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Old 2012-09-25, 00:14   Link #401
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
For example I hated Haruhi's endless 8 because it was the ultimate insult to a loyal fanbase, a complete slap in the face. Especially someone like me who actually purchased the first season, so yeah I had more than enough reason to be resentful.
Hey, if you want an example of "anime you love but 'everyone else hates'", here's a good one for me. Personally, I loved Endless Eight; I found it totally fascinating from a meta perspective, and a very interesting way of conveying the inherent frustration that was intended as the point of the arc. Watching how the different episode directors/storyboard artists retold the same story was fascinating to me. And of course watching the frustration play out in the fanbase was also quite an experience. Maybe these aren't all the normal reasons to like something, but I was entertained. I will watch it again at some point; one of the most interesting (and controversial) modern art experiments of the last decade, in my view.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Why do people waste their time sometimes watching things they hate? Maybe because being bored is even worse .
But it's so hard not to think "You know, there's a really easy solution to this problem -- turn it off!" I prefer Archon_Wing's explanation: masochists, the whole lot of you.
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Old 2012-09-25, 06:20   Link #402
Lenaisian
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Originally Posted by sudolicious View Post
Maybe it's too early or I'm simply retarded, but I don't get over half of your post. Are you praising me here or are you naming me as an bad example? Because if the latter should be the case, I just wanted to comment on ForwardUntoDawns post, in which he said that "most Anime fans" would hate it, I just wanted to make clear what kind of people hate it and for what stupid reasons.

Of course them hating won't affect anything, but how can you even seriously ask that question in the first place? It's not about whether it affects something or not, this is a discussion forum, the very nature of this website is to exchange opinions and views. If someone is criticizing Strike Witches with legitimate arguments and therefor concludes that Strike Witches is "bad", then I would be glad to discuss this topic with him.
But, if someone is ranting about a certain show, without giving any proper arguments whatsoever, while just hanging onto one tiny irrelevant aspect, then I won't bother giving "reasons".
I dismissed their complaints and moved on to the more important part of my post, establishing that SW has a lot more fans than haters. I don't have a problem with people not enjoying shows I liked, I just don't like to see them talking out of their ass and trying to make the show look bad when they clearly don't have any foundation for it in the first place.
But again, that hasn't even been the case here, my focus was on supporting the fanbase, and not bashing the haters.

If I simply misunderstood your post - which I still think is highly possible - then I'm sorry, in this case I hope I didn't offend you and would delete my post soon. I was just a bit surprised to see this kind of reply, especially since someone else told me to "behave", so I thought this two things could be related to each other.
... alright, maybe I just went overboard there. If you misunderstood my opinions on my earlier post, it's okay. Everyone makes mistakes (hey, I got two red cards on my profile for my highly-opinionated, but HIGHLY-BIASED posts on other topics). I, too, am also making mistakes (either unknowingly, or because of my highly-biased opinions), so if I made you suspect of whether I am praising you or not, I apologize for not clearing up the misunderstanding.

PS: I was reek of both gin and cigs last time... just ignore my earlier post if you really have a hard time understanding it, and think of me as a sharp double-edged sword. Other thing, DO NOT DELETE THAT REPLY, AS IT WILL REMIND ME OF MY OWN MISTAKES (mostly, because of the environment I grew up in: an open dumpsite community with people who desperately hoped for a change to happen, but has never come to fruition yet... but also there are other factors involved).
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Old 2012-09-25, 06:27   Link #403
hyl
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I can't hate a series. Because hating a series is utterly moronic.

If you don't like a series, then DISINTEREST takes care of the rest.
There are hundreds, thousands of things I find boring. I don't hate them, because due to having no interest in them, I don't read/watch/listen to them.

Disinterest shouldn't produce a strong emtion in people like hatred.

It would have to be a very isolated, special case for something like that to happen.
Like a hit song that's utterly annoying to you, but gets played all the time, forcing you to listen to it
Sometimes a serie can be "hated" due to some kind of disappointment, like not living up to it's hype or that serie ended up having a pairing or outcome that you did not like/expect.
If that is the case, then the disinterest does not come into play or comes way too late into play.

There is also another kind of hate that i am seeing, but that looks more like a bias towards it's genre or it's popularity. Like for example there aee lots of hate towards the generic "moeblob" (like k-on) or "shounen action" (like "the shounen jump big 3": one piece,naruto and bleach) series.
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Old 2012-09-25, 06:51   Link #404
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I think that there's a certain phenomena in the anime fan community (and in the fan communities of most modern entertainment forms, really) that plays a huge role in how certain anime shows (or video games, comic books, etc...) can become seriously hated.

That phenomena is that there's a vague sense of "Geek Cred" (for lack of a better term, perhaps) that comes with being able to say "I saw it, I played it, I read it".

In other words, if you're part of a dedicated fan community, there can be an implicit expectation that you've seen, played, read all of the most widely talked about offerings of whatever it is your fan community is about.

So, with gamers for example, there might be a sense that if you've never tried Halo, or if you've never tried Medal of Honor, or if you've never tried WoW, then you're not a "real" gamer - You're not experiencing the gaming world to the full extent that you should.


Now, I'm certainly not defending this sort of fan community mentality, but it is there, and it is pervasive, even if it is at a subtle and/or unstated level. A member of a fan community can easily feel "left out" if he or she hasn't experienced the more heavily hyped entertainment offerings that the fan community talks about.


So, some people watch K-On, and they watch the Monogatari series, and they watch Madoka Magica, and they watch Sword Art Online, because there's a vague (but real) sense that "If you're a serious anime fan, you've at least seen this show, and ideally you've watched it in its entirety!". But of course not all anime fans are going to like all of these shows.

So some serious anime fans may sort of "soldier through" a show they don't like because there's a sense of expectation that being an anime fan entails watching what your fellow anime fans are talking so much about. So people will watch through shows that they don't really, truly like just because of the hype, and there's a certain frustration that comes from this. You truly come to hate a show because you don't like the show and it's popularity is "making" you watch it so you can assure your image as a serious anime fan isn't tarnished.


Of course, you don't really have to watch it, but you don't want to feel left out of the conversation either.

This is why the most popular shows can at times be very polarizing while the more obscure shows rarely have a serious "hate-base" - Precisely because they're obscure, people feel more at ease in dropping them even after just a displeasing episode or two.


As I get older, I feel more comfortable in not having seen all of the big-name titles. For example, I only watched a couple episodes of Horizon because the show just didn't click with me. I had a sense that soldiering through that show would just make me hate it, and that wouldn't benefit either serious Horizon fans or myself. But I admit from time-to-time I feel compelled to watch a show because it's what most or all of my anime-watching friends are talking about. So there can be that temptation to "soldier through" what you don't really like just to satisfy your anime-watching friends, and that can easily lead to a person hating a show.


Now, E8 is a great example of a different reason why shows become hated. Say you've already seen Haruhi, and you really do love the series and show. E8 comes around, and it may be tremendously disappointing and upsetting to you because you're a fan of Haruhi.
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Old 2012-09-25, 07:28   Link #405
Goggen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So some serious anime fans may sort of "soldier through" a show they don't like because there's a sense of expectation that being an anime fan entails watching what your fellow anime fans are talking so much about. So people will watch through shows that they don't really, truly like just because of the hype, and there's a certain frustration that comes from this. You truly come to hate a show because you don't like the show and it's popularity is "making" you watch it so you can assure your image as a serious anime fan isn't tarnished.
I am so, so glad I don't have this problem. Seriously, if you're not enjoying an anime, don't watch it just for "cred" or whatever. You're only wasting your own time. It's not worth it.

("You" here meaning "general you" and not referring to Triple_R)
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Old 2012-09-25, 07:40   Link #406
hyl
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Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
I am so, so glad I don't have this problem. Seriously, if you're not enjoying an anime, don't watch it just for "cred" or whatever. You're only wasting your own time. It's not worth it.

("You" here meaning "general you" and not referring to Triple_R)
I disagree, some animes that i have seen started out great and it was fullfilling my expectations. But as the serie went on, it gradually get worse. By the time when i realized that the serie was going to end as a disappointment, i still kept watching it. Because dropping a serie after sitting through 10 episodes and not finish it eventhough there are at most 3 episodes left, is in my opinion a bigger waste of time.

As for not being worth it, i even more strongly disagree on that. Personally , I think criticism from the perspective of someone who disliked a show is also needed for a better discussion.
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Old 2012-09-25, 07:53   Link #407
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I disagree, some animes that i have seen started out great and it was fullfilling my expectations. But as the serie went on, it gradually get worse. By the time when i realized that the serie was going to end as a disappointment, i still kept watching it. Because dropping a serie after sitting through 10 episodes and not finish it eventhough there are at most 3 episodes left, is in my opinion a bigger waste of time.
Yeah, but that's not what I was talking about though. I'm talking about watching an anime you know you're probably going to dislike because you feel you "have to" because of it's popularity. That is a waste of your time that doesn't do anybody any good. Not you who will have wasted time that could have been better spent doing something you enjoy, and not the fans of that anime who have to endure your bitching about it afterwards.

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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
As for not being worth it, i even more strongly disagree on that. Personally , I think criticism from the perspective of someone who disliked a show is also needed for a better discussion.
edit: of course i mean if the dislike is not baseless.
I don't think I've ever seen anything worthwhile coming about as a result of someone who flat out hates an anime joining in discussion about it, to be honest.
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Old 2012-09-25, 08:14   Link #408
hyl
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Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
Yeah, but that's not what I was talking about though. I'm talking about watching an anime you know you're probably going to dislike because you feel you "have to" because of it's popularity. That is a waste of your time that doesn't do anybody any good. Not you who will have wasted time that could have been better spent doing something you enjoy, and not the fans of that anime who have to endure your bitching about it afterwards.
That is not always the case. As for myself with a non anime example, i am still a sci-fi fan mostly because of star wars and robot series in my childhood. However due to all the praise that it got overall from the "sci-fi community" i have persuaded myself to watch watched Star Trek and some sci-series but overall those did not appeal to me. There were even some praised series that I didn't like at all.

I can see how some anime fans might want to try series that initially doesn't appeal to them due to all the praise that it got. It's even possible that some of them might change their minds about it and apprectiate it. If you don't try something, then you can't say for sure that you don't like it. (note: there are obvious notable exceptions to what i posted, like people who are afraid of blood definitely don't need to watch a horror/slasher movie to say that they don't like it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
I don't think I've ever seen anything worthwhile coming about as a result of someone who flat out hates an anime joining in discussion about it, to be honest.
And nothing worthwhile comes out as a result of people who fanatically praise something and doesn't like any form of criticism.

Of course, baseless hate doesn't lead to anything. But not every "hate" is baseless.
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Old 2012-09-25, 08:41   Link #409
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
That is not always the case.
Of course it's not always the case. I'm talking about when it is the case.

Edit: To clarify, I do of course realize there are times when one might be won over by an anime one doesn't initially expect to like. Hell, that's what happened to me with K-ON!. Still, you can't tell me there aren't times when you can tell from the start that you're going to hate a show. Those are the times I'm talking about. That's when I think it's useless to suffer through it just so you can say "I watched it".
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Old 2012-09-25, 09:41   Link #410
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Apologies for bringing a topic that has been left from the previous page.

Quote:
I loved Hidan no Aria and was baffled at first by how much hatred it got online. After getting to understand anime communities a bit more I realized that it was mostly people jumping on bandwagons (protip: hating JC won't make you look sophisticated) and that on animesuki here even seem to be a few people actively following the LN, which I was really glad about. Still, the fanbase seems to be very small.
I agree that most of the hate behind Hidan no Aria is empty and at times sheer bandwagoning, but I'm one of those who, like relentlessflame had stated, "are initially interested in the series on principle, but are disappointed by the way it turns out."

I thought Hidan no Aria would handle a "descendant of Sherlock Holmes" character among those who claimed to have the bloodline of famous figures in history, but when I saw how the story resorted to sheer "dumb action" that is a sign of a mediocre light novel series, I went "fuck that shit" and dropped the series after the end of the first story arc. [I later realized that it was a good choice to have dropped this series, especially with how dismal the light novels' story development goes.]

On the current flow of discussion: that reminds me. I keep of picking up new series (added Robotics;Notes and Little Busters!) and my backlog keeps on growing. FML.
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Old 2012-09-25, 11:25   Link #411
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It's one of the earliest animes i ve seen yet i consider it to be one of the most memorable series of all time, the anime community seemed to have already forgotten about this show..
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Old 2012-09-25, 14:33   Link #412
MisaoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sudolicious View Post
tt: I loved Hidan no Aria and was baffled at first by how much hatred it got online. After getting to understand anime communities a bit more I realized that it was mostly people jumping on bandwagons (protip: hating JC won't make you look sophisticated) and that on animesuki here even seem to be a few people actively following the LN, which I was really glad about. Still, the fanbase seems to be very small.
I used to enjoy Hidan no Aria too, what made me love this series is the fun action and cute character designs. I am aware of the bashing, yet I didn't even realize that most people hate it. Bashing on a generic show is something that most people seems to jumps over the bandwagon, even the novel has some hate (I heard some people dropped it).
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Old 2012-09-25, 16:25   Link #413
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I think Hidan no Aria has a lot more appeal if you've yet to see any of the other, similar series. If I saw it when I was fresh into the fandom, I probably would have liked it at lot more, but as it stands, I've seen Kugimiya Rie in a handful of similar roles, and seen so many of the cliches in the show time and time again that it just fails to entertain.

Its main problem, in my mind, is that it's simply generic. Not horrible, just completely run of the mill.
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Old 2012-09-25, 20:50   Link #414
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I guess the expectations were set to be good but it failed to deliver when it was needed. That and it is generic for me like Echoes said.
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Old 2012-09-25, 23:41   Link #415
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Sometimes a serie can be "hated" due to some kind of disappointment, like not living up to it's hype or that serie ended up having a pairing or outcome that you did not like/expect.
If that is the case, then the disinterest does not come into play or comes way too late into play.

There is also another kind of hate that i am seeing, but that looks more like a bias towards it's genre or it's popularity. Like for example there aee lots of hate towards the generic "moeblob" (like k-on) or "shounen action" (like "the shounen jump big 3": one piece,naruto and bleach) series.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I disagree, some animes that i have seen started out great and it was fullfilling my expectations. But as the serie went on, it gradually get worse. By the time when i realized that the serie was going to end as a disappointment, i still kept watching it. Because dropping a serie after sitting through 10 episodes and not finish it eventhough there are at most 3 episodes left, is in my opinion a bigger waste of time.

As for not being worth it, i even more strongly disagree on that. Personally , I think criticism from the perspective of someone who disliked a show is also needed for a better discussion.
There's a difference between disliking a show, and hating one.
The latter suggests negatively passionate about the subject, which does not produce a good criticism.

Your argument about a subject needing critical viewpoint is actually counter-productive if it's generated from such passion.
Constructive criticism is spawned from a healthy balance of objective and subjective view, collected by a cool head. Not a passionate one.

This isn't just about anime, it's about anything in general.
If you want to actually have a meaningful, constructive dicussion, hate doesn't play a role anywhere in it.

Everyone is free to hate anything you want, but don't expect to be welcomed in a discussion on the subject... be it an opinion on an entertainment medium, religion, politics, or any other subject of discussion.
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Old 2012-09-26, 00:04   Link #416
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
I think Hidan no Aria has a lot more appeal if you've yet to see any of the other, similar series. If I saw it when I was fresh into the fandom, I probably would have liked it at lot more, but as it stands, I've seen Kugimiya Rie in a handful of similar roles, and seen so many of the cliches in the show time and time again that it just fails to entertain.
That reminds me of something. Sometimes hate can go in a meta-sense where if you feel one show you didn't like started a certain trend, and it infests nearby anime, the resentment could grow.

For example, if you hate Kugrie tsunderes, the sight of one that even resembles such traits could cause you to violently convulse. This isn't something that can be solved simply by not watching it depending on how influential an anime is. What am I gonna do? Avoid every anime with a tsundere in it?

Or let's say you really didn't like Evangelion and enjoyed hot blooded mecha anime. Eventually, over time, your preference of mecha anime gets overtaken by an excess of brooding anti-heroes with lots of introspection. And a bunch of Shinji/Rei clones pop around in every show you attempt to watch, even ones far away from the mecha genre. Would that dislike not evolve into resentment?

It's no surprise that whatever the popular moe show is gets an undue amount of hate because people perceive it to be some kind of disease that infects their "good" anime. K-on (And Lucky Star before), for example gets hated by the "Kyoani y u no FMP" crowd, and Haruhi/Key stuff got the same flak back then.

I think it was most blatant when I first decided to frequent AS and people were attributing "K-onification" as a criticism of Haruhi 2009, and at that time I was like "WTF is everyone talking about?".

Still, I've had plenty of useful conversations with people that outright hate shows I like. I like to view it sometimes from other views, and often times they actually have legitimate points that bothered them too much but not you, so it's really not a bad discussion as many as would think.
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Old 2012-09-26, 00:15   Link #417
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
There's a difference between disliking a show, and hating one.
The latter suggests negatively passionate about the subject, which does not produce a good criticism.
Yeah, as a mod, I can definitely relate to this. Usually "hate" is tied to something else -- it could be bitterness, or moral outrage, or deep-set bias, or even some sort of trauma or sense of betrayal. And so you get a lot of "passion" (as you said), but very little in the way of objectivity and understanding. Sometimes, it's very hard to talk these people off the proverbial "roof" because they are so convinced that expressing their hatred is their god-given right (and to them it's almost cathartic). So having a "conversation" with these people can be an exercise in futility, even though the whole point of the forum is to have conversation (not just witness a contest of who can scream the loudest).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
For example, if you hate Kugrie tsunderes, the sight of one that even resembles such traits could cause you to violently convulse. This isn't something that can be solved simply by not watching it depending on how influential an anime is. What am I gonna do? Avoid every anime with a tsundere in it?
Well, you're being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but honestly (and this isn't directed at you at all, to be clear -- just the point in concept):

1. Become self-aware enough to recognize that your bias is not objective
2. Don't blame the show (or its staff or its fans) for your own bias
3. Try to be reasonable/fair with other people who have different perspectives than you do
4. Don't let your bias get the best of you (or let fellow "haters" fuel your fire too much)

If you're going into a show knowing it has elements you don't like, it doesn't make much sense to harp on it for doing the very things you should have known it was going to do. This just makes you look like a fool who doesn't know how to show discernment, or some sort of troll who has to keep on repeating forgone conclusions just to draw attention to yourself. Getting all aggravated because a show you don't like is popular is childish and unbecoming.

Or, in other words: gain some perspective and grow up.

(And again, I want to emphasize that this isn't directed at you in particular, even though I used "you". It's just directed at your hypothetical argument.)
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Old 2012-09-26, 00:54   Link #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Yeah, as a mod, I can definitely relate to this. Usually "hate" is tied to something else -- it could be bitterness, or moral outrage, or deep-set bias, or even some sort of trauma or sense of betrayal. And so you get a lot of "passion" (as you said), but very little in the way of objectivity and understanding. Sometimes, it's very hard to talk these people off the proverbial "roof" because they are so convinced that expressing their hatred is their god-given right (and to them it's almost cathartic). So having a "conversation" with these people can be an exercise in futility, even though the whole point of the forum is to have conversation (not just witness a contest of who can scream the loudest).
Shipping failures also tend to result in extremely loud and incomprehensible criticism.

IMO, catharsis can be a really good thing since there's so much in the world that can go wrong. Though some people take it way too far and their criticism becomes overblown. For example, they may say "the plot is retarded" but cannot come up with specific examples.

I actually do believe a lot of the angrier posts have a lot of good points, but it can be drowned out by excessive focus on a few points. It seems like they watch with a clipboard checking off "Things not to do" and that just gives me a headache. It's also why I started not liking this thread's sister thread.

Quote:
Well, you're being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but honestly (and this isn't directed at you at all, to be clear -- just the point in concept):

1. Become self-aware enough to recognize that your bias is not objective
2. Don't blame the show (or its staff or its fans) for your own bias
3. Try to be reasonable/fair with other people who have different perspectives than you do
4. Don't let your bias get the best of you (or let fellow "haters" fuel your fire too much)

If you're going into a show knowing it has elements you don't like, it doesn't make much sense to harp on it for doing the very things you should have known it was going to do. This just makes you look like a fool who doesn't know how to show discernment, or some sort of troll who has to keep on repeating forgone conclusions just to draw attention to yourself. Getting all aggravated because a show you don't like is popular is childish and unbecoming.

Or, in other words: gain some perspective and grow up.

(And again, I want to emphasize that this isn't directed at you in particular, even though I used "you". It's just directed at your hypothetical argument.)
Well, such methods would be useful in presenting one's own thoughts, but certain outlying emotions aren't so easy to detect as suggested by my simplified examples. Even if one recognizes their own biases, the effects might be felt elsewhere. Entertainment is at least partially an emotional experience, and thus the reason why I was exploring these thoughts in the first place.

Though I would say I've never understood hating an anime for being popular, because it has nothing to do with the anime itself. Fan-hating is something that is almost never productive.

The forgone conclusion thing is one thing to look out for. There's absolutely no point in evaluating something that you've already deemed as guilty.

Personally, I have very little to say about series I really dislike. In fact, the silent treatment is actually my highest level of disdain.
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Old 2012-09-26, 01:24   Link #419
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Well, such methods would be useful in presenting one's own thoughts, but certain outlying emotions aren't so easy to detect as suggested by my simplified examples. Even if one recognizes their own biases, the effects might be felt elsewhere. Entertainment is at least partially an emotional experience, and thus the reason why I was exploring these thoughts in the first place.
Very true. The way I see it, our interactions with anime (and other sorts of fiction) are less about learning to judge the products, but more about coming to understand our own unique perspective on things through the lens of our experiences. So of course there'll be times when we feel like being critical of things (as a way of explaining our reactions and perspective), but trying to keep a view that it's all because of our own expectations and biases helps keep things from getting too personal. Of course, sometimes it can be a bit hard to relate to the perspective others have, and so there'll be some arguments... but I usually try to keep "hate" out of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Shipping failures also tend to result in extremely loud and incomprehensible criticism.
Well, yeah. More perhaps than the "loving shows that everyone hates", I could probably come up with a pretty good list of shows where I liked the ending even though it made a lot of shippers mad. You often get arguments from these people that the ending as presented is illogical, improperly justified, arbitrary, and all sorts of other things... and it's pretty hard to reconcile.


You're right when you imply that bias can be subtle and insidious, and sometimes it can be hard to recognize. But I guess this is why it's good to have places like the Forums to give you some sort of gut check. It just depends on whether you're able to criticize your own self -- not always easy...
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Old 2012-09-26, 01:56   Link #420
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Shipping failures also tend to result in extremely loud and incomprehensible criticism.
Absolutely true. That’s why I’m not a shipper (and never plan to be one). As long as the “final pair” got proper development & interaction, it’s all roses for me.

There’s also this apparent problem within a big franchise that when you declare that you love what considered to be “the worst of the franchise”, the other so-called “loyal fans” will gang up on you and will try to bring you down. I experienced it myself sometime ago in a certain Macross thread. When I said that I like Macross 7 better than Macross Frontier, minutes later, 2-3 regulars from Macross-related threads gave me some “warm welcome” in the form of walls of text from each one of them which basically saying “You have bad taste, so GTFO of this thread!”..... Wow
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