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Old 2012-09-28, 08:02   Link #21
Sumeragi
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Not sure if you got the premise of that novel correctly. It's about a future where otaku "culture" has become mainstream with writing being done in internet slang style (avoiding kanji as much as possible) and incest literature being the most popular genre. Add in time travel and changing of the "present" (the characters' present, which is our future), and we have a wacky story worth of a Sumeragi-SaintessHeart romance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
* - I wouldn't mind having a little sister to teach me kanji like that. In return, I can teach her anything else....
Onii-chan~ Sume can teach you kanji. What will you teach me?
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Old 2012-09-28, 08:12   Link #22
Proto
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I don't have the numbers to prove this, most of this is from experience. As for my peers finding their place as pop-product consumers? Sure.

Annecdotes do not make data. But just making a small thought experiment, consider than in the past:

-Literacy rates around the world were way, way lower.
-Mortality rates were way up.
-Access to information or books in general was restricted to a few elite.

And it wouldn't be a stretch to see that just going by sheer numbers nowadays we are doing way better than, say, the world as a whole 300 years ago.
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Old 2012-09-28, 08:14   Link #23
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
While Agatha Christie was indeed prolific, I see her popularity waning. While Conan Doyle is still going strong, Christie is no as prevalent in the popular conciousness. For one thing, while Christie adaptations were extremely frequent on television in my youth, today they exist only as reruns.

Not only that, but Agatha Christie's novels (with the possible exception of And Then There Were None) are all extremely formulaic. She basically wrote the same novel again and again with minor variations. The same also goes for Enid Blyton too, who also wrote largely to formula.

To illustrate, for Poirot there are 33 novels and 50 short stories, all of which are largely the same. Likewise, there ar 21 Famous Five novels, which again are all largely the same. Both of them were too prolific for their own good, and so no single work of theirs can ever stand out.

A similar criticism might be leveled at Conan Doyle with Sherlock holmes, but on the other hand Holmes wrote a larger variety of plots (it wasn't all murder, as it was with Christie), and Doyle placed a much larger emphasis on the relationship between Holmes and Watson, which makes the series more interesting. But I wouldn't even be sure of Conan Doyle having that much staying power either, even though he's already managed to last this long.
I can't talk about Enid Blyton as I haven't read any of his work but I agree with you on Agatha Christie, formulaic story and mostly static main characters tampered my interest to her work. I would say than Michael Connelly's work share the same issue.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Onii-chan~ Sume can teach you kanji. What will you teach me?
It's probably a good idea to not ask, so much way than it could go wrong...
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Old 2012-09-28, 09:26   Link #24
willx
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Hm, come to think of it, as I google'd all the authors of whom I had particular respect -- it seems like they're all pre-1950's. Now, looking at the modern "literature" that I read.. I feel most of it is currently, for lack of a better word, is kind of trashy.. It's enjoyable and fun but I don't "respect" it ..

So, here's my list of those whom I think have a chance of going down in history, as well as some hopefuls that are likely not going to but I hope would:

William Golding - Probably / Likely
J.K Rowling - Probably / Likely
Douglas Adams - Unlikely, but I like him
Neil Gaiman - Unlikely, but I like him
George Orwell - Kind of cheating, 1984 was published in 1949..
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Old 2012-09-28, 17:20   Link #25
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Not sure if you got the premise of that novel correctly. It's about a future where otaku "culture" has become mainstream with writing being done in internet slang style (avoiding kanji as much as possible) and incest literature being the most popular genre. Add in time travel and changing of the "present" (the characters' present, which is our future), and we have a wacky story worth of a Sumeragi-SaintessHeart romance.
I think that might be the future we are heading into - given the amount of internet slang and 9gag quotes sometimes I wonder if creativity is alternatively suppressed by providing people with "premade-meme" lulz phrases and themes. And why am I the sub. It should always be Saintessheart-<name of a cute little girl>, not the other way round.

Quote:
Onii-chan~ Sume can teach you kanji. What will you teach me?
No thank you. I will wait for my little loli time-traveller to appear and call me nii-san, thus I can help her grow her marshmallows- *gets gunned down by a 23rd century mechanical CPS enforcer*
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Old 2012-09-28, 17:54   Link #26
Proto
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Quote:
I think that might be the future we are heading into - given the amount of internet slang and 9gag quotes sometimes I wonder if creativity is alternatively suppressed by providing people with "premade-meme" lulz phrases and themes.
Because senseless slang didn't exist in the past? The only thing that has changed is the distribution media.

Quote:
Hm, come to think of it, as I google'd all the authors of whom I had particular respect -- it seems like they're all pre-1950's. Now, looking at the modern "literature" that I read.. I feel most of it is currently, for lack of a better word, is kind of trashy.. It's enjoyable and fun but I don't "respect" it ..
Then what you need to change is the authors you read from. Some of the best novels I've read as of late are from contemporary authors (like Dan Simmon's Hyperion) I've found resources like Goodreads to be excelent when trying to find good literature. You might want to give it a try.
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Old 2012-09-28, 17:57   Link #27
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Because senseless slang didn't exist in the past? The only thing that has changed is the distribution media.
Slang does, though not as senseless as the ridiculous amount of acronyms and shortforms we have nowadays. It really gets overwhelming that it becomes silly.

Either that or I am not reading enough modern literature. Most of the fiction stuff I read are still along the lines of Daniel Defoe, Robert Louis Stevenson, H.G Wells, etc. The writers of the 1800s and early 1900s - didn't quite like "modern literature" other than Tom Clancy, but even his works are getting quite dry.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-09-28, 19:00   Link #28
MakubeX2
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Either that or I am not reading enough modern literature. Most of the fiction stuff I read are still along the lines of Daniel Defoe, Robert Louis Stevenson, H.G Wells, etc. The writers of the 1800s and early 1900s - didn't quite like "modern literature" other than Tom Clancy, but even his works are getting quite dry.
To be fair, good writers like those you have mentioned comes rarely once every other decade. It's just seems like we are going through a rather dry period of litreature as of current where hacks like Brown and Meyer are able to sell big.

Anyway, if you like Tom Clancy's works, I will suggest you look up Steven Pressfield, who in a way runs counter to what Clancy usually writes. Instead of modern day confilcts, Pressfield writes about historical battles. He also choose to ignore high politics and just focus on the lowly grunts and talks mostly about brotherhood and duty. One of his signature title, Gates Of Fire had even cited as essential reading at West Point Academy for the officer cadets.

Speaking of historical fiction, I believe a mention of James Clavell and his Asian Saga is needed. Engaging reads every one of them and they are historically accurate as far as I am concern.
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Old 2012-09-28, 19:29   Link #29
Random32
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If I had to place a bet for 20th century, I would go with Tolkien. Post 1950 is harder to tell, probably Rowling.

Though when making bets on the future, a lot can change that would never expect. Some books that were panned at arrival are quite respected nowadays. Who knows, maybe 200 years in the future Maeda Jun will be deemed the most best author of the early 21st century (*hopes*).

Quote:
Given the degenerating use of language and the lack of interest in the pursuit of knowledge, will we even have the ability to read the books of the past in the future, or even bother to even read through the entirety of them?
How many people read Shakespeare without being forced to? How many people that were forced to read Shakespeare would have understood any of it without significant hand holding? The answer to both is very few, despite his status as a literary giant.

As for degenerating language. I think language is only improving. We have had a huge change in the way we communicated, and I think language is finally starting to catch up. There is less and less emphasis on presentation and more and more on content. You can only stick so much flowery embroidery into a very short piece of writing, thus the content is left to shine or die by its own merits instead of how beautifully it is argued. Despite being annoyed about how restricting the 160 char limit on texts is, I think its a wonderful thing.

As for the pursuit of knowledge. I think that we are doing fine. There is a huge push for science/math education, and I think the generation currently growing up is a lot more accepting to science than the generation leaving. Of course I can only say this from anecdotes as well, but young adults seem to be optimistic about things like NASA/etc, but the current generation of adults tend to think progress is a waste of money.

Also, despite not being interested as much in things like "fine" literature or history, the overall appetite for knowledge is increasing rapidly. We want to know everything about everything. Of course a lot of that everything about everything has to do with "lesser" pursuits of knowledge, and is often biased, but I think overall, its increased since even a decade ago.

Quote:
Slang does, though not as senseless as the ridiculous amount of acronyms and shortforms we have nowadays. It really gets overwhelming that it becomes silly.
Why do you think slang today is more senseless than old slang? I think its because old slang is just older and gets subconsciously associated with more refined in some people.
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Old 2012-09-28, 20:20   Link #30
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
1) I think that might be the future we are heading into - given the amount of internet slang and 9gag quotes sometimes I wonder if creativity is alternatively suppressed by providing people with "premade-meme" lulz phrases and themes. And why am I the sub. It should always be Saintessheart-<name of a cute little girl>, not the other way round.



2) No thank you. I will wait for my little loli time-traveller to appear and call me nii-san, thus I can help her grow her marshmallows- *gets gunned down by a 23rd century mechanical CPS enforcer*
1) On the other hand, I'm actually weighting for the incoming end of "instant meme" boom in 2 years at the latest. I think the novel is simply being a crude critical social parody in that regard.

2) I think she will instead call you 'tou-san', and appear resembling someone you keep insisting want to forget but actually don't.
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Old 2012-09-28, 20:34   Link #31
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Slang does, though not as senseless as the ridiculous amount of acronyms and shortforms we have nowadays. It really gets overwhelming that it becomes silly.

Either that or I am not reading enough modern literature. Most of the fiction stuff I read are still along the lines of Daniel Defoe, Robert Louis Stevenson, H.G Wells, etc. The writers of the 1800s and early 1900s - didn't quite like "modern literature" other than Tom Clancy, but even his works are getting quite dry.
Our writing has not regressed. Language does not tend to improve or deteriorate, it simply changes.

There are many great writers out there, if you just spend some time looking. With contemporary literature it's always harder because you don't have history to filter things out for you. But if you want some more contemporary (and slang filled...) literature you could try the Catcher in the Rhye. A fine book, only improved for it's slang.

The only reasonably recent novel that I know of with decent chances for having staying power is maybe Ender's Game. I can't really put my finger on why it works so well, because a lot of the concept is a bit pulpy.

I'm not a big reader of contemporary fiction, so I can't really comment further. I will say that Haruki Murakami's books in translation are very good. I'd say he has a good chance of becoming a classic author in the Japanese language.


One area where I will agree that language has deteriorated is in professional communications. Too many businessmen and politicians are taking shelter in sophisticated sounding jargon and incomprehensible business speak. I swear, I'll strangle the next person who says "going forward" or "thinking outside the box". Of course, this is not something new. George Orwell wrote something very good about it.

However, I don't think this trend has really affected literature. With literature it's a numbers game. There might be 999 hacks with hackneyed prose and stale metaphors, and 1 good author. That 1 good author is enough.

Someone else said that you only get maybe 1 good author every decade. I think that's a bit low (I'd say it's probably 2 or 3), but you can't expect great literature to be everywhere.

We're also neglecting New Media here too. I think something like Planescape Torment has a decent chance of becoming a classic.
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Old 2012-09-28, 20:44   Link #32
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Does Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter counts?
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Old 2012-09-28, 21:30   Link #33
Ithekro
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Not sure about Lord of the Rings. It was published in the 1950s but was written in the 1930s and 1940s. The Hobbit was 1937.
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Old 2012-09-28, 21:47   Link #34
ganbaru
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The reason I said about ''since 1950'' was simply to retrict the selection ( a way to avoid such obvious choice the Illiad for example ) to books or authors than haven't secured yet their ''place''. If you think than ''The Lord of the Ring'' haven't yet do so but should, I am perfectly fine to make it ''count''
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Old 2012-09-28, 21:50   Link #35
flying ^
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does Nineteen Eighty-Four count?
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Old 2012-09-28, 22:07   Link #36
ganbaru
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As much as I am concerned, 1984 ( and his author George Orwell) is already a classique.
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Old 2012-09-28, 22:50   Link #37
Irenicus
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^I agree. Orwell's presence in British and indeed Western culture is far more pervasive than his volume of work would indicate, and his influence only grows with the forward momentum of the modern world. He is already a classic.

_____________

I see J.K. Rowling recounted a lot here. Rowling is very popular, and I think Harry Potter is fun, but I don't see the series as a classic in the making.

Many, many generations of people have had their favorite childhood readings, their escapist fantasies, works which fit or even create the zeitgeist of the moment, books which were very, very popular in their time -- yet most of them are now more or less forgotten. I think Harry Potter will go the same way: a wonderful memory for a generation, a presence in popular culture for a long while, to be eventually sidelined. Unless of course Rowling comes up with a masterpiece and all her other works become works of interest by association.

Another mention, The Lord of the Rings, is most definitely going the way of the classic, if not already one. Classes on the Heroic Epic in American and British literature departments teach it alongside the likes of the Iliad; the last of a great tradition, if you can call it that, and the bridge to contemporary fantasy.

As for contemporary authors who I believe are already classics and/or will become in time, I agree with TRL's mentions of Salman Rushdie and V.S. Naipaul. Alongside these novelists I would count, amongst others, Umberto Eco, Josť Saramago, Orhan Pamuk, Kenzaburo Oe, and the late and great Kurt Vonnegut. Perhaps even Haruki Murakami, whose growing literary power is winning over not only the Japanese public, who always liked him, or the world audience, who are drawn to him from the first, but even the conservative Japanese literary establishment which resisted him.

And we're just scratching the barest surface of what there is in contemporary literature, the established figures of worldwide renown. Novels are declining, yes, but it was only relatively recently that it grew so vast and diverse, and the diversity doesn't seem to be dying down any time soon.

On the stage, Tom Stoppard has a chance to be considered one of the greatest playwrights of his generation. His masterpiece, Arcadia, is after all the best play of its time.

There is one important mention I must make: Gabriel Garcia Marquez's place in the history of literature is universally confirmed. One Hundred Years of Solitude is the most influential novel within the last sixty years. It has already dramatically changed the face of world literature; what more can be asked of a classic?

These are all, of course, traditional genres and modes of literature. I think it is more interesting and more difficult to speculate on future classics for, say, video games. How do you judge a video game classic?

And to return to Rowling, I ought to give her fair due: "pulp" fiction can, in time, be recognized as classics. Sci-fi was a "ghetto" unworthy of academic literary interest, yet now few but the worst ivory tower snobs would deny the importance of the likes of Arthur C. Clarke or Isaac Asimov. Frank Herbert's Dune may well achieve widespread respect beyond the sci-fi world. The Sherlock Holmes canon is now indisputably a classic, among English literature's greatest set of works, despite its own author viewing it as merely popular stories (his "serious" works didn't quite survive nearly as well in esteem). Maybe Rowling will really have her place, who knows.

Last edited by Irenicus; 2012-09-28 at 23:01.
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Old 2012-09-29, 00:18   Link #38
Random32
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I think Rowling will have her place. Sure HP is just for fun, but I don't think we have ever seen, or for a very long while will ever see again book launches getting parties like movie and game launches. The massive hysteria that was behind Harry Potter went well beyond all the other "pulp" in this era, or possibly any era.

On the topic of video games and classics. I think a lot of the major games from a one to a few decades ago will be classics by virtue of basically defining their respective genres.

Also, with that in mind. I wish to nominate Kanon or Kana Imouto for future classic literature. Assuming that the Visual Novel format doesn't die, I think they are games that really defined the utsuge genre. And I think the Visual Novel format won't die, I think it will proliferate in the near future. With tablets and smartphones, people are half expecting their print media to be interactive, and I don't think its too long before "paper" becomes interactive and most every new novel coming out will be of the visual variety.
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Old 2012-09-29, 00:27   Link #39
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I think that might be the future we are heading into - given the amount of internet slang and 9gag quotes sometimes I wonder if creativity is alternatively suppressed by providing people with "premade-meme" lulz phrases and themes. And why am I the sub. It should always be Saintessheart-<name of a cute little girl>, not the other way round.
Nah, in the end the "educated" (aka grammar nazis) shall always protect the basics of languages even as how we write of the world changes.


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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
No thank you. I will wait for my little loli time-traveller to appear and call me nii-san, thus I can help her grow her marshmallows- *gets gunned down by a 23rd century mechanical CPS enforcer*
Onii-chan, why have you abandoned the cutest of your imoutos

Onii-chan no baka!
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Old 2012-09-29, 00:36   Link #40
MakubeX2
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So, how would you guys rate Michael Crichton ? He writes a while range of subject from drama to sci-fi, always done a lot of reseach on topics in his novels on has a knack for breaking down complex subjects into something understandable.

But his talents lies in mixing fact with fiction and makes everything sounds believable like what he had done with Jurassic Park, Prey and State Of Fear. So should he be placed with all-time great like Clark and Dick ?
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