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Old 2012-09-21, 11:47   Link #121
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by Mateus View Post
I don't understand why it must be such a huge fail to include a flashback as I said it would either be that or an info dump and I disagree with your assessment that a flashback in Naruto (or Shounen manga in general) is an "info dump". "Last minute" inclusions (flash backs & plot revelations, etc) to the story are done for numerous reasons, but the most likely reason is because the story did not call for it yet OR because the author did not develop those character/plot points yet -- would it have made anymore sense for this Madara and Obito flashback to have occurred during the Pain Invasion arc? Or how about in the middle of the Hidan and Kakuzu arc? Or how about even further back in the serial during the entry exams to the Chunin Exam arc -- even before Obito was even introduced.
flashbacks are not bad in general. in fact, they are good tools for fleshing out stories and plots. but when abused to a point where you need a flashback every time you need to explain a crucial part of the story then that is not good writing at all. of course, this does not mean that the writer retconned anything or suddenly came up with a new idea and decided to include it at the last minute. it simply means that the writer didn't know how else to tell that part of story, or at least that's how i see it. i kinda agree with shining celebi, flashbacks (especially ones that tell sob stories explaining why the characters did what they did) disrupt the pace. unless the said flashback reveals something that is vital to the plot itself then it's useless. one good example is the kabuto flashback. kabuto's story could have been revealed hundreds of chapters before that, why reveal it at the heat of an ongoing battle? it disrupted the whole fight. sure, we learned about kabuto's past, but was it essential to the plot? no, it wasn't. in fact, nobody really cared at that point since everyone just wanted to see the fights. i had wanted to learn about kabuto's past but the flashback was so ill-timed that it became insignificant. not to mention that kabuto's story was incredibly boring! so he was mind-fucked by danzou and brainwashed by orochimaru, big deal! we've read that story before. nagato did it first.

in fairness to kishi, he did write some pretty good flashbacks but i think he wrote one too many for my taste. i'm not saying he's a bad writer, i don't think he is. but i don't think he's a good writer either. there are so many better writers out there. you'd encounter quite a few of them in the seinen genre. but for a shonen manga-ka, kishi is okay i suppose. he's certainly better than let's say, kubo?
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Last edited by ronin myael; 2012-09-21 at 12:14.
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Old 2012-09-22, 09:55   Link #122
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Hidan was a boogeyman like Jason Vorhees or Michael Myers and not suppose to be complex. If Kishimoto failed with Hidan, it was in making him more silly than threatening; probably thinking this would add a dimension to his character. But it ended up taking a lot of the menace out of the character.
I imagine Hidan's silliness was probably intentional. I agree with Hunter and James that Hidan's acts aren't all that graphic -- but out of all the Naruto villains Hidan was definitely one of the most disturbing concepts. He's an insane masochist who belongs to a cult that teaches its clergy to revel in slaughter and torture. Really, that's the type of thing you'd expect in Berserk or Hellsing. To offset the perverse and occult nature of his powers, I think Hidan was treated less seriously and made less threatening than most of the other villains. Maybe the black humor was overboard at times, but if Hidan were treated completely seriously, I don't think he'd really fit into Naruto.

Nagato is probably the most well-developed villain so far, though his personality was bland. Oro takes the prize in that category. Madara and Obito's backstories are too tangled and I'm really hoping they get through the flashbacks soon. I'm guessing we'll see Obito get his completed Zetsu-clone body next chapter and then see him learn about Rin's death (and I wouldn't be surprised if Madara had a hand in that).

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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
i kinda agree with shining celebi, flashbacks (especially ones that tell sob stories explaining why the characters did what they did) disrupt the pace. unless the said flashback reveals something that is vital to the plot itself then it's useless. one good example is the kabuto flashback. kabuto's story could have been revealed hundreds of chapters before that, why reveal it at the heat of an ongoing battle? it disrupted the whole fight. sure, we learned about kabuto's past, but was it essential to the plot?
Yeah, Kabuto's story could've been left untold. The only thing it really provided was a motive for his acts, that being that he felt he never had an identity so he decided to create his own from stealing the unique abilties of others.

However, one thing to remember is that the story is mostly told from the perspective of the heroes. Usually villains are only featured when encountering the good guys. 9/10 times this will during be some sort of battle, so it's really to be expected that this is often the time the mangaka will take time to give background about them.

Sure, there are some non-action "breather" moments that focus on the villains like in Part I where we saw Kabuto and Oro alone in their hideout discussing events that foreshadowed the debut of Itachi and the rest of Akatsuki. But overall, flashbacks are easier and more entertaining than pure exposition, even if they do disrupt the fights.
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Old 2012-09-22, 11:35   Link #123
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Move too slow, the pacing sucks. Move too fast, it becomes rushed. I've already accepted the fact that people can never be satisfied by a story.
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Old 2012-09-22, 20:27   Link #124
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This may have nothing to do with this chapter, but if Naruto is still going after this arc, who agrees he needs to get a different damn outfit.
Sasuke gets to change his practically every arc since he was introduced.
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Old 2012-09-22, 22:36   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Amata Sora View Post
This may have nothing to do with this chapter, but if Naruto is still going after this arc, who agrees he needs to get a different damn outfit.
Sasuke gets to change his practically every arc since he was introduced.
Hokage cloak fo show!
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Old 2012-09-22, 23:36   Link #126
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Originally Posted by Amata Sora View Post
This may have nothing to do with this chapter, but if Naruto is still going after this arc, who agrees he needs to get a different damn outfit.
Sasuke gets to change his practically every arc since he was introduced.
With Tsunade practically in the throes of death, Konoha's going to need a new Hokage after this arc. As much as Kakashi has the experience for the part, Naruto is now the obvious choice, because the only Konoha ninja even remotely on his power level is Sasuke, once Obitroll/Trollbi is dead. The only way I see Naruto not becoming Hokage after this arc is if by some miracle, Tsunade survives, or he turns the job down.
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Old 2012-09-23, 02:28   Link #127
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Yeah. There's no question Naruto will be qualified for the position. I mean its a given that he'll become the most powerful shinobi in the leaf village by far. In fact the only reason why Kakashi could still get an honorable mention is because he has all the other qualities we've come to expect from Hokage outside of strength. In other words, his personality, leadership skills, intelligence, reputation, and political connections still made him a rather ideal candidate in comparison to Naruto. However, if Naruto can somehow succeed in doing what no other before him could by bringing peace to the entire shinobi world, that will no longer be the case by a long shot.
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Old 2012-09-23, 03:57   Link #128
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Move too slow, the pacing sucks. Move too fast, it becomes rushed. I've already accepted the fact that people can never be satisfied by a story.
Agreed 100%.

Too many wanna-be literature connoisseurs. Oh a flash back is a clear sign of amateur writing. Oh it's clearly a plot hole because of this, plot hole because of that. Flawed character this.

The discussions on this forum have become less about the development and characters and more about how Kishimoto writes the dialogue and whether or not the plot twists are good enough to live up to Inception or Memento.

I have an announcement to make guys... This is a Shonen series. Let's go analyze how complex and deeply written Phineas and Ferb is.
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Old 2012-09-23, 04:55   Link #129
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Originally Posted by ranchan13 View Post
With Tsunade practically in the throes of death, Konoha's going to need a new Hokage after this arc. As much as Kakashi has the experience for the part, Naruto is now the obvious choice, because the only Konoha ninja even remotely on his power level is Sasuke, once Obitroll/Trollbi is dead. The only way I see Naruto not becoming Hokage after this arc is if by some miracle, Tsunade survives, or he turns the job down.
This fight between Naruto and Madara will probably have a very large audience, the whole allied army is converging on their position, and thanks to Tsunade the other 4 kages will also go there. So for Naruto this can become a place where he becomes legendary, with the whole ninja world as witnesses, best hokage exam there can be.

What i find a cheap trick is to kill off Tsunade in this way just to make room for Naruto. She doesn't even need to die for Naruto to become hokage, the 3rd hokage didn't die either, he just found someone who's better for the position.

Naruto would probably be the dumbest kage ever I mean the guy was examining animal penises just a few days ago, and in a few days from now he might be the hokage

I would prefer that Naruto turn down the job, but there's like 0.000000001% chance that it happens. One of the main reasons why the author might want Naruto to become hokage is to have a strong analogy between the Naruto vs Sasuke final fight and the 1st hokage vs Madara fight. And of course where the 1st hokage failed Naruto would succeed.
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Old 2012-09-23, 07:25   Link #130
gohanhd
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Originally Posted by ranchan13 View Post
With Tsunade practically in the throes of death, Konoha's going to need a new Hokage after this arc. As much as Kakashi has the experience for the part, Naruto is now the obvious choice, because the only Konoha ninja even remotely on his power level is Sasuke, once Obitroll/Trollbi is dead. The only way I see Naruto not becoming Hokage after this arc is if by some miracle, Tsunade survives, or he turns the job down.
Nope he wont die, most likely Naruto will convert Obito to a good guy and he will become Hokage with open arms from everyone.
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Old 2012-09-23, 08:01   Link #131
ronin myael
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However, one thing to remember is that the story is mostly told from the perspective of the heroes. Usually villains are only featured when encountering the good guys. 9/10 times this will during be some sort of battle, so it's really to be expected that this is often the time the mangaka will take time to give background about them.

Sure, there are some non-action "breather" moments that focus on the villains like in Part I where we saw Kabuto and Oro alone in their hideout discussing events that foreshadowed the debut of Itachi and the rest of Akatsuki. But overall, flashbacks are easier and more entertaining than pure exposition, even if they do disrupt the fights.
i'd rather have the story arc start slow and then pick up pace than have the buildup cut because of a flashback that has very little to do with the main plot. i also prefer some foreshadowing and just have the story unfold than have flashbacks tell key parts of the story, but that's just a matter of preference.

i have nothing against flashbacks in general though. in fact, i enjoyed that storytelling scene between tobi and sasuke where the former tells about "his" life as madara and the truth about the uchiha clan. i thought kishi did that well. besides, that sort of story needs to be told through that manner. i actually prefer having characters literally tell their stories than just have random flashbacks while the characters are in the middle of a fight. i can understand other people's complaints about flashbacks, naruto has far too many of them for my liking. some are even unnecessary.
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Last edited by ronin myael; 2012-09-23 at 08:20.
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Old 2012-09-23, 09:28   Link #132
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Originally Posted by ranchan13 View Post
As much as Kakashi has the experience for the part, Naruto is now the obvious choice, because the only Konoha ninja even remotely on his power level is Sasuke, once Obitroll/Trollbi is dead. The only way I see Naruto not becoming Hokage after this arc is if by some miracle, Tsunade survives, or he turns the job down.
but naruto was the strongest ninja in the village back when they selected the 6th. he had sage mode and beat pain single handedly. still the village opted for kakashi and danzo over him. i dont really see his intelligence changed that much since then. i'm not saying he won't get to be hokage after this arc is over, i'm just saying that nothing's really changed since the last selection except naruto got even more powerful. although with kakashi and hopefully tsunade as advisers, he'd do fine (as long as he listened which isn't his strong suit ... but for naruto things have a way of diplomatically working out even if he bungles it)
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Old 2012-09-23, 09:42   Link #133
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Naruto already got too powerful, now he needs to become wise and have more life experience as a young man to succeed in being Hokage in future.

I think there's no need for any more power ups in Naruto anymore. I just can't image this. We already have:
1) Genius potential - Sasuke
2) Tailed beast - Naruto
3) Years of training - Both
4) Mang. Sharingan - Sasuke
5) Sage Mode - Naruto
6) Eyes transplantation - Sasuke
7) Friendship with 9tails for mass chakra - Naruto

What next - blood transfusion to obtain clan abilities? Though we kinda have it but it involves DNA, not blood.
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Old 2012-09-23, 10:17   Link #134
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What next - blood transfusion to obtain clan abilities? Though we kinda have it but it involves DNA, not blood.
Honestly, with his implied connection to the sage of the six paths, who knows what other last minute power ups that may lead to before this series is over.
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Old 2012-09-23, 13:54   Link #135
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personally I assume that obito is beyond saving. Madara is pretty much the dark lord of the sith and he corrupted obito so much that his only way of redemption is to just forgive kakashi for letting rin die.

sasuke is the character that kimish wants us to remember and watch become redeemed as he joins forces to stop madara.
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Old 2012-09-23, 15:34   Link #136
Aqua Knight
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Sasuke can be the major plot driver now for Kishi. I mean he has several paths of plot direction:
1) Join Naruto versus Madara - so Madara is the last boss
2) Continue with hatred theme, so we get Naruto vs Sasuke finale
3) Don't forget about Orochimaru reborn,but he's less likely to become main villain as he's weak right now

My bet is on (2) as there was too much power ups for Naruto and Sasuke and if they don't fight it could be kinda anti-climatic.

But fighting on God levels - would that be even interesting, so maybe there won't be another friends battle.

And who else can be counted as a top class villain in Naruto besides Kabuto, Oro, Tobi and Madara?
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Old 2012-09-23, 16:03   Link #137
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Agreed 100%.

Too many wanna-be literature connoisseurs. Oh a flash back is a clear sign of amateur writing. Oh it's clearly a plot hole because of this, plot hole because of that. Flawed character this.

The discussions on this forum have become less about the development and characters and more about how Kishimoto writes the dialogue and whether or not the plot twists are good enough to live up to Inception or Memento.

I have an announcement to make guys... This is a Shonen series. Let's go analyze how complex and deeply written Phineas and Ferb is.
hilarious...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
This fight between Naruto and Madara will probably have a very large audience, the whole allied army is converging on their position, and thanks to Tsunade the other 4 kages will also go there. So for Naruto this can become a place where he becomes legendary, with the whole ninja world as witnesses, best hokage exam there can be.

What i find a cheap trick is to kill off Tsunade in this way just to make room for Naruto. She doesn't even need to die for Naruto to become hokage, the 3rd hokage didn't die either, he just found someone who's better for the position.
agreed...especially about tsunade not having to die. it just looks like while she could theoretically heal herself first, she didn't want to risk any of the kages dying in the meantime, so she is gonna heal them first. then again, naruto went ape shit on pain when he thought kakashi was dead, so only 4 kages showing up to the battlefield will turn him up again...so yeah i guess tsunade could die here

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personally I assume that obito is beyond saving. Madara is pretty much the dark lord of the sith and he corrupted obito so much that his only way of redemption is to just forgive kakashi for letting rin die.

sasuke is the character that kimish wants us to remember and watch become redeemed as he joins forces to stop madara.
personally since tobi met kabuto i felt like there have been about four instances in which i thought, obito is gonna turn on madara. i agree about sasuke tho...
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Old 2012-09-23, 17:56   Link #138
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sasuke is the character that kimish wants us to remember and watch become redeemed as he joins forces to stop madara.
I would rather see Sasuke end up as the last "big bad", with both Naruto and Sasuke as sages of the six paths.
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Old 2012-09-23, 18:06   Link #139
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agreed...especially about tsunade not having to die. it just looks like while she could theoretically heal herself first, she didn't want to risk any of the kages dying in the meantime, so she is gonna heal them first. then again, naruto went ape shit on pain when he thought kakashi was dead, so only 4 kages showing up to the battlefield will turn him up again...so yeah i guess tsunade could die here
Well maybe we are not really right about Tsunade being able to survive this, actually when i think of it that would be a plot hole
First they had to fight Madara and he made sure they'll all die. It's logical for Madara to deal differently with Tsunade: during the battle he learned that she can heal even a mortal wound. So Madara then hit 4 kages with normal mortal wounds but he had to damage Tsunade much more seriously to make sure she can't regenerate. But he didn't expect her to be able to summon a slug that would help her survive. However we know from her fight against orochi and kabuto that her genesis rebirth jutsu consumes all the chakra on her forehead. Which means that he has a choice: regenerate her own body and let the other 4 kages die or regenerate the other 4 kages and die. Mortal wounds cannot be healed by normal medical jutsu, so even if some medical ninja were there they could not save Gaara and the others. So i think this time Tsunade's decision is obvious, it's a hokage's job to sacrifice himself for the village or in this case for the alliance. 4 lives in exchange for 1 seems a good deal for the alliance, and half of them are younger than Tsunade. Despite i don't like the idea of Tsunade having to die i must admit it's the logical thing to do. Kishimoto doesn't kill off characters for nothing, so her heroic death will most likely have a great impact.
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Old 2012-09-23, 21:10   Link #140
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Is Sasuke even that strong? What was his last fight? Danzou?

I'm not sure if he has enough to stack up to Naruto.
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