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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 49
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 5 6.58%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 6 7.89%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 5 6.58%
7 out of 10: Good... 10 13.16%
6 out of 10: Average... 12 15.79%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 9 11.84%
4 out of 10: Poor... 8 10.53%
3 out of 10: Bad... 4 5.26%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 6 7.89%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 11 14.47%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-25, 13:55   Link #181
houkoholic
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Originally Posted by overloard View Post
No matter what kind of system he set up, he can't expect them to obey him if he shows up once in a couple of years to give some new orders and than goes back to cold sleep. Vagan higher-ups are not brainwashed zombies, they surely have ambitions beyond following Ezelcant's plan. Zanald is prime example, he is power hungry and doesn't have twisted unshakable loyalty to Ezelcant like Zeheart. I think it's a miracle that the man didn't try to backstab and usurp Ezelcant at the first opportunity, considering it's the first thing he did after learning of Zeheart's appointment.
But whatever ambition they have their ultimate goals still aligns - kill some Earthlings and take over Earth, also it's not like they have resources and wealth to fight over within the Vagan homeland plus they are all sitting on the SAME time bomb (Mars Rays, so there's no point just being a tyrant in Vagan homeland when in a few years everyone would be dead), thus I'm not sure how you can even develop factions when the ideals lines up so much - Ezelcant wasn't exactly peace loving nor was he showing weakness against the Earthlings, so usurp him is going to require some really damn good excuse otherwise you are going to get complete chaos and no followers. It would only make sense to overthrow Ezelcant if personal interest and method diverges, which is not the case even with Zanald.
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Old 2012-09-25, 13:57   Link #182
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It's as if everything was passed on to Zeheart and he took over as being the evil bastard, and Ezelcant was absolved of all his crimes.
Yep, I think we all went through this trend many times now after 49. In fact, Japanese reaction I gather from the boards pretty much says the same thing. Though I've yet seen anyone making a hard link to nationalism.

If there was a link, then the link is meant to be a satire. You can make a loose connection between him and the Showa Emperor. I mean, if you really want to.

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Old 2012-09-25, 14:15   Link #183
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I'm not going to rebuke any of the haters. Most of them have made their points.


As a whole, the story was a victim to bad writing. Either due to time constraints, or just having poor writers.

I still liked the series somewhat. I'm not saying it was like 00 quality, but I don't regret watching it.

I'm still not ashamed to admit I've been sympathizing with Kio all the way. People may not accept the way he came to want to save everyone, but personally my views are pretty similar to his. No one has the right to deny another's right to live. In the end, everyone was fighting their hardest because they wanted to live. The fact that suddenly an event happened that put everyone on the same side.. Yeah that's pretty much Deus Ex Machina right there. Either way, returning everyone in the solar system to a normal way of life through the combined power of the EXA-DB and the AGE system was a nice touch.

Asem....... He had that cool factor. As for deserting the federation to become a pirate. I dunno, he ended up defending both sides which I find commendable for reasons I stated above. Maybe he could've spent some more effort to actually find a way to end the war rather than prolong it though.

Flit..... Let me say this first and foremost: He is not wrong for wanting to fight the Vegans. Loved ones did need protecting, after all. Wanting to wipe them all out is going too far though. It's called "petty revenge". You don't just pull a nuke on people who merely wish to live. I'm glad he came around when it mattered. In the end, being a savior was more important than getting revenge.



Then there were a whole bunch of other characters who were awesome but didn't nearly get enough screentime. Time constraints mostly. Although this one could've been avoided by not having so damn many of them.

As for that final boss guy whose name I don't remember. I don't care about him but it doesn't look like he wasn't meant to be anyone worth caring about. Just some guy who was bred to fight.
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Old 2012-09-25, 14:21   Link #184
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
But whatever ambition they have their ultimate goals still aligns - kill some Earthlings and take over Earth, also it's not like they have resources and wealth to fight over within the Vagan homeland plus they are all sitting on the SAME time bomb (Mars Rays, so there's no point just being a tyrant in Vagan homeland when in a few years everyone would be dead), thus I'm not sure how you can even develop factions when the ideals lines up so much - Ezelcant wasn't exactly peace loving nor was he showing weakness against the Earthlings, so usurp him is going to require some really damn good excuse otherwise you are going to get complete chaos and no followers. It would only make sense to overthrow Ezelcant if personal interest and method diverges, which is not the case even with Zanald.
His ideals weren't the same as everyone else. In order for his pseudo-Destiny plan to work, he apparently couldn't defeat the Federation outright while he had an immense technological superiority over them, instead he had to let them build up their forces over the years and drag the war out for as long as he did. How that was supposed to work, I have no idea...However, there was a big discrepancy between what Ezelcant wanted, and what the rest of the people likely wanted, that if revealed, could cost him everything, including his life.
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Old 2012-09-25, 14:28   Link #185
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Unfortunately that tends to happen in real life wars. The people who start them don't get punished like we wished. Take the Animorphs book series--it didn't end with a huge final battle, one of the heroes was killed and the villain who started it all survived. Tried in court and all, but ultimately was not executed.

On the other hand, Ezelcant IS getting punished in a sense. While he strove to create his ideal Eden, ultimately he was proven that his goals were wrong, and while there was a peace afterwards, his death means he's not able to live and experience that peace.
I'd finally put that frustrating Animorphs ending behind me and you have to remind me, thanks .

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
His ideals weren't the same as everyone else. In order for his pseudo-Destiny plan to work, he apparently couldn't defeat the Federation outright while he had an immense technological superiority over them, instead he had to let them build up their forces over the years and drag the war out for as long as he did. How that was supposed to work, I have no idea...However, there was a big discrepancy between what Ezelcant wanted, and what the rest of the people likely wanted, that if revealed, could cost him everything, including his life.
In the end with politics it doesn't matter what his real ideals were, just what they appeared to be to the public. Long as his ideals appeared to be defeating the Earthlings and taking back 'Eden' the people would follow. Any failures could just be explained by incompetent commanders (sorry Zeheart ) and all being part of the greater plan.

Though in a sense he really would have been screwed without Flit and the Gundam showing up. Without that there would be no way to pretend the Federation could actually hold up against the Vagans.
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Old 2012-09-25, 14:41   Link #186
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
But whatever ambition they have their ultimate goals still aligns - kill some Earthlings and take over Earth, also it's not like they have resources and wealth to fight over within the Vagan homeland plus they are all sitting on the SAME time bomb (Mars Rays, so there's no point just being a tyrant in Vagan homeland when in a few years everyone would be dead), thus I'm not sure how you can even develop factions when the ideals lines up so much - Ezelcant wasn't exactly peace loving nor was he showing weakness against the Earthlings, so usurp him is going to require some really damn good excuse otherwise you are going to get complete chaos and no followers. It would only make sense to overthrow Ezelcant if personal interest and method diverges, which is not the case even with Zanald.
That's all makes total sense, but having the same motivations doesn't rob them of hunger for power and glory. It's seems quite believable that some high-ranking Vagan commanders can decide that they are more worthy of leading their nation than the man who spends most of the time sleeping in the cryo pod. They don't need to have some strong reasons or very divergent opinions to stage a coup, some people are just that hungry for power, look at Zanald again, the man made a grab for power right in the middle of the finale battle. You can't get more power hungry than that.

Also, i would like to note that Ezelcant by following his Eden plan made a lot of questionable form the Vagan POV decisions, like deliberately prolonging the war and leaving Earthers chances to survive, and at some point some of his commanders were bound to notice that something was amiss. I can see it earning Ezelcant scorn and label of "weakling" from some of the more bellicose commanders, and coupled with his constant use of cold sleep it's practically an invitation to try sieze the power.

Last edited by overloard; 2012-09-25 at 14:55.
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Old 2012-09-25, 20:02   Link #187
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Just watched the last three episodes..



I don't want a new gundam show for the next 10 years!!
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Old 2012-09-25, 21:06   Link #188
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Maybe there is a resurgence in Japanese nationalism? After all, there are Class-A war criminals enshrined as deities, and some Japanese believe their war was "righteous" because they were liberating asian countries from white imperialists...you know, by murdering them and treating them worse than the white imperialists...lol
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I think you guys are exaggerating just a tad bit from this show...

If this show was meant to instigate a resurgence in Japanese nationalism, I'd say it failed utterly.

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Many times Japan said they are sorry but they never could face their own history.

The later generations that did not live immediately post surrender probably thought of war as a kid's fight. They punch each other and call a ceasefire and shake hands.

They never could form around their minds their forefathers actions pissed a lot of people off with acts of barbarity that unconditional surrender and defanging their nation was the most humane thing to do for them.

Douglas MacArthur was forgiving of Japan even after what was done to his men and those under his protection.

Again the later generation misunderstands. You forgive but you never forget.

Hence Gundam Age's Understanding Ending is forced without consequences.
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Old 2012-09-25, 21:38   Link #189
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Hence Gundam Age's Understanding Ending is forced without consequences.
I think your association of a fictional show's ending with Japan's past are both overstated and unnecessary. As if there are no other real-life historical examples where this had happened (Stalin, Kim Jung Il, a certain infamous chairman) and as if this had been the only ending ever available in Japanese war fiction.

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Many times Japan said they are sorry but they never could face their own history.
Many times Japan would make an overture, only to be shut down and ridiculed by a certain big country. The said big country would then exploit the incident in the form of political propaganda to further pursuit their demands from Japan and/or advance a domestic agenda. Even though the said big country had been one of the largest recipient of Japanese foreign aid in the past half-century.

Said big country also possess a horrific record of Facing.Their.Own.History, especially with its founder having more blood on his hands than any other national leader in history. Don't kid me.

But I will stop right here, as it would be inappropriate for me to go on.

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Old 2012-09-26, 00:37   Link #190
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Sooo all they had to do was find EXA-DB and instead of making weapons out of it...use it to cure the harmful effects of the Mars Rays thingy. Got it.

What was with Sid combining with the Vegan Gear? Most random thing ever.
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Old 2012-09-26, 01:17   Link #191
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That's all makes total sense, but having the same motivations doesn't rob them of hunger for power and glory. It's seems quite believable that some high-ranking Vagan commanders can decide that they are more worthy of leading their nation than the man who spends most of the time sleeping in the cryo pod. They don't need to have some strong reasons or very divergent opinions to stage a coup, some people are just that hungry for power, look at Zanald again, the man made a grab for power right in the middle of the finale battle. You can't get more power hungry than that.
Although Zanald tried to make a grab for power in the middle of a battle that was more of him against Zeheart rather than Ezelcant (and yeah sorry Zeheart you ARE a failure throughout the series), even then he didn't go full out but merely sort of just chipped away some of Zeheart forces - which suggested he's not completely crazy and does take some factors into consideration (most likely that beating the Feds and taking over Earth were still higher on the list).

The most logical conclusion one can make from that is Ezelcant has a much bigger loyal faction and he also have great support from the non-combatant Vagans. This makes a grab for power extremely difficult because, again, you can't really make a grab for power against someone who is essentially running on the exact same platform of "invade Earth and kill them". Sound bites won't work in this case to win support from anyone.

Quote:
Also, i would like to note that Ezelcant by following his Eden plan made a lot of questionable form the Vagan POV decisions, like deliberately prolonging the war and leaving Earthers chances to survive, and at some point some of his commanders were bound to notice that something was amiss. I can see it earning Ezelcant scorn and label of "weakling" from some of the more bellicose commanders, and coupled with his constant use of cold sleep it's practically an invitation to try sieze the power.
While it could be argued that his Gen 1 plans were a complete failure and a grab would make the most sense then, in the successive generations he made some quite noticeable progress that makes it hard for his opponents to call him out as failures or weak. Again I just find it hard to build a platform to grab power when both platforms are essentially the same and with Ezelcant's front story able to unit the Vagans on a common goal any sort of civil war amongst the Vagans would be hard to justify even for the truly crazies. I mean I don't see how "Ezelcant's war isn't bloody enough, let me show you REAL war" as a good rally cry....
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Old 2012-09-26, 01:33   Link #192
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Sooo all they had to do was find EXA-DB and instead of making weapons out of it...use it to cure the harmful effects of the Mars Rays thingy. Got it.
The system had to be developed by the EXA-DB and the AGE system working in tandem. It wasn't just instantly there.
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Old 2012-09-26, 02:10   Link #193
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Although Zanald tried to make a grab for power in the middle of a battle that was more of him against Zeheart rather than Ezelcant (and yeah sorry Zeheart you ARE a failure throughout the series), even then he didn't go full out but merely sort of just chipped away some of Zeheart forces - which suggested he's not completely crazy and does take some factors into consideration (most likely that beating the Feds and taking over Earth were still higher on the list).

The most logical conclusion one can make from that is Ezelcant has a much bigger loyal faction and he also have great support from the non-combatant Vagans. This makes a grab for power extremely difficult because, again, you can't really make a grab for power against someone who is essentially running on the exact same platform of "invade Earth and kill them". Sound bites won't work in this case to win support from anyone.
Someone should have gone "screw this overcomplicated plan. We're dropping a colony on them before they know they're in a fight." -> it works -> they don't bother waking Ezelcant.
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Old 2012-09-26, 02:13   Link #194
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Of course, dropping a colony would completely negate what they want (an unspoiled, undamaged home planet to return home to), so some extreme options were off the table regardless.
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Old 2012-09-26, 02:35   Link #195
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Sooo all they had to do was find EXA-DB and instead of making weapons out of it...use it to cure the harmful effects of the Mars Rays thingy. Got it.

What was with Sid combining with the Vegan Gear? Most random thing ever.
Well it wasn't explained if it was the portion of the EXA-DB the Vegans had or the EXA-DB which they believed have been destroyed.

The technology to terraform Mars was likely turned to Lost Technology due to the Technos Taboo the Silver Chalice Treaty implemented.

If so the answer to Mars Rays or partial answer has always been in the EXA-DB.

80 years before Ezelcant found the EXA-DB asteroid's location and hacked its database. But they didn't get all of it as Sid found out.
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Old 2012-09-26, 03:12   Link #196
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Of course, dropping a colony would completely negate what they want (an unspoiled, undamaged home planet to return home to), so some extreme options were off the table regardless.
It'd still be a planet full of life and without Mars Rays. Who cares about a bit of cosmetic damage? (And of course, I wasn't truly serious. Dropping smaller rocks on the Fed's industrial centers would work just as well to secure victory.)

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2012-09-26 at 06:49.
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Old 2012-09-26, 06:20   Link #197
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It's still be a planet full of life and without Mars Rays. Who cares about a bit of cosmetic damage? (And of course, I wasn't truly serious. Dropping smaller rocks on the Fed's industrial centers would work just as well to secure victory.)
The dust kicked up by dropping any serious mass of stuff on Earth would cause a nuclear winter aka Char's Counter Attack, not exactly what the Vagans want.
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Old 2012-09-26, 06:23   Link #198
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Although Zanald tried to make a grab for power in the middle of a battle that was more of him against Zeheart rather than Ezelcant (and yeah sorry Zeheart you ARE a failure throughout the series), even then he didn't go full out but merely sort of just chipped away some of Zeheart forces - which suggested he's not completely crazy and does take some factors into consideration (most likely that beating the Feds and taking over Earth were still higher on the list).

The most logical conclusion one can make from that is Ezelcant has a much bigger loyal faction and he also have great support from the non-combatant Vagans. This makes a grab for power extremely difficult because, again, you can't really make a grab for power against someone who is essentially running on the exact same platform of "invade Earth and kill them". Sound bites won't work in this case to win support from anyone.
Zanald had his troops trying to kill officially appointed leader of the nation in the middle of the battle that would decide outcome of the whole war, something that I assume in case of success would have resulted in huge blow to moral of the rest of the Vagan military. In the end it was exactly his mutiny that proved to be Vagan undoing: they had an edge over the Federation in the beginning of the battle thanks to the trick with fake ships, but Zanald's intervention gave Feddies time to recover. Not to mention that because of his actions Kio was able to get away when Zeheart was about to kill him. In any case, if he saw fit to go rogue in such crucial time as final battle without regard for possible consequences, I can totally imagine him trying to dethrone Ezelcant during more "peaceful" time.

The main problem with Ezelcant holding power is that he doesn't appear to actually have loyal faction. There are no Nobles/Aristocracy/Upper classes who benefit from his rule and therefore provide him their support, while civilians are easily influenced and their support doesn't mean much. It's just a single man who somehow managed to subjugate/inspire loyalty to the whole nation. On top of that, he spends years (if not decades) away from politics, instead prolonging his life via cold sleep, yet every time he awakens Vagans continue to happily do his bidding despite the fact there is highly ambitious and arrogant men amongst them who realistically wouldn't be too inclined to obey someone like Ezelcant.

And no, i don't agree that because Vagans sitting on the time bomb they would be afraid of infighting. Their situation is dire, but it's not that dire. They already have been living there for like 200 years, and most likely can live at least 200 more if need be, of course it's not getting better , but I think realistically there still should be enough contenders for the position of Vagan leader, even if they know that power struggle will somehow hamper their military advance on Earth.

Quote:
While it could be argued that his Gen 1 plans were a complete failure and a grab would make the most sense then, in the successive generations he made some quite noticeable progress that makes it hard for his opponents to call him out as failures or weak. Again I just find it hard to build a platform to grab power when both platforms are essentially the same and with Ezelcant's front story able to unit the Vagans on a common goal any sort of civil war amongst the Vagans would be hard to justify even for the truly crazies. I mean I don't see how "Ezelcant's war isn't bloody enough, let me show you REAL war" as a good rally cry....
I can imagine Ezelcant selling "graduate progress" bullshit to civilians, but commanders, who are the ones carrying out his orders, probably must notice that the war is not going the most optimal way, that some orders make little sense, that they are loosing their technological advantage, etc. In this case, obedience can be expected only from the fanatics like Zeheart and Gerra Zoi, but as it turns out, not all Vagan commanders are like that.
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Old 2012-09-26, 06:48   Link #199
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In any case, if he saw fit to go rogue in such crucial time as final battle without regard for possible consequences, I can totally imagine him trying to dethrone Ezelcant during more "peaceful" time.
Except, he just does not like Zeheart.

Quote:
The main problem with Ezelcant holding power is that he doesn't appear to actually have loyal faction.
I don't think that's it. It's more of the opposite; the people are too loyal to him.

Quote:
I can imagine Ezelcant selling "graduate progress" bullshit to civilians, but commanders, who are the ones carrying out his orders, probably must notice that the war is not going the most optimal way, that some orders make little sense, that they are loosing their technological advantage, etc. In this case, obedience can be expected only from the fanatics like Zeheart and Gerra Zoi, but as it turns out, not all Vagan commanders are like that.
There's nothing that says that at all. Zeheart and Gerra Zoi are commanders of their own soldiers; both portrayed to think that all these are according to (Ezelcant's) plan that will eventually lead to Vagan's favour.

Last edited by kakakka; 2012-09-26 at 07:06.
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Old 2012-09-26, 06:54   Link #200
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The dust kicked up by dropping any serious mass of stuff on Earth would cause a nuclear winter aka Char's Counter Attack, not exactly what the Vagans want.
They waited 50 years for Ezelcant to even begin a serious effort. They could have waited a few years for the dust to settle. Heck, they could have done that waiting in colonies in the Earth Sphere, away from the Mars Rays. It's not like displacing a large population wouldn't have taken time anyway.
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