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Old 2012-09-25, 20:37   Link #2701
bhl88
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lol amulet gauntlets XD

The guardians were sent back to the book though.
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Old 2013-01-31, 01:03   Link #2702
Rising Dragon
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No, I mean using the tech from artificial mages in to clones, not that they use both projects together. I am wondering why Precia try to make her clone different using artificial mage techniques that in the end did make an entire different person.

Unlimited Desire was just a one shot fail with Jail, I know that. And I say fail because how he ended up, but on the other hand they might did do it right so just my take on it.
It's probably because as far as we know, Project Fate is the only known method for cloning in Bureau-controlled territories. It's also possible that it was the only project that would be compatible with how she completed it, with her research into familiars.

I wouldn't call Unlimited Desire a "fail". It's closer to what you'd call "gone horribly right", since it DID give the Brains what they wanted: an incredibly intelligent and motivated scientist to do the otherwise shady/illegal research they needed. They just failed to control him and underestimated him.
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Old 2013-01-31, 09:51   Link #2703
Sunder the Gold
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lol amulet gauntlets XD
Poor Zafira.


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The guardians were sent back to the book though.
I don't understand your intent or point.
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Old 2013-01-31, 11:09   Link #2704
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It's interesting to note that TV and Movie the 1st treated how Precia regarded Fate differently. At least as far as I can recall; in TV, Precia saw Fate as convient clone to do the dirty work for her in gathering materials needed for her to bring back Alicia, whereas in movie, Precia truly saw her as possible way to bring back Alicia... until she realized that it was a failure.

Correct me if I'm mistaken though.
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Old 2013-01-31, 11:26   Link #2705
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Yeah, thst's wrong. In both, Precia tried to bring back Alicia via cloning, creating Fate. Eventually saw that Fate was different, and began to hate her, deciding to use her as a tool.
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Old 2013-01-31, 12:23   Link #2706
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It's probably because as far as we know, Project Fate is the only known method for cloning in Bureau-controlled territories. It's also possible that it was the only project that would be compatible with how she completed it, with her research into familiars.

I wouldn't call Unlimited Desire a "fail". It's closer to what you'd call "gone horribly right", since it DID give the Brains what they wanted: an incredibly intelligent and motivated scientist to do the otherwise shady/illegal research they needed. They just failed to control him and underestimated him.

But you say it yourself: as far as we know and a lot of times we have to assume things we donít know in the series. So really wonít be a surprise if some other planet did create cloning tech. I mean we are talking about dozens if not hundreds of worlds just under the TSAB administration so could be possible but letís go with what we know for sure, because the other way around opens the door to anything really.

Again cloning is not really something we can just combine with genetic manipulation if we want a perfect copy. The familiars are poorly explained but, what they have to do with anything about cloning? Maybe the part when they get knowledge from the mage but that could jut to transplant information between two living beings not rediscover memories thanks to a perfect replica of cells. My inner nerd just wonít allow such a poor explanation for science fiction. My more rational part says in the movie or in the first season never matter. Was StrikerS who decide to bring more science fiction elements and let a lot of questions unanswered. But with Precia is again she didnít need to do what she did, make Fate an artificial mage.

And no, Unlimited Desire was a fail. You see, as far as we know, Jail never give the TSAB any tech. He just makes his cyborgs, Gadget Drones and bad things for not good reasons until he discovered the Cradle and kills the brains ruining everything in a single week. They never get anything back from that project but troubles, treason and death.
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Old 2013-01-31, 13:18   Link #2707
krisslanza
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It's interesting to note that TV and Movie the 1st treated how Precia regarded Fate differently. At least as far as I can recall; in TV, Precia saw Fate as convient clone to do the dirty work for her in gathering materials needed for her to bring back Alicia, whereas in movie, Precia truly saw her as possible way to bring back Alicia... until she realized that it was a failure.

Correct me if I'm mistaken though.
The movie Precia is a bit different, given that Fate wouldn't really let a movie with her mom in it paint her badly. She still loves her, after all.

I'm also fairly certain cloning is illegal in the TSAB. At the very least, clones that would in anyway act like the one they're cloned from - I think Project Fate had, as a goal, to actually make it possible to clone someone with memories.

And Unlimited Desires DID work in a way. Jail did make the stuff the Council would've wanted - he just never gave it to them in a way they wanted. Mainly because the bulk of the TSAB wouldn't agree to it, so I guess even the High Council can't pull ALL the strings.
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Old 2013-02-02, 14:36   Link #2708
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But that is the point; they never get anything from Jail. They give him life, a purpose, money, freedom and he pays them back with really obvious treason plot. On that regard the project fault to create a scientist and create an unbalance individual that could never accomplish anything useful. Also if the High Council could not make the TSAB get in to lost technology then why they even bother will all this crap? Talking about creating your own doom.
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Old 2013-02-02, 15:25   Link #2709
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Yeah, why would he be mad at them creating him as a tool to create weapons and nothing else?

There was really no indication they treated him particularly well.
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Old 2013-02-02, 15:31   Link #2710
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Or that they did it wrong. In fact there is no indication he didn't have enough freedom to do all the research he wanted to. And is not like he is a psychology compulsion like the Riddler to just keep doing this kind of things, he was suppose to just want more tech.
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Old 2013-02-02, 16:29   Link #2711
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But that is the point; they never get anything from Jail.
Oh, but they did. Jail was quite public with a lot of his research, and this flowed back to the TSAB as well. For example, the TSAB has the tech to create and maintain cyborgs, as shown by their ability to provide proper maintenance to Ginga and Subaru from the moment they were rescued.
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Old 2013-02-02, 16:54   Link #2712
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But Jail say that those two were nothing like his Numbers. As a matter of fact he did want Ginga because he doesn't know much about how they are made.
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Old 2013-02-02, 17:27   Link #2713
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He never said they were "nothing like" the numbers, he said they were slightly different, because the people who created Ginga and Subaru were not Jail.

Jail is an open source creator. He creates the base tech, and then lets other scientists have their way with it. But that does not change that he is the origin of the technology. Do recall that Fate specifically noted Jail to be the creator of the genetic adjustments that let cyborg tech function as well as it does for them in the first place.
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Old 2013-02-02, 18:58   Link #2714
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I'd like to have more responses to my ideas on the Book of Darkness, which were posted at the bottom of the previous page.
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Old 2013-02-02, 19:18   Link #2715
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But the differences were there and in the end Jail didn't really give anything to the TSAB so they could use it. Cyborg tech is awesome but if you don't use it is like knowing how to drive and having no cars at all, nice but really nothing helpful. That is what I am getting at.

Those are interesting points but are you trying to get at Sunder?
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Old 2013-02-02, 19:22   Link #2716
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Just want to know if people agree or not.

Also, to discuss what abilities Hayate might really have been left with, if she doesnt have Collect And Absorb, or the Guardian Knight Program.

What alternatives to "blastier than Nanoha, but worse at everything else" would seem appropriate?
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Old 2013-02-02, 19:29   Link #2717
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I'm fairly certain that the Book left the spells it had collected for Hayate's use, so she probably still has access to Nanoha's Starlight Breaker and Fate's Plasma Lancer Shifts. She just doesn't use them in favor of her own spells from a meta-level, as the show would want to show her using spells unique to her and not those already used by Nanoha and Fate. It is, after all, fairly easy to learn spells from someone else if you know how. Nanoha taught Teana the Starlight Breaker, and Nanoha herself took Teana's Crossfire Shoot with little difficulty.
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Old 2013-02-02, 20:03   Link #2718
Sansker
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Yes but Hayate can take any spell being Mid-Childa or Belka and use it. That makes her special. She is not limit to one of the two like the rest. Then again Vivio says she can do the same.
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Old 2013-02-02, 20:18   Link #2719
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I'd like to have more responses to my ideas on the Book of Darkness, which were posted at the bottom of the previous page.
Very well.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Speculation:

The "Defense" program was something of a misnomer.
Misnomer? It was a program that defended the book. Sounds pretty accurate to me.

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Rather, the monster produced by the Book of Darkness each time was created through a deliberate corruption of the Tome's reincarnation function.
While the corruption of the book of darkness was indeed external, the deliberate intent of introducing a monster that goes on a rampage? Doubtful. This has all the makings of a bug, which means the monster was not intentional.

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The reincarnation is capable of recreating the Book across interstellar distances despite having no physical form with which to attempt either feat. Compared to that, creating a monster while the Book is still intact would be exceedingly simple.

In effect, the planet-killing monsters were familiars of the Book, which used all of the book's stolen energies until the tank ran empty and the monster died with it.
Or until the book gets destroyed.

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Since the monster is not a proper part of the Tome, the Administrative Program has no authority to control it, and cannot stop its rampage. And with the monster rapidly draining all available power, the Administrative program cannot maintain a physical form to attempt to personally combat it.
Hardly. If the monster was not a proper part of the book, she would have been able to expel it. The book cannot control the program for the same reason a computer can not fix a bug on it's own. Program limitations. A computer needs input from its user to fix a bug, which is exactly what happened here. Hayate took control of the book, and gave her the input that let her take out the bug.

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The Guardian Knight program, added as a part of the corruption, is slaved to it. That is, they are always cannibalized by the Book to feed the monster.

(Incidentally, the reincarnation function is how the Guardian Knight program is capable of constructing the Wolkenritter after activation, and even after their own destruction.)
This is true.

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Reinforce had to kill herself, since her existence as the Administrative Program was too closely tied to the rest of the original book.
Also true, but this is more evidence that the monster was a part of the book's OS, not a separate program.

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The Wolkenritter were a subprogram of a subprogram, and a later addition to boot. They could be safely excised.
True.

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However, by all of this thinking, Hayate would not have the Collect and Use function, as that was intrinsically a part of the Tome. If Reinforce was capable of sectioning off THAT function, she could have sectioned off the resurrection function, or herself.
Except that Reinforce is the book. It's a detail some seem wont to forget, but sectioning Reinforce from the book is essentially saying "separate the book from the book."

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Likewise, Hayate would not have the ability to quickly heal or fully resurrect the Wolkenritter, since that ought to be impossible without the original Tome's resurrection function. At best, the Wolkenritter would become fully independent magical creatures, like Unison Devices.
I do not see why not. The defense program was out of control, but that should not prevent her from accessing other functions anymore than a buggy virus scanner should block you out from your own PC. It might prevent your access to certain functions, but not all of them.

In short, I see no evidence whatsoever that the defense program was introduced externally, and indeed much more evidence that it was a corrupted program that comes with the Book of Darkness standard image.
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Old 2013-02-02, 20:47   Link #2720
krisslanza
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But that is the point; they never get anything from Jail. They give him life, a purpose, money, freedom and he pays them back with really obvious treason plot. On that regard the project fault to create a scientist and create an unbalance individual that could never accomplish anything useful. Also if the High Council could not make the TSAB get in to lost technology then why they even bother will all this crap? Talking about creating your own doom.
The High Council was involved in illegal stuff anyway, it's hard to tell how much of Jail's stuff actually got back to them. Heck, Jail may have helped make the Arc-en-Ciel perhaps.
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