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Old 2012-09-26, 10:56   Link #41
cyth
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People have said School Days is cynical, but honestly I'm glad such anime exist. Everytime I think of that scene with Makoto and that cooking club member talking about him being a playboy, as if all the guilt should fall on the guy, when it was her that agreed to nonchalantly sleep with him, even acknowledging he had a girlfriend, I just feel sick to my stomach. Yes, it's cynical, then again men and women have nonchalant sex all the time. In all its gory fashion, this much needed cautionary tale actually points out the humanity behind the sex.

The characters' loose morality works wonders. Maybe the concept of loose morals itself is so effective, but for anyone willing to look past the mysogyny and nymphomania in School Days, the perspective that some people may not share your values is good to have when dealing with all kinds of people. Speaking as a former otaku who had to regain faith in women and, ultimately, humanity, having this perspective is simply a necessity if you want the discovery of people you can share your values with to be awarding.
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Old 2012-09-26, 15:08   Link #42
NinjaRealist
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
There is a contradiction between your "view of life", and one of your favorites that is GTO.

GTO is ultimately a positivist manga, no matter how twisted or fucked up some individuals in there can be. That is one of the messages of this work, people does cruel things to others, but they do it because they have their own reasons, even the pettiest ones, to do so.

But as long as someone tries hard and well, you can bring the good that was inside those people out of them. And that goes from Anko, who bullied Yoshikawa (one of those secondary characters who went through one of the most staggering character development of the series) to Misuzu Daimon (the "evil" new school principal) from the final arc. And that goes even to Miyabi Aizawa who did a good job at being hated by readers.

I have drawn my own view of life from my own father's life and movies like Schindler's List and The Pianist. From my father, it's something like, you can go through the worst of hell and you can earn your own small happy ending: he was forced into a labor camp during the Khmer Rouge period, and movies like Killing Fields can give you a glimpse of how horrible those can be, and yes, he speak other languages which could mean death for him, and a LOT of his family members died during that period. But in the end, he survived and had another family, it's his small piece of heaven. The keyword is "earn", something you do with the right course of action, at the right time at the right place, with enough mental fortitude to endure the shit that Fate throws at you.

From the Pianist and The Schindler's List, I have been drawn to believe that humans can be horrible to each other, but there are always some who are genuinely good and trying to make this world a better place, or caring for humanity as a whole. Those people, trying to do better and redeeming humanity through their actions, are why life is worth living and why humanity is awesome.
It's true GTO is a positive manga that is ultimately uplifting, but it also doesn't discount the terrible pai ad suffering that normal Japanese people go through.

I mean one of the villains is a girl who was gang raped and another is someone who was driven insane by bullying. And Saejima, hands down my favorite character, is a corrupt cop who sells police evidence for money!

I guess what I'm saying is, it's true GTO has a happy ending, but the aime itself is not just stupidly happy and optimistic. At times it can actually be extremely sad and then at other times it can be laugh out loud funny.

Which is why GTO is such a great series.
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Old 2012-09-27, 18:07   Link #43
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Back to topic, there's nothing wrong on loving School Days because its satirical and cynical values but calling it as "realistic" and "masterpiece" it just way beyond retarded. Let's use Saw movies for example, yes its gory and they victims deserved to die like that and that's is the movie's selling point. Yes it is entertaining as hell especially you're a fan of such movies but calling it as a masterpiece, critics think either you're hardcore fanboy or you're had problems. Same for Michael Bay movies as well, with explosion, sexy women, etc.

To me School Days were made to satisfy a group of anime fans which not includes me but lots of other anime fans loved it to death. This is my last post and if the OP still to discuss it with me, please use PM instead.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-09-27 at 20:06. Reason: Please don't disucss rep.
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Old 2012-09-28, 00:08   Link #44
ahelo
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Weirdest thread I've seen in a while. It's half School Days, half recommendations. It's like you know it's in the wrong thread but it doesn't exactly have a correct thread to be put into either.

Going into topic (which?), School days never intended to be realistic but there are a few things that this series has that RL has also. The "player" (which is what Makoto would be in real life), and the "bitch" and the "slut" that gets pregnant because of the "player" (which Sekai handles perfectly). Kotonoha . . . just no.

School Days being a genre deconstruction on the other hand. . . that kinda fits I guess. But if I were recommending a genre deconstruction anime or just plain dark ones in general, Madoka and F/Z definitely fits (as many other people in this thread have iterated).
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Old 2012-09-28, 19:07   Link #45
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i think School Days is realistic not so much on the setting but what a normal teenage boy who thinks with his hormones and not his brain would do if present if that girls willing to have sex with him.

As far as the aftermath, read and heard of bloodier endings in real life.
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Old 2012-09-28, 19:22   Link #46
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When you say "genre deconstruction", are you using the TVtropes definition of "deconstruction"? I'm not so sure of where you are going with your post. For example, how is FMA a deconstruction using that definition? I'd guess it's because events have tangible consequences and there is very little plot armor for a shonen manga, it gives a feel of being 'more realistic'. I wouldn't call it a "deconstruction", just a well done piece of fiction.
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Old 2012-09-28, 19:56   Link #47
NinjaRealist
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Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
When you say "genre deconstruction", are you using the TVtropes definition of "deconstruction"? I'm not so sure of where you are going with your post. For example, how is FMA a deconstruction using that definition? I'd guess it's because events have tangible consequences and there is very little plot armor for a shonen manga, it gives a feel of being 'more realistic'. I wouldn't call it a "deconstruction", just a well done piece of fiction.
FMA is absolutely a deconstruction of the shounen genre but I think your missing the main reason why.

The common pursuit of most protagonists in a shounen manga is the pursuit of fighting power. But arguably the central theme of FMA (Brotherhood really drives this home) is how the pursuit of destructive power is illusory and how in actuality, the most powerful fighters are the weakest human beings. There are numerous examples of this:

Spoiler:


These are the most important examples I can think of, but certainly not the only ones.
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Old 2012-09-29, 07:01   Link #48
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But again, I wouldn't call any of that a "deconstruction" of anything. It's just better written shonen, it has tight characterization and a coherent theme over time, but I don't know why that is a "deconstruction". I don't even really know what that is. That's why I asked, are you using the TVtropes definition when you talk about a deconstruction?
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Old 2012-09-29, 12:15   Link #49
NinjaRealist
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Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
But again, I wouldn't call any of that a "deconstruction" of anything. It's just better written shonen, it has tight characterization and a coherent theme over time, but I don't know why that is a "deconstruction". I don't even really know what that is. That's why I asked, are you using the TVtropes definition when you talk about a deconstruction?
I think that definition is a lot more sensible than Derrida's. Also, just saying my points are wrong, without responding to their substance, isn't really responding...

I gave you some very good points. Do you disagree that the main theme of most Shounen Fighters is "the pursuit of fighting power"?
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Old 2012-09-29, 12:32   Link #50
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I think Ninja Realist's point is pretty clear.

In most shounen shows, becoming more powerful is objectively a good thing. The process of becoming more powerful can be incredibly painful, time-consuming, and/or tedious, but once you get the power, you're definitely better for it. Most shounen show treats power like real life sports treats becoming a better athlete: Getting there is typically hard work, but you're definitely better for it.

FMA really does turn that on its head a bit, where power itself (and not just the process used to acquire it) can come with its own intrinsic downsides, so you're not necessarily better off for becoming more powerful. I think FMA does a good job of questioning the pursuit of power in a way that, say, a show like Bleach or Naruto doesn't really question (based on what I've seen of them anyway).


Is that enough to label FMA a deconstruction? I don't know, but it's an interesting argument at least.
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Old 2012-09-29, 12:47   Link #51
NinjaRealist
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think Ninja Realist's point is pretty clear.

In most shounen shows, becoming more powerful is objectively a good thing. The process of becoming more powerful can be incredibly painful, time-consuming, and/or tedious, but once you get the power, you're definitely better for it. Most shounen show treats power like real life sports treats becoming a better athlete: Getting there is typically hard work, but you're definitely better for it.

FMA really does turn that on its head a bit, where power itself (and not just the process used to acquire it) can come with its own intrinsic downsides, so you're not necessarily better off for becoming more powerful. I think FMA does a good job of questioning the pursuit of power in a way that, say, a show like Bleach or Naruto doesn't really question (based on what I've seen of them anyway).


Is that enough to label FMA a deconstruction? I don't know, but it's an interesting argument at least.
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Holy crap, this! This is exactly what I was trying to say with all those confusing examples. (thank you messageboard angel)
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Old 2012-09-29, 14:16   Link #52
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Fullmetal Alchemist is nowhere close to being a deconstruction. People throw that word around way too much these days. It's a genre piece, a damn good one, and deviates from formula in many good and interesting ways.

For it to be a deconstruction, it would need to stay far closer to the typical formula, while more closely examining the consequences of genre conventions, such as the never-ending quest for higher power levels... things like that aren't even terribly important in FMA.

Also, if they really wanted to be more realistic/deconstructive on the whole power levels thing, a training arc would end with broken bones, muscle overuse, and possibly debilitating injuries. At the end of FMA battles/training arcs, the heroes are simply left stronger.
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Old 2012-09-29, 15:25   Link #53
NinjaRealist
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Also, if they really wanted to be more realistic/deconstructive on the whole power levels thing, a training arc would end with broken bones, muscle overuse, and possibly debilitating injuries. At the end of FMA battles/training arcs, the heroes are simply left stronger.
I think you might be splitting hairs a bit here.

There are examples of this in FMA:

Spoiler:


I don't know if this is enough for you and, in truth, there is no manga that exists which accurately portrays the brutal realities of physical training and how incredibly difficult it actually is to train your muscles and how easy it is to injure them just while trying to train.

Thus when people use genres to describe things, they realize that almost nothing falls purely into one genre category and that most things have many elements of different genres.

So for something to be called deconstruction it need only have elements of deconstruction. It doesn't have to be a pure deconstruction.
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Old 2012-09-29, 15:36   Link #54
hyl
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You are overrating FMA. You are thinking that it's own main theme (the equivalent trade concept in which everything has a price) makes itself revolutionary for the shounen battle genre, while i think it's not. It's still primarily shounen manga that made itself stand out more from the generic action series because of it's own little bit of seinen "flavor" added.

As for the hardship of training, most sports manga do a better job than FMA .
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Old 2012-09-29, 15:39   Link #55
Sheba
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By this definition, Rurouni Kenshin can be as subversive. Knowing what eventually happened to Kenshin's body after fighting way over the limits allowed by his body and his age.
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Old 2012-09-29, 15:41   Link #56
NinjaRealist
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
You are overrating FMA. You are thinking that it's own main theme (the equivalent trade concept in which everything has a price) makes itself revolutionary for the shounen battle genre.

As for the hardship of training, most sports manga do a better job than FMA .
Like what?

I think the most realistic sports manga I've read was Buyuden but that one did a pretty weak job even.

As someone who has trained seriously, for most of my life, I have yet to find a manga that wasn't entirely unrealistic when it came to this subject.

Did you read my angry rant on this subject, vis-a-vis Kenichi earlier in this thread?

That's why I changed the thread title. I realized that "deconstruction" is, although a deeply flawed term, still better a more applicable term than "realism" because 99.9% of anime and manga is deeply unrealistic.
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Old 2012-09-29, 16:04   Link #57
hyl
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Originally Posted by NinjaRealist View Post
Like what?

I think the most realistic sports manga I've read was Buyuden but that one did a pretty weak job even.

As someone who has trained seriously, for most of my life, I have yet to find a manga that wasn't entirely unrealistic. That's why I changed the thread title. I realized that "deconstruction" is, although a deeply flawed term, still better a more applicable term than "realism" because 99.9% of anime and manga is deeply unrealistic.
You have been hanging around way too much at tv tropes seeing your own initial examples are the same found there.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...Deconstruction

As for deconstructing FMA, all of your previous examples are tied to it's main theme of equivelant trade: "Nothing is free. To get something, you have to pay/sacrifice something of equal value." Which in itself is a life lesson.
This theme (and life lessons in general) is more common in media that are meant for a more adult audience found in seinen or josei mangas.
That's why i mentioned earlier that it's just a shounen manga with a little bits of seinen flavor.
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Old 2012-09-29, 16:25   Link #58
NinjaRealist
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
You have been hanging around way too much at tv tropes seeing your own initial examples are the same found there.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...Deconstruction

As for deconstructing FMA, all of your previous examples are tied to it's main theme of equivelant trade: "Nothing is free. To get something, you have to pay/sacrifice something of equal value." Which in itself is a life lesson.
This theme (and life lessons in general) is more common in media that are meant for a more adult audience found in seinen or josei mangas.
That's why i mentioned earlier that it's just a shounen manga with a little bits of seinen flavor.
Well it's true all of those examples are from that list, but I have seen all of those anime and it's a great list. There are definitely ones that I have thought of after reading that list that would also count as deconstructions, which I only thought of after (Gunslinger Girl , BOTI, D. Gray-man, Jiraishin, ) but when I read that list on TV Tropes and saw that most of my favorite anime were on that list (Narutaru, Bokurano, My-Hime, Toradora, and Digimon Tamers) it was kind of a revelation. It made me think, hmmm, maybe I really like anime with deconstruction themes.

Anyways, a lot of my FMA examples are not about equivalent exchange. Hawkeye and Havoc couldn't even use alchemy.

Equivalent exchange is not the same as power makes you weak.
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Old 2012-09-29, 16:35   Link #59
hyl
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Originally Posted by NinjaRealist View Post
Well it's true all of those examples are from that list, but I have seen all of those anime and it's a great list. There are definitely ones that I have thought of after reading that list that would also count as deconstructions, which I only thought of after (Gunslinger Girl , BOTI, D. Gray-man, Jiraishin, ) but when I read that list on TV Tropes and saw that most of my favorite anime were on that list (Narutaru, Bokurano, My-Hime, Toradora, and Digimon Tamers) it was kind of a revelation. It made me think, hmmm, maybe I really like anime with deconstruction themes.

Anyways, a lot of my FMA examples are not about equivalent exchange. Hawkeye and Havoc couldn't even use alchemy.

Equivalent exchange is not the same as power makes you weak.
You are quite bad at deconstructing seeing that you completely missed what the "equivelant trades" are in their cases.
Riza Hawkeye and gunslinger girl are both classic example of people sacrificing their emotions in exchange to kill more effectively.
When i was talking about equivelant trade as a life lesson, of course i don't litterly mean it by using alchemy. It just means that in order to achive something, you have to sacrifice somethng else (effort, money or whatever) in it's place.
In case you didn't understand that, here is an example : In real life, if you want to buy something you have to sacrifice your money to do so. To get money, you have to earn it by working. Which means that you sacrificed your free time and effort to get money. etc.

While i am still complaining, school days is also overrated to call it an entire deconstruction of the harem trope. Because this was done earlier in eroge, hentai games and hentai anime that came out before school days .

edit: also i think you are overthinking too much about School days. While you may think it has smart themes, to me and many others it is just a nukige in a high school settings with some guro content in it. Those 3 elements are probably used because it overall pleases a broader eroge audience with the purpose to sell more games back then.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-09-29 at 17:03.
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Old 2012-09-29, 17:20   Link #60
Triple_R
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Quote:
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While i am still complaining, school days is also overrated to call it an entire deconstruction of the harem trope. Because this was done earlier in eroge, hentai games and hentai anime that came out before school days.
Such as?

Your statement (that I bolded) carries no weight at all if you're not able to back it up with at least a concrete example or two.


Quote:
also i think you are overthinking too much about School days. While you may think it has smart themes, to me and many others it is just a nukige in a high school settings with some guro content in it.
And who says a nukige in a high school setting with some guro content can't also have smart themes?

I don't think that Ninja Realist is overthinking School Days. I think that you're allowing a personal distaste of it to cause you to dismiss School Days a bit too easily.

Also, how is saying that something is a deconstruction the same as overrating it? A deconstruction is neither inherently good or inherently bad - It simply is. Being a deconstruction is no guarantee of greatness in a general sense.
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