoretically dampen energy weapon attacks.

Do the cyborgs generate their own sciency shields? Or were those magic? I can remember at least Cinque putting up a shield. I'm still not entirely clear on the IS and cyborg sciency stuff.
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Old 2012-09-21, 19:49   Link #2652
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I did mean scientifically, yeah. Like taking how the weapons work, and inverting it.

And wasn't that from Cinque's coat? I think it worked for defense.
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Old 2012-09-21, 20:30   Link #2653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
I did mean scientifically, yeah. Like taking how the weapons work, and inverting it.

And wasn't that from Cinque's coat? I think it worked for defense.
Whether it was from Cinque's coat or not, she did have a yellow barrier that protected her... at least until Subaru used Vibration Shatter.

And scientifically speaking, it's not exactly a matter of "inverting weapons fire" to create an every shield. That's almost like inverting the anti-matter flow and reversing the polarity of the phaser array; technobabble. Granted, they could use technobabble to come up with one, but it's almost refreshing that they haven't.

And difference materials and fields have different properties, that protect against some things, but not others. For instance, a magnetic field can deflect solar radiation (hence why we on Earth aren't char-broiled). But you can still pass physical objects through it. Cold Plasma, as I said, can theoretically be used to dampen energy weapon attacks, but again, physical weapons pass through unharmed.

Offense, throughout history, has always been stronger than defense. If anything, those would be your reasons why they haven't. Although, granted, it would be nice to hear specifically about their problems in that area. The way the Hucks cut through normal magical shields, and the increasing proliferation of AMF weapons, would seem to indicate that a high priority be placed in that development area.
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Old 2012-09-21, 21:56   Link #2654
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Well, inverse in concept, probably not literally.

And yeah, defense is pretty important against these guys, especially when a good portion of the stuff you're making requires the person using it to get right in their faces.
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Old 2012-09-22, 02:32   Link #2655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Offense, throughout history, has always been stronger than defense. If anything, those would be your reasons why they haven't. Although, granted, it would be nice to hear specifically about their problems in that area. The way the Hucks cut through normal magical shields, and the increasing proliferation of AMF weapons, would seem to indicate that a high priority be placed in that development area.
What does that statement even mean? Yeah, no one has ever been totally invincible, but there have been plenty of defensive technologies that represented massive advantages to their users.
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Old 2012-09-22, 02:40   Link #2656
Akiyoshi
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It's still a bit jarring, tough, that years of technological research keeps focusing on mere shields instead of more ffective defensive means.

Guess it have to do with what Kaijo mentioned about specific defenses. The description of the Fortress unit on the NEXT designs was one of a technology marvel able to tank everything ...in practice, such claims were quickly proved wrong ...repeatedly xDU Even with replacement shields and months to develope upgrades and improvements the equipement keeps being destroyed. Signum's gladiator shield was a semi-decent improvement by the fact it was actually able to deflect strikes from Cypha's blades at normal strenght ...but once Cypha decided to stop joking around she destroyed the shield with her bare fingers.

Why shields? why not better enhaced armored gear? Subaru's Sword Breaker is a good example of what i'm referring, sleek design which allows good mobility and is still the most effective AEC-unit to date. The TSAB is naive in trying to keep pushing mages into a battlefield not suitable for them ....EC drivers should be fought by expert pilots on suits of powered armor or something. If they'll insist to risk mage lives unecessarily at least they should give them something better to wear than an outdated barrier jacket/knight clothing.
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Old 2012-09-22, 04:37   Link #2657
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
I just want the TSAB to even acknowledge the idea of defensive equipment that's not medieval shields. It's an elephant in the room that it hasn't even been brought up once. If a shield generator wouldn't work, okay, but tell me why.
Flat shields, frontal shields omni directional shields, this show has energy shields up the wahoo, it's just that, like everything in the show, they're powered by magic.

StrikerS is the first show to introduce non-magical stuff, and no surprise Cinque still generates a directional shield. Force also had Signum carry an arm-mounted shield generator.
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Old 2012-09-22, 04:47   Link #2658
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Anyone have any thoughts on my question regarding Stance of Iron Wall?
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Old 2012-09-22, 05:54   Link #2659
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I assume you're talking about the PSP games, which I haven't played, so many of the things are hard for me (and I assume many others) to talk about.

However, it sounds to me like you're mixing up game mechanics with the series. Which is always a risky thing. For example, in the game you have to charge up to release big attacks, which is not needed in the series.
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Old 2012-09-22, 06:44   Link #2660
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The Fortress shields have force-field generators. It's stated in the description and clearly shown in several frames in Force when Nanoha is fighting Thoma.

Also, Otto and Sette can generate force fields without equipment. Otto can encase entire skyscrapers.
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