AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-09-27, 06:35   Link #61
Masuzu
ヒーロー
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: キセキの世代
Great chapter, why did Kishi have to make me like the Zetsus...
__________________
Masuzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 07:56   Link #62
Artimus_Prime
The First Rasengan!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
In other words, he was being Tobi at the time, not Madara. What matters is that, to the audience, he was most certainly Tobi. Only later did he impersonate Madara. And that's kind of beside the point, because who says he can't impersonate Madara with short hair? How many readers held onto the belief that he was "Old Madara" beneath that mask despite the short hair?

That's not true. Kishi changed the style of his characters post time skip. Not just hair, but clothing as well. Not everything about a character's design must remain constant. Change in clothing or hair can reflect growth, maturation, or simply a different time period.

Tobi changed his hairstyle. But should we ignore the fact that he also changed his clothes and mask? When Tobi switched from the Spiral mask to the Sharinnegan mask, was it logical to conclude that there was a different person behind each of those masks? If it's one person per hairstyle, doesn't it follow that it's one person per mask as well?

Sorry. I do not understand this fixation with Tobi's hair.
-being with twist.

In the translation I read, it seems that there is a third Zetsu that located Rin and Kakashi. Could they be talking about Black Zetsu?
In the translation I read, obito specifically asks, where's the other white one and they said he was outside spying
__________________
Mokujin Rasengan
Artimus_Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 09:33   Link #63
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
In other words, he was being Tobi at the time, not Madara. What matters is that, to the audience, he was most certainly Tobi. Only later did he impersonate Madara. And that's kind of beside the point, because who says he can't impersonate Madara with short hair? How many readers held onto the belief that he was "Old Madara" beneath that mask despite the short hair?
i think you missed my point. to nagato, konan and itachi he was being madara. those are the major players in akatsuki. people like deidara didnt really matter to tobi and were just pawns in akatsuki basically. he can impersonate madara with short hair. but if he already did it with long hair, why would he switch it up? doesn't make sense

Quote:
That's not true. Kishi changed the style of his characters post time skip. Not just hair, but clothing as well. Not everything about a character's design must remain constant. Change in clothing or hair can reflect growth, maturation, or simply a different time period.
right, he changed their styles to reflect a growth or change in character. therefore something must have happened to reflect a growth or change in obito for him to have cut his hair. that or it's a different person.

Quote:
Tobi changed his hairstyle. But should we ignore the fact that he also changed his clothes and mask? When Tobi switched from the Spiral mask to the Sharinnegan mask, was it logical to conclude that there was a different person behind each of those masks? If it's one person per hairstyle, doesn't it follow that it's one person per mask as well?
nope. the changing of the mask is significant too. it just doesn't strike me as signifying a different person as much as hair does. when he changed to rinnegan mask he not only changed via gaining rinnegan but he changed intent in that he wasn't lurking in the shadows anymore. he took the offensive and started the war. thats a major change both physically and mentally and it was accompanied by a new mask.

Quote:
In the translation I read, it seems that there is a third Zetsu that located Rin and Kakashi. Could they be talking about Black Zetsu?
in the one i read it was stated that this 3rd zetsu was another white one
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 11:59   Link #64
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
He changed his spiral mask to hide his face, into a rinnegan mask that also protects his head like a helmet. Basically it means he is "truly ready for battle".
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 12:04   Link #65
Hiking_Bear
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i think you missed my point. to nagato, konan and itachi he was being madara. those are the major players in akatsuki. people like deidara didnt really matter to tobi and were just pawns in akatsuki basically. he can impersonate madara with short hair. but if he already did it with long hair, why would he switch it up? doesn't make sense
It does make sense. Why must Tobi's hairstyle have any bearing on his ability to fool Itachi, Nagato or Konan? The point is that the character has no motive to either cut or grow out his hair. So why focus on it all? The real motive is the author's motivation. Looking at it from that perspective, the change in hairstyles makes perfect sense. To the reader, Tobi is just Tobi initially. Only later is he "Madara". When Tobi begins telling his flashback stories of Madara, he is shown with long hair. This is to sell us on the idea that Tobi is Madara. And apparently Kishi's trick worked on many. The changing hairstyles do have a reason. But it's the author's reason, not Obito's.

Quote:
right, he changed their styles to reflect a growth or change in character. therefore something must have happened to reflect a growth or change in obito for him to have cut his hair. that or it's a different person.
It was never logical to conclude that Tobi was two different people, especially since it was pointed out that Kisame recognized both long-haired and short-haired Tobi as the same person. So, let's conclude that Obito's change in appearance reflects growth or different periods in his life. Then, what exactly is the inconsistency on Kishi's part?

Quote:
nope. the changing of the mask is significant too. it just doesn't strike me as signifying a different person as much as hair does. when he changed to rinnegan mask he not only changed via gaining rinnegan but he changed intent in that he wasn't lurking in the shadows anymore. he took the offensive and started the war. thats a major change both physically and mentally and it was accompanied by a new mask.
The point is that a different mask does not imply that we have a totally different character. And without other supporting evidence to back it up, hair does not imply it either.
__________________
Whenever someone writes the word "probably", I read it as "possibly, but not likely"
Hiking_Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 14:11   Link #66
Suika-Esper
Sage Mode
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
the kyuubi and others thought it was the real Madara (Zetsu can become someone else so that nobody can sense any difference).
This begs the question, why didn't Madara just make Zetsu clones of himself before he got so old? He wouldn't have needed Obito to carry on his wishes.
__________________
Suika-Esper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 14:49   Link #67
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Thinking... if Madara transferred his memories to Obito via tsukuyomi it wouldn't be too surprising that a being who has 10-15 years of "Obito memories" and at least 80 years of Madara would end up thinking of themselves as closer to Madara then Obito.

Tho in the end it doesn't have to mean much. The Kages of a given village are somewhat supposed to be in continuity and continue on the will of their predecessors. Madara would've done the same with his followers. Your choice : a bunch of living and talking plants or Obito.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 16:06   Link #68
b1gdawg
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX_COLA_POWER! View Post
And people defend this mind you, plus the fuel shown in this chapter of him fawning over Rin to the point of taking Kakashi out of the picture. You know Naruto wasn't THIS creepily obsessed with Sakura, but no, people will still defend Obito as the tragic little Naruto clone who just didn't get his way and his revenge being justified in every way because he is an Uchiha and nothing more, as decreed by the Uchiharem.
Thank you! And i couldn't have said it better.
b1gdawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 16:09   Link #69
Ero-Senn1n
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suika-Esper View Post
This begs the question, why didn't Madara just make Zetsu clones of himself before he got so old? He wouldn't have needed Obito to carry on his wishes.
Zetsu clones are weak, we see that in this war. Maybe Madara made some clones that carried out some tasks where they don't need to fight against serious enemies, for example looking after Nagato and random spying missions.
Ero-Senn1n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 17:47   Link #70
Alchemist007
自分のチームにいるよ。
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
But the whole plan of obtaining the 1st hokage's cells/DNA happened decades before Orochimaru existed. Well, at least it seems that Madara's knowledge of how to properly combine the cells with his own body isn't on Orochimaru's level. Maybe he obtained the rinnegan eye being attached to some kind of 1st hokage DNA machine instead of upgrading his body as Kabuto did when he summoned Madara. So it was not only life support but also a machine that injects the DNA needed for the rinnegan transformation.
I'm just expecting Oro to appear behind the present Obito and Madara and be like "gotcha bitch!" and take over their bodies or something.
__________________
Alchemist007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 19:48   Link #71
Kowai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SURREY
Age: 25
Blind post (idk if it's been said) but zetsu = the symiobote from spiderman and Tobi = venom
__________________
sharingan is boring... and sasuke is a bish
Kowai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 21:11   Link #72
Artimus_Prime
The First Rasengan!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
It was never logical to conclude that Tobi was two different people, especially since it was pointed out that Kisame recognized both long-haired and short-haired Tobi as the same person. So, let's conclude that Obito's change in appearance reflects growth or different periods in his life. Then, what exactly is the inconsistency on.
The madara that met kisame was the real deal
__________________
Mokujin Rasengan
Artimus_Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-28, 05:54   Link #73
solidguy
I'm not a tumor
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In the dreams of beautiful women
Age: 21
maybe madara was the one that was wearing the zetsu when fighting minato. kishi can't just have minato assume that tobi is madara and make him look like a fool. he is the dumbledore of naruto, he planned naruto's entire life path out.
solidguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-28, 07:08   Link #74
Artimus_Prime
The First Rasengan!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidguy View Post
maybe madara was the one that was wearing the zetsu when fighting minato. kishi can't just have minato assume that tobi is madara and make him look like a fool. he is the dumbledore of naruto, he planned naruto's entire life path out.
You would have to account for the right eye that real madara doesn't have. Then ok maybe he found one, but kamui was in effect so he stole/borrowed obitos eye? Even ignoring the damages left arm real madara is unlikely in my opinion. A further out thought is that obito donned another zetsu suit. This time the suit had hair LOL. Another option is zetsu clone but we had witnessed these clones unable to use signature moves plus they revert back to clones after a major hit. I wanna say that masked guy was obito jus need sum clarification on that left arm damage...
__________________
Mokujin Rasengan

Last edited by Artimus_Prime; 2012-09-28 at 07:47.
Artimus_Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-28, 08:30   Link #75
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
The real motive is the author's motivation. Looking at it from that perspective, the change in hairstyles makes perfect sense. To the reader, Tobi is just Tobi initially. Only later is he "Madara". When Tobi begins telling his flashback stories of Madara, he is shown with long hair. This is to sell us on the idea that Tobi is Madara. And apparently Kishi's trick worked on many. The changing hairstyles do have a reason. But it's the author's reason, not Obito's.
but the readers already bought that tobi was madara before they saw him with long hair in those flashbacks. your logic works both ways. if tobi didn't need long hair to convince other characters, then he didnt need long hair to convince the readers. i can see what you're saying as being a possible outcome though.

Quote:
It was never logical to conclude that Tobi was two different people, especially since it was pointed out that Kisame recognized both long-haired and short-haired Tobi as the same person. So, let's conclude that Obito's change in appearance reflects growth or different periods in his life. Then, what exactly is the inconsistency on Kishi's part?
as long as there is some kind of reason for obito cutting his hair short i will most likely be satisfied. i just dont want kishi to gloss over it like it didnt mean anything. also i think it was logical (not anymore of course) to assume it was 2 people. kisame could have been fooled with a genjutsu fairly easily. he was itachi's bitch afterall since he couldn't handle the sharingan

Quote:
The point is that a different mask does not imply that we have a totally different character. And without other supporting evidence to back it up, hair does not imply it either.
true, but i do like reasons for things. even in reality there is a reason when someone with long hair cuts their hair short, whether it be external, internal or both. they dont just do it for no reason. in literature, things like that should carry even more weight
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-28, 12:11   Link #76
Hiking_Bear
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
but the readers already bought that tobi was madara before they saw him with long hair in those flashbacks. your logic works both ways. if tobi didn't need long hair to convince other characters, then he didnt need long hair to convince the readers. i can see what you're saying as being a possible outcome though.
Convincing readers is not the same thing as convincing characters. The author has complete control over what his characters think; that's not the case with the readers.

Quote:
also i think it was logical (not anymore of course) to assume it was 2 people. kisame could have been fooled with a genjutsu fairly easily. he was itachi's bitch afterall since he couldn't handle the sharingan
Actually, this is known as backwards or reverse reasoning. You start with the conclusion - that Tobi is two people - and then work backwards to fabricate a possible explanation for Kisame's reaction that would fit the predetermined conclusion. Careful with this. A logical conclusion is one that starts with known facts and evidence and then bases a conclusion off of them.
__________________
Whenever someone writes the word "probably", I read it as "possibly, but not likely"
Hiking_Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-28, 18:10   Link #77
solidguy
I'm not a tumor
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In the dreams of beautiful women
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
You would have to account for the right eye that real madara doesn't have. Then ok maybe he found one, but kamui was in effect so he stole/borrowed obitos eye? Even ignoring the damages left arm real madara is unlikely in my opinion. A further out thought is that obito donned another zetsu suit. This time the suit had hair LOL. Another option is zetsu clone but we had witnessed these clones unable to use signature moves plus they revert back to clones after a major hit. I wanna say that masked guy was obito jus need sum clarification on that left arm damage...
I used to care about little details like that, but after the past few chapters I've come to the conclusion that kishi cares little about continuity of the hints that he has dropped, or that I/we read too much into them.
solidguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-28, 18:33   Link #78
dagr81
The legendary dragoon
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
what if mandra gave zetsue chakra to copy him then had obit go into zetsue like he did now?
that way karima thinks it mandra but its obit within zetsue?
dagr81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-29, 10:41   Link #79
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
Quote:
what if mandra gave zetsue chakra to copy him then had obit go into zetsue like he did now?
that way karima thinks it mandra but its obit within zetsue?
I see.. O.o ..Um what?
__________________
A not-so-average Umineko gameboard
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-29, 11:08   Link #80
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Convincing readers is not the same thing as convincing characters. The author has complete control over what his characters think; that's not the case with the readers.
that is true, but when characters are convinced of something it needs due reason as well. kishi can make his characters think whatever he wants, but it still has to make sense to the readers that they were convinced with a proper reason. in other words, be it characters or readers, the reason must be pretty sound. there wasn't much of a reason to doubt tobi being madara back before we saw him with long hair. i always thought that he would be at least partly madara which looks to be turning true

Quote:
Actually, this is known as backwards or reverse reasoning. You start with the conclusion - that Tobi is two people - and then work backwards to fabricate a possible explanation for Kisame's reaction that would fit the predetermined conclusion. Careful with this. A logical conclusion is one that starts with known facts and evidence and then bases a conclusion off of them.
not really. assuming hair would grow that fast and be cut for no reason isn't very logical thinking. i assumed back when i thought tobi was 2 people, that obito wouldn't even have had time to grow his hair that long. i still think its impossible even though it looks like it happened.

the hair thing doesn't make sense to me at all which is why i harp on it still. look at it like this:

obito grows hair long in madara's chamber while training
obito cuts hair to fight minato
obito grows hair long again while playing mizukage and to meet itachi for the uchiha slaughter
obito cuts hair again before he officially joins akatuki as tobi

does that make sense to you? it doesn't to me. the biggest problem is the short hair vs minato. but it also makes no sense to ditch the long hair when still playing madara
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
weekly spoiler discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.