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View Poll Results: Sword Art Online - Episode 12 Rating
10 out of 10 : Near Perfect.... 44 29.93%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 31 21.09%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 29 19.73%
7 out of 10 : Good... 20 13.61%
6 out of 10 : Average... 12 8.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 3 2.04%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 3 2.04%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 3 2.04%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 1 0.68%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 1 0.68%
Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-23, 13:15   Link #181
Conan-san
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esebian View Post
Lol, if that would work that simple in RL noone would have computer problems xD normally he would have at least to shutdown the process of Yui, before he can copy her over to his storage imo.
The fact that he probably had to do it in some sort of command line interface makes it more impressive.
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Old 2012-09-23, 13:16   Link #182
Rakshasa
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Originally Posted by Esebian View Post
Ok, you are right I have forgotten that it plays in 2022 , but right now not rly as Virtual machines in the moment simply couldn't handle an entire AI, but yes in 10 years that will be most likely the case

EDIT: And yeah I have heard of all these but as I said made the foolish error to put the situation in nowadays computer industry XD
...

I've been working this job for a year now implementing virtualized networking and now someone on the internet tells me that virtual machines aren't production ready?
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Old 2012-09-23, 13:19   Link #183
larethian
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Originally Posted by Esebian View Post
Lol, if that would work that simple in RL noone would have computer problems xD normally he would have at least to shutdown the process of Yui, before he can copy her over to his storage imo.
huh, you need to shut down a process to do a copy (read) operation on the program?
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Old 2012-09-23, 13:19   Link #184
woodearth
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Wow, I am impressed. The producers manage to recall a minor character from Ep 2, the fact about a creature's heart, expanded a bit on the front and other little bits. And using the flashback style that I like - short and sweet. The show really is tying together. Good thing they give this a 2 cour breathing room.
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Old 2012-09-23, 13:26   Link #185
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Originally Posted by larethian View Post
huh, you need to shut down a process to do a copy (read) operation on the program?
I could explain in quite detail how an operating system can implement taking snapshot of a process, however it isn't simply about copying. Especially if you don't want to halt the process. No major operating system today really support that though, and we're moving towards using virtual machines anyway.
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Old 2012-09-23, 13:27   Link #186
Esebian
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Originally Posted by Rakshasa View Post
...

I've been working this job for a year now implementing virtualized networking and now someone on the internet tells me that virtual machines aren't production ready?
Hmm, you understand me wrong, I know what virtual machines can but I also know that they still have their problems, for example they can be slower than actual machines for the programm. I do NOT say that virtual machines are not good now, hell everyone who has ever mounted some image with deamon tools or alcohol 120 % has used virtual disc drives, I am just thinking that right now it wouldn't be enough for handling AIs + a huge mass of NPCs, well for that I'm not up-to-date so if it is already good enough then I beg your pardon
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Old 2012-09-23, 13:39   Link #187
Rakshasa
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Originally Posted by Esebian View Post
Hmm, you understand me wrong, I know what virtual machines can but I also know that they still have their problems, for example they can be slower than actual machines for the programm. I do NOT say that virtual machines are not good now, hell everyone who has ever mounted some image with deamon tools or alcohol 120 % has used virtual disc drives, I am just thinking that right now it wouldn't be enough for handling AIs + a huge mass of NPCs, well for that I'm not up-to-date so if it is already good enough then I beg your pardon
I think you need to beg for that pardon.

Basically as a rule to live by don't argue with someone working in a field about what is and isn't possible / suitable for a particular task.
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Old 2012-09-23, 14:00   Link #188
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Originally Posted by Rakshasa View Post
Basically as a rule to live by don't argue with someone working in a field about what is and isn't possible / suitable for a particular task.

ITT people who probably aren't IT pros try to tell IT pros how computers work ^_^ It's very easy 'today' to copy programs that are still running, often times without even letting the program know it's been copied. Who knows how far advanced we'll be in a decade (although it's an industry I've recently left, so I don't have much to add).

But I digress,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm saying you can't have it both way - either the GMs have a modicum of competence regarding the application's code and they will possibly have access to it, along with powerful, flexible tools that maybe won't be so easy to use for any idiot pulled off the street, or they don't, and what they can do is severely limited by the need to simplify their UI and by the lack of trust placed in them not to mess things up.
I'll be honest, I never really considered the whole process. My assumption for this episode (which is slightly divorced from what I know as a novel reader, because spoilers are bad and pointless for conversations here) is that an emergency terminal for GM usage as a physical thing buried in the middle of a dungeon that probably isn't intended for player access (who the heck sticks a boss in the middle of a dungeon guarding a safe room with a terminal in it?) would have a wide variety of options / controls, simply because it's an emergency setup.

Standard GM controls would be accessed via NervGEAR, so this is something outside the norm, and therefore needs more access / controls, without over-complicating the process.

Working in IT in the past I've seen low-paid employees given the virtual equivalent to the 'keys to the kingdom' in terms of access, typically in sealed envelopes, in case stuff hits the fan when they're working late night shifts. IE - you have a low paid IT guy who could do virtually anything, and you trust him with these rights, because he's the only guy who's going to be around in that time frame, and you do this because you don't always want to have to wait for someone to get into the physical building (and said IT guy knows he'll be fired if that envelope is ever opened outside an emergency).

But, back on topic, my assumption was simply that Kirito found the folder / running process and simply made a copy of it. He lightly touched on the matter later in the episode when he said he wasn't positive he would be able to 'recreate' her later. Copying a running process to local memory doesn't really suggest much 'system level access' to me, but it's hard to be sure in the framework we're given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Admittedly, my experience isn't in games, but what I imagine should happen is that if a player spots a bug and tells a GM, the GM (who isn't a coder) will try to reproduce it, and if he can do it, will then kick the matter to maintenance (who will be coders) along with the logs, or a way to extract the relevant logs, so they can try to reproduce it on a development server. At no point will the GM have access to the code, or even the raw data that makes up the application, nor can they be expected to extract the relevant bits. Though they may have techs to call on to do that.
Typically you have the GM attempt to replicate it first, because most of the 'bug' reports player's produce are pure garbage ^^, and both GM's and players have access (at least in Eve Online) to the test environment in order to test things in a 'controlled' environment.

The GM in question (or in many cases a dedicated bug hunter) in a bug report is going to try to replicate the issue, or, more commonly simply look at the bug and say it's 'working as intended' or 'the logs show nothing'. But you really don't want GM's testing things in production, because then you have a physical GM avatar mucking around in the game universe, and that always goes poorly.

Dunno, honestly I'm not that vested in the argument either way, but again, my assumption is simply that Kirito made a copy of a running process to his PC and that such a task wouldn't be too far out of scope of a GM operating from an emergency terminal.
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Old 2012-09-23, 14:29   Link #189
Awrya
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Originally Posted by woodearth View Post
Wow, I am impressed. The producers manage to recall a minor character from Ep 2, the fact about a creature's heart, expanded a bit on the front and other little bits. And using the flashback style that I like - short and sweet. The show really is tying together. Good thing they give this a 2 cour breathing room.
They're adapting the LN, if anything SAO's author Kawahara remembered Kibaou
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Old 2012-09-23, 14:37   Link #190
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
But, back on topic, my assumption was simply that Kirito found the folder / running process and simply made a copy of it. He lightly touched on the matter later in the episode when he said he wasn't positive he would be able to 'recreate' her later. Copying a running process to local memory doesn't really suggest much 'system level access' to me, but it's hard to be sure in the framework we're given.
From my own experience in a similar game system enviroment so is copying an object to the outside the lowest security level of any admin employe. Making any changes to code that is going to run is another matter. But just making a private copy to look at and maybe edit is basic tutorial stuff for new people.

Note that copying code is the basis for doing stuff in a massive game like this. Most new stuff is basically some old thing with a few minor changes to the numbers or some extra code added.
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Old 2012-09-23, 15:05   Link #191
Klashikari
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Probably redundant, but I also have huge suspension of disbelief trouble regarding Kirito's stunt with the GM account. Regardless how Kirito is proficient in programming and computer languages whatsoever, the timeframe he had for that was ridiculously small, and the way how it was described require more than just GM Right. Other issue is of course the need for a GM terminal in-game instead of the console being accessible from their own menu via their nervegear.
The other problem is how Cardinal conveniently takes so long to terminate Yui's program, whilst the check occured the moment she accessed the GM terminal for the instantgib hack.

My other gripe with this episode was how bland and passive the boss was. It was so underwhelming that I was wondering why Kirito couldn't just keep a guard stance while walking backwards. Really, the boss was hardly active, and since Yui, Yuriel and Thinker were safe, what they only need to do was dashing there. Of course, there is no evidence the boss wouldn't give the chase, but at least they should have made the situation clearly dangerous so that a straight dash wouldn't be possible (like the boss having some flash steps and/or positioned between kirito/asuna and the safe zone).
But the nature of the safe zone make the "escape" urgency even less tangible, because the boss just cannot reach those who are inside of it. Therefore, the real problem was whether or not Asuna and Kirito can get in there, instead of having Yuriel, Thinker and Yui teleporting asap.

But really, that arc was awkward at best: the theme isn't really that bad, and having more lore and background for SAO (the game) is always welcome, but the writing and directing were below average.
I'm not even bothered by the yet again budget dive, since this arc has little importance in the plot in general. It surely felt as disjointed as the previous side stories, save the little interactions between Asuna and Kirito, but that's far as it goes.
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Old 2012-09-23, 15:43   Link #192
Adigard
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
My other gripe with this episode was how bland and passive the boss was. It was so underwhelming that I was wondering why Kirito couldn't just keep a guard stance while walking backwards.
It's certainly the most 'unfair' boss event to-date, but since most of your other points were already addressed, no reason to rehash it all anew ^^
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Old 2012-09-23, 17:53   Link #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conan-san View Post
The fact that he probably had to do it in some sort of command line interface makes it more impressive.
Assuming you're in a command line interface...*ahem*
help
find MPHC001
copy MPHC001 <Kirito's NervGear>
create <<Yui's Heart>>

...add the fact that he seems to have an insane amount of reaction speed (I don't know about you but it seems to be the case. How else can he dodge the 74th Floor Boss? ) his time was probably slowed down to a crawl as he typed.

...and there's the fact that it's an emergency terminal for GMs -- noobs who don't know a thing or two about programming.
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Old 2012-09-23, 18:16   Link #194
Bahamut
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...seeing death enter the scene...i had to admit i was expecting him to duel-wield guns with "burn my dread" as bgm...
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Old 2012-09-23, 18:26   Link #195
miroku2192
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So how exactly does the teleportation device work during "boss-fights"? This grim reaper literally flew away after the initial attack, to another portion of the corridor. And Asuna and Kirito chase after it to the left. Why not run forward and go to safe zone and teleport out?

How did the guy who was already in the safe-zone make it to the safe zone in the first place? Is it not a straight dash? WTF is going on, very lost.
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Old 2012-09-23, 18:37   Link #196
Irenicus
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Seeing moe little Yui jumping up and down in joy as Kirito delivers carnage upon unsuspecting frogs was hilarious. I guess "cheering on players as they slaughter monsters" is part of the psychological care package. "Do it papa! Kill it with fire!"

Also, I propose they transfer Yui's AI to a lolibot body once they get out, so Kirito and Asuna's first human child can experience a light novel-style "onee-chan wa robotto da!" life.
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Old 2012-09-23, 18:43   Link #197
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Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
So how exactly does the teleportation device work during "boss-fights"? This grim reaper literally flew away after the initial attack, to another portion of the corridor. And Asuna and Kirito chase after it to the left. Why not run forward and go to safe zone and teleport out?

How did the guy who was already in the safe-zone make it to the safe zone in the first place? Is it not a straight dash? WTF is going on, very lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
Spoiler for Vol. 1 & 2 -- cut out detail from Blue-Eyed Demon Episode -- Game Mechanics:
... considering that it IS a boss, extra caution is advised.
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Old 2012-09-23, 19:25   Link #198
M.A.D
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Originally Posted by Esebian View Post
Lol, if that would work that simple in RL noone would have computer problems xD normally he would have at least to shutdown the process of Yui, before he can copy her over to his storage imo.
No, he doesn't. He only has to shutdown Yui's program if he wants to alter or delete her. Copying doesn't affect the source, so it can be done even while the program is running (just check it yourself with your computer).
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Old 2012-09-23, 21:27   Link #199
larethian
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Originally Posted by Rakshasa View Post
I could explain in quite detail how an operating system can implement taking snapshot of a process, however it isn't simply about copying. Especially if you don't want to halt the process. No major operating system today really support that though, and we're moving towards using virtual machines anyway.
My question to Esebian was : why would we need to kill a process of a program if we just want to copy the program and its data (which are basically files on the hard drive)? The data might not be copyable for sanity reasons if the process is holding a read-write lock on it and updating the data, but copying the program itself should not be a problem if you have sufficient privileges. I'm not asking about runtime process snapshots which also wasn't what Esebian was talking about, at least that's what I understood. Unless the way Yui was engineered is completely beyond our current understanding of 'programs'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esebian View Post
Hmm, you understand me wrong, I know what virtual machines can but I also know that they still have their problems, for example they can be slower than actual machines for the programm. I do NOT say that virtual machines are not good now, hell everyone who has ever mounted some image with deamon tools or alcohol 120 % has used virtual disc drives, I am just thinking that right now it wouldn't be enough for handling AIs + a huge mass of NPCs, well for that I'm not up-to-date so if it is already good enough then I beg your pardon
Virtual drives and VMs are on completely different scales. But you are right to say that VMs still have issues with speed and certain 3D operations (especially on virtualbox since I use it myself, not sure for VMWare though), but I don't see it as a problem in future with Moore's law still in operation (I hope?).


Anyhow, Kawahara is only strong in details and setting with respect to games. When it comes to technological stuff which is outside of his area of expertise, anyone with intermediate level of knowledge of the technology can see that his writing and premises are *cough*, not something I will call good. It is always like that with him. I've already given up complaining on several things given the massive backlash from Naruto SAO fanboys. Techno aside, he does write an engaging plot and interesting character interactions though.
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Old 2012-09-23, 21:29   Link #200
Master_Yoma
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Spoiler for Yui:
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