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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 49
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 5 6.58%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 6 7.89%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 5 6.58%
7 out of 10: Good... 10 13.16%
6 out of 10: Average... 12 15.79%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 9 11.84%
4 out of 10: Poor... 8 10.53%
3 out of 10: Bad... 4 5.26%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 6 7.89%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 11 14.47%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-26, 08:18   Link #201
houkoholic
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They waited 50 years for Ezelcant to even begin a serious effort. They could have waited a few years for the dust to settle. Heck, they could have done that waiting in colonies in the Earth Sphere, away from the Mars Rays. It's not like displacing a large population wouldn't have taken time anyway.
Problem is nuclear winters from the dust kicked up will lasts for far more than a few decades (see the meteorite which killed the dinosaurs), plus on top of that it drastically alters the ecosystem on Earth. So this completely goes against the Eden which the Vagans want. Not a viable option even for the crazies because they would lose support from the majority of the Vagans. So unless you have a huge group of crazy Vagans whom just don't give a shit about Earth this won't work.
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Old 2012-09-26, 08:27   Link #202
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I don't think that's it. It's more of the opposite; the people are too loyal to him.
Exactly. And we also see the Vagan citizen basically treating him like a royal. He's good at this support stuff apparently.

One thought came to me - I wonder if it has anything to do with his X Rounder ability being able to influence other X Rounders which gives him not only very loyal but very powerful soldiers (see Zeheart and the other X Rounder forces). This could've been the key to his success.

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There's nothing that says that at all. Zeheart and Gerra Zoi are commanders of their own soldiers; both portrayed to think that all these are according to (Ezelcant's) plan that will eventually lead to Vagan's favour.
Let's approach the question from the other side - whom have we seen which is NOT loyal to Ezlecant in the whole series?
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Old 2012-09-26, 09:26   Link #203
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Let's approach the question from the other side - whom have we seen which is NOT loyal to Ezlecant in the whole series?
Oh that's easy, it's Flit.

Oh wait you mean VEGAN not loyal to Ezelcant? Oh well, that's... No.. wait maybe... Nope I got nothing.
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Old 2012-09-26, 09:35   Link #204
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There was a period of time between when the Vagans first appeared, and when Flit finally built the Gundam where the Federation could not even scratch a Vagan MS with their shitty ass beam guns. Anyone with an ounce of brain would have pressed that advantage and force the Federation to capitulate. Half the force at Ambat would have been enough to crush the Federation back then...

Ezelcant lasted as long as he did in power because the story called for it, not because it made any sense. His plan was ridiculous, it would only fly if people are completely retarded. Conveniently, it took 60 years for a commander to notice something was off with the mission plans, and it just so happens that it was Zeheart, who was so loyal he'd follow the old man in his madness at the cost of everything...

All of this would have been easier to stomach if a) the federation was actually a competent force able to hurt the Vagans early on and b) Ezelcant's plan was different.
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Old 2012-09-26, 10:58   Link #205
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
Except, he just does not like Zeheart.
I don't think that's it. It's more of the opposite; the people are too loyal to him.
I know they are loyal to him, what I'm asking is why. As I stated above, it completely unplausible for him to command such loyalty from his people. No king/tyrant can reign without support of some sort of upper class, relying solely on his oratory skills and charisma. Ezelcant has no means to hold power: he has no support of ruling class (because there is no ruling class), often detaches himself from the state affairs for a very long periods of time (cold sleep sessions), when he is awake, makes rather questionable decisions. His reign seems to be based on unexplainable sense of dog-like loyalty from Vagan people.

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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
One thought came to me - I wonder if it has anything to do with his X Rounder ability being able to influence other X Rounders which gives him not only very loyal but very powerful soldiers (see Zeheart and the other X Rounder forces). This could've been the key to his success.
Unlikely. Most of his X-Rounders ( Decil, majority of M8) are arrogant egocentrical pricks who don't give a flying fuck about Ezelcant plans, goals and ideals, and don't display any signs of brainwashing or indoctrination. Zeheart follows Ezelcant not because he brainwashed by pretty pictures ,but because he is by nature loyal and idealistic and genuinely believes in his words.

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
There was a period of time between when the Vagans first appeared, and when Flit finally built the Gundam where the Federation could not even scratch a Vagan MS with their shitty ass beam guns. Anyone with an ounce of brain would have pressed that advantage and force the Federation to capitulate. Half the force at Ambat would have been enough to crush the Federation back then...

Ezelcant lasted as long as he did in power because the story called for it, not because it made any sense. His plan was ridiculous, it would only fly if people are completely retarded. Conveniently, it took 60 years for a commander to notice something was off with the mission plans, and it just so happens that it was Zeheart, who was so loyal he'd follow the old man in his madness at the cost of everything...

All of this would have been easier to stomach if a) the federation was actually a competent force able to hurt the Vagans early on and b) Ezelcant's plan was different.
Yeah, exactly.

Last edited by overloard; 2012-09-26 at 11:25.
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Old 2012-09-26, 12:10   Link #206
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Problem is nuclear winters from the dust kicked up will lasts for far more than a few decades (see the meteorite which killed the dinosaurs), plus on top of that it drastically alters the ecosystem on Earth. So this completely goes against the Eden which the Vagans want. Not a viable option even for the crazies because they would lose support from the majority of the Vagans. So unless you have a huge group of crazy Vagans whom just don't give a shit about Earth this won't work.
Impact winters don't have to last that long. Depends on how much dust you kick up.

And of course, I used the colony drop because, well, Gundam. My actual point was that any sane commander would have secured a decisive victory early on, instead of waiting for the federation to get on a war footing at all, let alone catch up technologically. And that not even taking into account the senselessness of the mass murder the early Vagans indulged in. They should have just conquered the Earth instead of dicking around slaughtering civilians.

As for changes to the ecosystem... What do the Vagans know? As long as there's still a lot of greenery afterward (and notice how even the impact that killed the dinosaurs didn't turn Earth into a complete desert), it'll be more than good enough for them. They aren't going to be hung up on pandas or whatever species would disappear.
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Old 2012-09-26, 13:16   Link #207
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Originally Posted by overloard View Post
I know they are loyal to him, what I'm asking is why.
Because he has the power centering on the concept of (exaggerated) Mars Tragedy. We don't even know if there's a ruling/upperclass as you mention (or even need one, if Ezelcant controls the wealth and has the central power anyways), or how long he is in deep sleep every time he does. Propaganda can make a fool intelligent when done right. Ezelcant even has military happy under him (with weapons and enemies to use them against).
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Old 2012-09-26, 13:42   Link #208
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Because he has the power centering on the concept of (exaggerated) Mars Tragedy. We don't even know if there's a ruling/upperclass as you mention (or even need one, if Ezelcant controls the wealth and has the central power anyways), or how long he is in deep sleep every time he does. Propaganda can make a fool intelligent when done right. Ezelcant even has military happy under him (with weapons and enemies to use them against).
That's not enough. We don't how much time exactly he spent in cold sleep, but it could be safely assumed to be couple of decades in total at the very least. While he is off, someone has to run the system to ensure everything is going smoothly, and that someone should have some damn good reasons to be doing so, or there might be a temptation to "forget" to wake Ezelcant next time and take over. Ezelcant can't simply run everything by himself. And as it was repeatedly pointed out, realistically military shouldn't be all that happy, because at some point during this 60+ year long war some of the officers would have realized that Ezelcant deliberately holding them back.

Last edited by overloard; 2012-09-26 at 15:23.
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Old 2012-09-26, 14:21   Link #209
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He doesn't need support from nobility because there is no nobility.
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Old 2012-09-26, 17:31   Link #210
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I finally marathoned till the beginning of the second half of Gen3. While the first half was totally enjoyable (marathoning helped a lot), moreso than Gen2 in any case, I was still a little bugged by Kio spouting a bit of nonsense while fighting Zeheart following Shanalua'death.

Then Gen3 second half starts. Watching episode 40 was like suffering an episode of EVOL, shit writing through and through :
- Asemu's character just doesn't make any sense, it's like they just had no idea what to do with him so they made him into some sort of Gary Stu with a bad ass attitude for cool effect.
- Kio NOT killing Vagans, it's funny how it started with those Flit and Kio as new pilots going around killing eveyone without giving a single fuck and in the last quarter it's as if the producers kicked in about how bad it is to have the kid MC killing people in a "kid show" so they went with Kio trying to get the NO KILL ACHIEVEMENT TROPHY.
- Fram is nothing but a Zeheart' mindless fangirl now that he proved her he knew the name of those faggots who died 3 episodes ago, that's even worse than Romary.
- The icing on the cake, Kio who's about to rape Fram throw a winy "let's stop", embarassed silence, total disbelief, event horizon crossed, did I really heard him right? He even repeat it, oh boy.

There's still Flit's desire to wipe out Vagan and the FX unit that are damn nice but I can sense that things are going from bad to worse from now.
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Old 2012-09-26, 18:00   Link #211
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So I've been giving some thought to Zera Gins and his actions in the Vagan Gear and to his previous pod scene with Ezelcant, and I think I may have come to a sort of understanding as to his berserker actions when the SID tried to take over his machine.

He was constantly going on about destroying the Gundams and the Federation ships, right? Attacking his own allies didn't make sense, admittedly, but hey, berserker. Anyways. I recalled that Ezelcant said to his sleeping form that Zeheart had inherited his soul to continue Project Eden, and told Zera that he was to help Zeheart accomplish his goals.

Well, consider what Zeheart's last actions were before his death: his objective in the short term was to destroy the Gundams and the Diva. My guess is that Zera was simply following through on this, trying to accomplish Zeheart's last objective. The idea is strengthened somewhat by how Ocramud and his subordinate believed that Zera could no longer be controlled without Zeheart.

So if that's indeed true, it adds a bit of sense. Could've implemented it better though.
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Old 2012-09-26, 21:39   Link #212
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In terms of why the Vagans didn't take some crazy action (like colony drops, etc), I think the point was symbolism. This is their Eden, their dream home to return to. Even if the damage would be superficial or temporary doing something crazy like that would be tainting their dream. While less efficient taking back Eden with their own hands on the ground and not tainting it could explain them holding back.

It is rather tough to believe them holding back before Flit made the Gundam. They literally had no competition before then. Could have just walked to Earth with a handful of units and taken it. The only possible explanation would be Ezelcant tricking enough people into thinking the Federation was holding back their real strength. That or they simply would be stopped by shear numbers if they forced a major confrontation too early. I don't really buy it, but have to come up with something semi-logical.

I'll say after re-watching the last episode that at least things went alright for Flit. A lot of bizarre things in this episode, but he saw Yurin and everyone he'd lost once again. On top of that he did grow into that savior that protected humanity as a whole. Fell off that train for a lot of the series, but found it in the end.
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Old 2012-09-26, 22:33   Link #213
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So I've been giving some thought to Zera Gins and his actions in the Vagan Gear and to his previous pod scene with Ezelcant, and I think I may have come to a sort of understanding as to his berserker actions when the SID tried to take over his machine.

He was constantly going on about destroying the Gundams and the Federation ships, right? Attacking his own allies didn't make sense, admittedly, but hey, berserker. Anyways. I recalled that Ezelcant said to his sleeping form that Zeheart had inherited his soul to continue Project Eden, and told Zera that he was to help Zeheart accomplish his goals.

Well, consider what Zeheart's last actions were before his death: his objective in the short term was to destroy the Gundams and the Diva. My guess is that Zera was simply following through on this, trying to accomplish Zeheart's last objective. The idea is strengthened somewhat by how Ocramud and his subordinate believed that Zera could no longer be controlled without Zeheart.

So if that's indeed true, it adds a bit of sense. Could've implemented it better though.


I have other theory :

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Originally Posted by Scorpiopt View Post
The All SID vs Vagan Gear scene i have been thinking . wen SID connects to Vagan Gear it glows red , and then it starts to glow green ( same color wen an x-rounder uses its power) .
So could it possible be that SID tried to take over Vagan Gear and it failed due to its pilot's power? and that interaction caused him to run wild ?
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Old 2012-09-26, 23:33   Link #214
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Doesn't really counteract mine. Given the green glow it was almost certain that Zera's X-Rounder power had run wild, like Reina's. I'm merely speculating on WHY he chose to attack the Gundams.
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Old 2012-09-26, 23:50   Link #215
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I'm merely speculating on WHY he chose to attack the Gundams.
Well, that one's easy, because they're the most powerful enemies of the Vagans.
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Old 2012-09-27, 00:48   Link #216
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The entire Zera Grins mess would have been better if it was Zeheart piloting the Vagan Gear in my opinion. The Legilis even has an escape pod ability, instead of killing him off they should have had him escape at the end and then sortie in the Vagan Gear. Then given how he was going insane already, have him fly out of control when SID tries to piggyback the Gear like Girard (heck the entire reason he wore a mask was to limit his powers anyway).

This would have made that entire final battle actually interesting, and Kio has a reason to save the pilot that the viewer can actually sympathise with.
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Old 2012-09-27, 01:08   Link #217
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Unlikely. Most of his X-Rounders ( Decil, majority of M8) are arrogant egocentrical pricks who don't give a flying fuck about Ezelcant plans, goals and ideals, and don't display any signs of brainwashing or indoctrination.
Who said Ezelcant must use his ideals to sway the crazies like Decil? Indeed with Ezelcant fooling every single one of the Vagans from his true Project Eden since god knows how long it's only reasonable that he would lie some more to win over the crazies too. He could've offered them unrestricted power to have their "fun killing" with no superior supervision as long as they pledge loyalty to him alone, that would even explain how Decil got his front line commanding position in Gen 1.

Also do we know for a fact that those X Rounder images Ezelcant projects must be the truth inside Ezelcant's mind aka Newtype communication? I would think it's the opposite here because if those images actually reflects Ezelcant's true motives Zeheart would've known a long time ago that Ezelcant was screwing with all the Vagans. So the only conclusion is that Ezelcant must be able to control what gets projected in those images and that X Rounder projection is NOT the same as Newtype communication (or the other numerous copies we've seen in Gundam). He could really use that to his advantages when trying to persuade X Rounder crazies like Decil - maybe project a different image (a warzone where the Vagans kills all the Earthlings perhaps, which btw is not even a lie within Ezelcant's plans, just half-truth) and even use a bit of X Rounder pressure (we know Ezelcant is one of the stronger X Rounders) to get them to submit. There's many ways Ezelcant could have achieve this, and since he's hardly a straight player (he's been fooling the Vagans for so long in a plan that would kill a lot of them as well), lying to get what he wants can't be off his play book.

Quote:
Zeheart follows Ezelcant not because he brainwashed by pretty pictures ,but because he is by nature loyal and idealistic and genuinely believes in his words.
Yet can you claim that those pretty pictures which Ezelcant shows him since young has absolutely no influence over his loyalty?
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Old 2012-09-27, 02:39   Link #218
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Well, it becomes easier to become loyal to a guy if you honestly wish to make the dream he shows you (which as we know isn't exactly the same as his own dream) a reality.


Maybe the reason the invasion was at such a low gear at the start of the story was because they hadn't built up enough military forces yet, and the Gen1 baddies were just the advance guard.
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Old 2012-09-27, 05:40   Link #219
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Who said Ezelcant must use his ideals to sway the crazies like Decil? Indeed with Ezelcant fooling every single one of the Vagans from his true Project Eden since god knows how long it's only reasonable that he would lie some more to win over the crazies too. He could've offered them unrestricted power to have their "fun killing" with no superior supervision as long as they pledge loyalty to him alone, that would even explain how Decil got his front line commanding position in Gen 1.

Also do we know for a fact that those X Rounder images Ezelcant projects must be the truth inside Ezelcant's mind aka Newtype communication? I would think it's the opposite here because if those images actually reflects Ezelcant's true motives Zeheart would've known a long time ago that Ezelcant was screwing with all the Vagans. So the only conclusion is that Ezelcant must be able to control what gets projected in those images and that X Rounder projection is NOT the same as Newtype communication (or the other numerous copies we've seen in Gundam). He could really use that to his advantages when trying to persuade X Rounder crazies like Decil - maybe project a different image (a warzone where the Vagans kills all the Earthlings perhaps, which btw is not even a lie within Ezelcant's plans, just half-truth) and even use a bit of X Rounder pressure (we know Ezelcant is one of the stronger X Rounders) to get them to submit. There's many ways Ezelcant could have achieve this, and since he's hardly a straight player (he's been fooling the Vagans for so long in a plan that would kill a lot of them as well), lying to get what he wants can't be off his play book.
I don't know, why do he even need to sway or persuade psychopaths into following him if they will be doing what is required from them anyway? If he needs to groom bunch of ruthless murderers, there is no need for X-Rounding influence, simple arrogance and special treatment will do the trick. And it's not like Decil and M8 exhibit excessive personal loyalty to Ezelcant, on the contrary, they constantly ignore or outright go against orders of Ezelcant's representative (Zeheart), hindering implementation of the plan, and generally seem to have no regard for his cause whatsoever.


Quote:
Yet can you claim that those pretty pictures which Ezelcant shows him since young has absolutely no influence over his loyalty?
The pictures certainly did have influence on Zeheart, but it's not kind of influence you are talking about. By showing this shit to young Zeheart Ezelcant inspired awe and admiration in him, which coupled with influence of his role as adoptive father led to development of unshakable loyalty. But I'm pretty sure he didn't dominate Zeheart's mind into submission via brainwaves or whatever they use, and otherwise didn't mess with his brain in any way. Not to mention that there was no evidence that X-Rounders even capable of influencing other people's minds.

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Maybe the reason the invasion was at such a low gear at the start of the story was because they hadn't built up enough military forces yet, and the Gen1 baddies were just the advance guard.
It's unlikely. Vagan technological superiority in the beginning of the war was immense, and they even had advantage of surprise. They had more than enough forces in Ambat to completely eradicate Federation military, hell, at that time squad of Gafrans probably was sufficient force to eradicate whole Federation military.

Last edited by overloard; 2012-09-27 at 06:57.
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Old 2012-09-27, 12:01   Link #220
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Well, those things still need maintenance and such.

Don't get me wrong I'm just making stuff up that maybe allows it to be slightly more believable. It doesn't make the writing any less bad.
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