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Old 2012-09-28, 00:52   Link #801
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
But the Japanese nationalists are trying to resurrect it.....
Do we really care what nationalists say?

Heck, dislike of those types are exactly the reason why many of us on this thread is rooting for the failure of GOP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Oh dear! A small portion of the population has always held that particular notion. Romney's 47% statement brought into the clear view of how "off-hand" (in his own words) and callous such statement can be. If the Republican party continues to associate with that small group of people who think in those terms, we can very well say that the party is going to be slowly out of commission and choke itself out. I, for one, sincerely hope that you will never have to find out for yourself about the circumstance of what lead a person to be that poor so he/she needs to rely on things like food stamps, housing, etc to sustain themselve, or why they can't take advantage of the "benefits available" to them. While the system isn't perfect and certainly needs a few dialogue to sort out the entitlement issues, a party cannot survive when it wants to work for only selective fews.
In fact, wasn't like 1/3+ of the 47% the retired elderly?
Which is odd considering that fair amount of his own supporters fall in that 47% he called "entitled".
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Old 2012-09-28, 00:56   Link #802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Being "anti-religion" does not equal "racism". One is an idea, the other a skin pigment.
Actually "racism" is a broader term that does cover anti-religion sentiment (besides anti-cultural sentiment, with which it often overlaps). Yes, anti-religious in general, not simply anti-particular religion. Think again, what about several freethinkers condemning the barbaric practices of "male genital mutilation" and ritual slaughter ? It's definitely racist to consider the very existence that is religion backward. This is out of topic however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I did mean it that way.
I find many of these monarchs to be brash about their reactions, you did not read that wrong at all.
It has nothing to do with their race, it has everything to do with their position and beliefs.
(and political agendas, I'm sure)

So if I say I dislike Christian Politicians such as Santorium for their backward beliefs, does that make me a racist?
Because I do. If that labels me a racist, then so be it.



If it makes you feel any better, I find religious leaders in general to portray the exact same behavior. Religious leaders with political powers, that is.
Morocco and Jordan reacted fairly competent towards Arab Spring because both are headed by prestigious dynasties with long history of political experience, as opposed to Gulf petty fiefdoms which are under the patronage of The Saudi Tsardom, all of them new comers located in historically backwater region. Both cases are shaped by their respective historical discourses, so yeah, sweeping generalization simply never helps in discussion except for laid-back comedic irony.

Religious leaders with political powers are definitely in position to cause problems and even disasters, I agree.
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:01   Link #803
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Oh hey look, few good apples makes the entire batch of rotten apples taste good.

Dude, don't go there. You're treading into strawman territory.
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:05   Link #804
Ridwan
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Pointing which one is orange and which one is apple isn't pulling a strawman.

I don't think you're racist. I just think you lack the patience necessary to indulge in political discussions like this.
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Last edited by Ridwan; 2012-09-28 at 01:17.
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:06   Link #805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
"divine right of kings" rubbish and theocracy in general -> to dustbin of history eventually
Inapplicable to Southwest Asia. That's mainly an European concept.


I'm going to have to outright say you're not really helping yourself by ignoring reality on the ground and talking in concepts which are limited to a small portion of the world. That is not a stance one should have when talking in general terms.
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:11   Link #806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
I don't think you're racist. I just think you lack the patience necessary to indulge in political discussions like this.
Condensending labeling is much better for political discussions?
In fact, I think Romney actually agrees!

At least this isn't a "secret private videotaping"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
Pointing which one is orange and which one is apple isn't pulling a strawman.
Err, that makes no sense.
I'm saying, monarch is backwards system, and majority of them suck.
You're saying "there are good ones too!"
Which I agree, I'm not saying they're all bad. But few good apples amongst crapton of bads does not make the whole concept good.
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:28   Link #807
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Homer Simpson votes for Romney:



Had a good laugh? Good!, because this video will make your blood boil like never before:



And this one is the cherry on top:

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Last edited by Sugetsu; 2012-09-28 at 01:39.
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:30   Link #808
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Condensending labeling is much better for political discussions?
In fact, I think Romney actually agrees!

At least this isn't a "secret private videotaping"



Err, that makes no sense.
I'm saying, monarch is backwards system, and majority of them suck.
You're saying "there are good ones too!"
Which I agree, I'm not saying they're all bad. But few good apples amongst crapton of bads does not make the whole concept good.
And 'm saying that monarchy isn't a backward system by default simply for being a monarchy. So yes, you're doing a sweeping generalization towards monarchy, which has been often mistakenly understood so narrowly. It doesn't have to be autocratic, religious, family/clan-centered, or even without terms limits ! Every single case of monarchy depends crucially on the specific condition they are in, and that applies with Arab Spring case.
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:35   Link #809
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Inapplicable to Southwest Asia. That's mainly an European concept.


I'm going to have to outright say you're not really helping yourself by ignoring reality on the ground and talking in concepts which are limited to a small portion of the world. That is not a stance one should have when talking in general terms.
Please support your assertion for how theocratic concepts for governing are "not applicable" to large portions of the planet. "Divine right of kings" is not exclusively European but has close parallels in many regions of the world, do I have to list them all?
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:36   Link #810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
And 'm saying that monarchy isn't a backward system by default simply for being a monarchy. So yes, you're doing a sweeping generalization towards monarchy, which has been often mistakenly understood so narrowly. It doesn't have to be autocratic, religious, family/clan-centered, or even without terms limits !
Well then, we simply disagree.
I prefer electorial democracy, you like monarchy and I don't.

Hell, you probably drink the blood of a virgin from a golden goblet while using a peasant as your footrest!
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:48   Link #811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Inapplicable to Southwest Asia. That's mainly an European concept.
Nuh-uh, it's quite universal. Not in European terms, maybe, but the model fits.

The Hashemites of Jordan and the Alaouites of Morocco both claim their legitimacy from their descent from the Prophet Muhammad. As close to divine right as it gets.

Ironically it is that prestige which allows them the leeway to contain their extremists and create moderate monarchies. Combined with historical circumstances that made them early and constant allies of the West, and they don't need to be as nasty as the rest. Good for King Abdullah, he can now slowly back out into the comfort and security of a true constitutional monarch.

Of course, on the other hand, hardcore theocracies like Iran or the Wahhabi Al-Sauds can go burn in the fires of their precious hell.

Saying Islamic leaders are shite is hardly racist. They are largely shite, through no fault of the Qur'an or Semitic racial characteristics, mind (that's just bullshit and nobody's saying that here), but because they're a bunch of asshole oppressors. Secular post-Nasserist dictators, Iranian theocratic clerics, Saudi/Gulf sheikhs with their fabulous oil wealth...the new generation of democrats, Islam-based or not, won't have to do much not to be worse, though there will be much work before they can really call themselves better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir
And 'm saying that monarchy isn't a backward system by default simply for being a monarchy.
As a democrat (not the big D), that's what aohige believes. As an admirer of liberté, egalité, fraternité, I agree. All kings should hang wherever they're found, except the decent ones, and they better remain decent or they can go hang too.

No racism here, just honest republicanism. And why the hell not? Why are kings kings, and why should I be loyal to oppressors and children of oppressors? Tradition is only worth the good it can bring, nothing more.

And as a secularist, religion can indeed go make love to itself. I study religions, even read the annotated Qur'an (quite an interesting book of poetry, that one), because they're quite interesting. Because I'm a historian not a philosopher I'm not particularly concerned with bashing religion to establish my worldview. But, in my secular politics, God can shove off. Not saying you can't believe, or that I'll look down on anyone for just believing, but I quite object to having other people's beliefs being used as the foundation of a society I live in.
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:54   Link #812
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post

In fact, wasn't like 1/3+ of the 47% the retired elderly?
Which is odd considering that fair amount of his own supporters fall in that 47% he called "entitled".
The 47% boggles the mind even more if we take into account of the disabled veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Old 2012-09-28, 02:10   Link #813
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Please support your assertion for how theocratic concepts for governing are "not applicable" to large portions of the planet. "Divine right of kings" is not exclusively European but has close parallels in many regions of the world, do I have to list them all?
She's just saying that the centuries-long wrestle between Roman Catholic Kraken and multinational warlord aristocracy across European continent has had no parallel elsewhere. I do agree that conflicts between political elites and religious clergy has been a universal phenomenon.

@aohige : Heck, I don't even type my posts. My christian slaves do that for me

@Irenicus : Ideological narratives should never dictate academic understanding. Kings and Queens can have no temporal power and still function in some way or another like in UK, Japan, Scandinavia, and many other living examples accross the world. And when they do pose political power, it needs not to be infinite either. Monarchy doesn't automatically translate into autocratic tyranny, just as much as Republic doesn't automatically mean a proper democratic universal suffrage which upholds human rights.

I'm definitely all for liberal secularism. But I'm against Turkish and French laicitism because non-interference between state and religion should be mutual, instead one sided.
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Old 2012-09-28, 02:15   Link #814
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UK and Japan ain't monarchy.
You know that's not what we're talking about.
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Old 2012-09-28, 02:30   Link #815
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
Ideological narratives should never dictate academic understanding.
Not quite sure where you'd get the impression that I would allow otherwise. I'm not writing Marxist histories of the world here or anything.

Quote:
Kings and Queens can have no temporal power and still function in some way or another like in UK, Japan, Scandinavia, and many other living examples accross the world.
As aohige mentioned, we're not talking about constitutional monarchies where the powerless, symbolic head of state just happens to be monarchs. They can do whatever they want, I'm not so radical as to demand their heads, even if they're rich playboys and unfaithful to their girlfriends or something. I'm not buying into the glamour either, but eh live and let live.

Monarchs with power, however, better behave. Just the same as I would call for the deposition of Gaddafi or Assad or diss the PRC, having a crown doesn't matter one bit to me if you're an asshole and an oppressor.

Quote:
But I'm against Turkish and French laicitism because non-interference between state and religion should be mutual, instead one sided.
I'm not quite as radical as the Kemalists, but sometimes I see their point. I mean, here in the United States [FINALLY BACK ON TOPIC, sorry mods ], despite being quite fully assimilated and not feeling particularly oppressed, it grates on me sometimes with how many "God's" there are in our politics. Politicians pay lip service to God because to many of our electorate, to not do so is a suicidal omission.

When it's just lip service alone I don't mind too much, but this 2012 election, despite the paramount importance of the economy issue and the urgency of the international situation, sometimes feel like God vs. Laicité with the battles over many social issues, and I know where I stand.

As an aside, I never ever did truly swear the Oath of Allegiance in its entirety, because of an annoying little phrase some McCarthyists put in there. Not that I don't like the USA, it's quite a charming place and closest I've got to a home, but it's quite convenient sometimes to be as conditionally patriotic as I want.
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Old 2012-09-28, 03:29   Link #816
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@aohige : Yes they are. There's a fine line indeed between the supposed pair of anti-thesises.

@Irenicus : Absolute monarchies are dangerous no doubt. It's just absolute monarchy isn't the only variant of monarchy there is.

I can see the problem with US. While being a secular country, religion gets politicized waaaay too much, and that's bad. But something like Kemalist laicitism will only politicize religion further, and I really hope such won't take place in US.
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Old 2012-09-28, 03:43   Link #817
Ithekro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
The 47% boggles the mind even more if we take into account of the disabled veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Probably because most of those, the elderly, and some of the Southerns and rural folks believe they earned their share (probably did) and thus while they likely consider themselves poor, they don't think of themselves as part of the 47%. They think those are the bums, homeless, the immigrants (legal or not to some, but mostly the illegals), and the inner city folk. Most of the Republican poor would think the 47% are in urban areas (which usually vote Democrat), not the ones living in rural areas or the suburban areas that have taken over what use to be rural areas as the cities expand.
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Old 2012-09-28, 04:01   Link #818
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Romney's "47%" remark, and remarks like it, is the dark side of meritocratic ideology. If you believe that society rewards those who are the smartest and most driven (IE are "the best") then ultimately you believe the reverse as well, IE that the people at the bottom are there due to their own faults and general stupidity.

One thing you can say for the more aristocratic rich of the past is that they had a lot more empathy for the poor, because they understood that they were rich and the other poor due to random events (what vagina they popped out of).
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Old 2012-09-28, 04:44   Link #819
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
@aohige : Yes they are. There's a fine line indeed between the supposed pair of anti-thesises.
No, we're not.

But I won't play the silly race card and call you out for something you're obviously not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
@Irenicus : Absolute monarchies are dangerous no doubt. It's just absolute monarchy isn't the only variant of monarchy there is.
Exactly where do you draw the line? Wherever you feel like?

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Probably because most of those, the elderly, and some of the Southerns and rural folks believe they earned their share (probably did) and thus while they likely consider themselves poor, they don't think of themselves as part of the 47%. They think those are the bums, homeless, the immigrants (legal or not to some, but mostly the illegals), and the inner city folk. Most of the Republican poor would think the 47% are in urban areas (which usually vote Democrat), not the ones living in rural areas or the suburban areas that have taken over what use to be rural areas as the cities expand.
If that's the case, that's pretty skewed image they have of the majority that takes up the 47% = the low income families.
Even though there are plenty of minorities in that base, it's still majority blue-collar white the last I checked.

It seem like they can continuously insult their own support base, and somehow have them elude the fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Romney's "47%" remark, and remarks like it, is the dark side of meritocratic ideology. If you believe that society rewards those who are the smartest and most driven (IE are "the best") then ultimately you believe the reverse as well, IE that the people at the bottom are there due to their own faults and general stupidity.

One thing you can say for the more aristocratic rich of the past is that they had a lot more empathy for the poor, because they understood that they were rich and the other poor due to random events (what vagina they popped out of).
I agree that more skilled, intelligent, and hard working should be rewarded.
But isn't the higher income not already the said reward? The tax favortism seems to be simply compiling the problem.
Of course, the above question isn't directed to you, or even the GOP. It's to the supporters who are blinded by their own treatment.
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Old 2012-09-28, 05:31   Link #820
Ithekro
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I seem to recall it was a standard in the post-Recostruction South. The dirt poor white family was basically on the bottom, but could feel superior to any black family...even if the black family was actually better off, because of the rules and pecking order. Some of those rules, while gone in name and law, still exist in spirit in some of those places. Mostly because it hasn't been all that long since the Federal Government stomped those laws out (a generation or two, as that was the 1960s).


Oh and some still consider a Constitutional Monarchy as a monarchy...because it does have a king or queen. The head of state for all Commonwealth nations is still Queen Elizabeth II if I remember correctly. At least her head is on the currency still.
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