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Old 2012-09-26, 09:19   Link #30761
tempteste
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After all, Jessica's usually the next in line and nobody gives her any guff about her female-ness in the meantime.
Jessica is not the next family head, she is allowed to choose one.

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Lion's gender is unknown and Ryukishi wants it to stay unknown.
Why do you think he doesn't want to reveal it?
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Old 2012-09-26, 11:56   Link #30762
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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
Why do you think he doesn't want to reveal it?
Because he has a serious fetish with catboxes?
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Old 2012-09-26, 16:08   Link #30763
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I'm not saying Kanon doesn't need accomplices, just that Krauss and Natsuhi don't NEED to be accomplices, and it goes beyond them, anyway. We're told that Kanon started working in 1983, and neither Kawabata or the other Fukuin servants said anything to the contrary, as far as we know. This is why everything about Kanon is the sore point in Umineko's answer sheet - everything about him raises FAR more questions than it answers.
No, they don't need to but in order to consider to have accomplices Yasu needs to know she's Kinzo's heir. Ergo Kanon remained a fantasy for around 1 year (in the narration, around 1 year before she solved the epitaph, Yasu decides Shannon will have a little brother and the morning after Shannon wakes up and states a new boy servant is provvidentially coming to Rokkenjima that day).
Then it's much easier to think she jumped on a request to create an extra servant from Natsuhi and gives to this creation the personality of Kanon that she decided all of sudden to give him a body when she doesn't bother to do the same with her other fantasy creations.

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I'd also say that "Yasu had no need to do that" is ... like ... pretty much a summary of her entire character.
Well, if you put it this way it seems all Yasu does is senseless when instead it often has a reason, though not necessary a particulary good one.

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Agreed. Only Kratsuhi and Eva seem to even care about the position - everyone else just wants a fair share of money.
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
Jessica is not the next family head, she is allowed to choose one.
Uh? Where did you hear this?
Though to be honest the next family head is supposed Krauss, who, of course is supposed to pass the title to Jessica since she's his only daughter.
Natsuhi said more than once how Jessica is going to be the successor of the head... although she won't inherit from Kinzo but from Krauss.

The only thing that caused doubts about how Krauss might lose his privilege of being the heir was the apparition of the epitaph, though it is regarded as an assumption, and when Erika suggests it openly Jessica got quite a bit offended as her father has always been regarded as the heir.

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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
Why do you think he doesn't want to reveal it?
Because he did his best to leave it in a catbox, and even Will pointed it out how Lion/Yasu's sex was left in the dark so he had to ask Lion who refused to answer.

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"Then, as a partner, I have one last question."
"What?"
"Are you............a boy or a girl?"
"......Well, that came out of nowhere."
"I could see you as a fairly slender boy. But then again, I could also see you as a no-nonsense sort of girl. ......Even Bernkastel has been intentionally keeping it a secret. She made Jessica call you 'our Successor-sama' all the time, instead of 'big brother' or 'big sister'."
"......*giggle* You are quick."
"People often ask me about my gender. So, I always give the same irritated response. ......Which do you think I look like?"
"......In the 5th game, you're treated as a boy. But in countless other games, you're thought of as a girl. ......In the sixth game, when Ushiromiya Battler was the Master, two demons of different sexes appeared, but we didn't know which was which. ......In fact, strictly speaking, it started all the way back in the very first game. .........Your gender is one of the hidden mysteries that exists outside the games themselves."
"I'd hate to give you an answer so easily, so I won't. We're partners, right? Does it really matter if I'm not the gender you'd prefer?"
"............
......You're right. If we're working together on this, I don't care what your gender is."
"Thank you. ......I've formed a bit of a complex about it, so your words are very gratifying."
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Old 2012-09-26, 19:24   Link #30764
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Uh? Where did you hear this?
Spoiler for -:

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Because he did his best to leave it in a catbox, and even Will pointed it out how Lion/Yasu's sex was left in the dark so he had to ask Lion who refused to answer.
But why he needed to leave it in the catbox? Why he made Zepar and Furfur of the opposite sexes?
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Old 2012-09-26, 19:48   Link #30765
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Natsuhi probably would gripe about it, I can't imagine noisy gunfire from sorta nearby wouldn't bother her on migraine days.
Rudolf mentions he used to go to the forest to fire it quite often, which made their grandma annoyed. Probably he started again once she died.


As for the sweets not equaling letting kids play with guns, not necessarily. This is the late 80's, kids were probably still being given pellet guns for Christmas to play with, and if you don't come from an area with strict guns laws or a war-time attitude, or even if you come from a rural area, showing a young boy how to use a gun is sort of a right of passage. It is a bit of a male bonding thing in some places. Maybe Kinzo, like Genji, sometimes thought the servants (or at least Kanon) should also have the opportunity to act like kids.
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Old 2012-09-27, 00:22   Link #30766
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
No, they don't need to but in order to consider to have accomplices Yasu needs to know she's Kinzo's heir. Ergo Kanon remained a fantasy for around 1 year (in the narration, around 1 year before she solved the epitaph, Yasu decides Shannon will have a little brother and the morning after Shannon wakes up and states a new boy servant is provvidentially coming to Rokkenjima that day).
Then it's much easier to think she jumped on a request to create an extra servant from Natsuhi and gives to this creation the personality of Kanon that she decided all of sudden to give him a body when she doesn't bother to do the same with her other fantasy creations.
Yes ... I agree with that. I was just arguing that she ciould, potentially, fool Natsuhi and Krauss. I agree with everything else you said about Kanon probably staying imaginary during that first year. However, Kanon IS treated as though he's been entirely normally employed since 1983, with nary a hint to the contrary, and this is more likely than not, just an oversight in Ryukishi's plotting. He either thinks the people in Prime are too dumb to escape a wet paper bag, or himself didn't think the logistics through very well at all.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if we got some extra chapter detailing how there really was a slender, reticent servant boy named Kanon who started working on the island in 1983, regarded Yasu as a sister, and then ... fell off a cliff and died when walking around with her one day, so she was just all "Well I've already got THIS many persona's going on, I guess there's room for one more. Thank goodness Jessica was always busy on his work days, I think she was starting to harbor a crush."

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Well, if you put it this way it seems all Yasu does is senseless when instead it often has a reason, though not necessary a particulary good one.
Sorry if it sounded that way. I moreso meant that she is pretty much a rolling ball of poor decision making, not that she does things for no reason at all.


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Spoiler for -:
Well, yes, there's always been that throwaway line in her TIPS. But honestly, the language of both things you posted rather imply that Jessica WILL be in charge of the family, just not with the absolute formality that Krauss would have been. They're raising Jessica and pushing her to be capable of handling that, one day, and no mention is ever made of them thinking of politicizing the matter of her marriage... well, that's just the feeling I got from it, anyways. "Technically, Jessica's husband will be the family head, but, ehhhhhhhhh, c'mon."
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Old 2012-09-27, 11:56   Link #30767
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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
Spoiler for -:
As I see it, it means that Krauss will inherit the leadership then he'll pass it to Jessica but Jessica, being assumed to act as a proper traditional Japanese woman will let her husband do the job. Of course if Jessica isn't married yet when Krauss passes the leadership to her, she'll be the head, it's not like Krauss will pass it to George because she's a girl.

How much of a head Jessica's husband will be is up to debate as in the Ushiromiya the ones that really matter are the Ushiromiya by blood in fact Hideyoshi is less important than Eva even if he's her husband so I've no idea which place will Jessica have in the Ushiromiya family.

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But why he needed to leave it in the catbox? Why he made Zepar and Furfur of the opposite sexes?
It's not that he needed it, in the same way he doesn't need to leave in the catbox what happened on Prime. It's that he decided it.
It can be related with whatever injury Yasu reported and the fact Ryukishi wanted to obscure its depiction.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Yes ... I agree with that. I was just arguing that she ciould, potentially, fool Natsuhi and Krauss. I agree with everything else you said about Kanon probably staying imaginary during that first year. However, Kanon IS treated as though he's been entirely normally employed since 1983, with nary a hint to the contrary, and this is more likely than not, just an oversight in Ryukishi's plotting. He either thinks the people in Prime are too dumb to escape a wet paper bag, or himself didn't think the logistics through very well at all.
I would say Kanon/Yasu could surely fool Krauss but it would be hard for him to fool Natsuhi as she controls everything. So, if Yasu had Genji as accomplice, she might have fooled Krauss into thinking Kanon had been regularly hired one year sooner than Krauss thinks and, due to his schedule, Krauss never notice him, but the same wouldn't work for Natsuhi.

That's why it's easier if Kanon got a body due to Natsuhi's request, as Yasu is already her accomplice in hiding Kinzo's death and Natsuhi might have thought having an extra servant that would testify that Kinzo was fine and well would be okay while Yasu turned it around and used it as a way to give Kanon a body.

A 'Natsuhi is in' theory simply makes things way easier, while at the same time it doesn't require Natsuhi to be an accomplice in the whole of Yasu's plan. There's to say though this would require her to be an accomplice in Ep 1 & 3 otherwise she would have noticed something odd.

So it's possible that Yasu managed to trick her... but this damages the logic of the story and the characterization of Natsuhi. All in all I think that if the solution is that Natsuhi never noticed or if Yasu managed to pull this trick for two years it's a forced solution.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if we got some extra chapter detailing how there really was a slender, reticent servant boy named Kanon who started working on the island in 1983, regarded Yasu as a sister, and then ... fell off a cliff and died when walking around with her one day, so she was just all "Well I've already got THIS many persona's going on, I guess there's room for one more. Thank goodness Jessica was always busy on his work days, I think she was starting to harbor a crush."
LOL, those evil cliffs hit again! They're the true culprit of Rokkenjima!
Actually it wasn't that the family was killed by a bomb, they were all searching for Kuwadorian before the storm started, ended up where Beato 2 fell and, in order to give a better look to the place, they all slipped down and died apart from Eva who didn't stop sightseeing and Battler who found another way.

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Sorry if it sounded that way. I moreso meant that she is pretty much a rolling ball of poor decision making, not that she does things for no reason at all.
Oh, that's for sure. Yasu's really terrible at taking decisions.
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:47   Link #30768
tempteste
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As I see it, it means that Krauss will inherit the leadership then he'll pass it to Jessica but Jessica, being assumed to act as a proper traditional Japanese woman will let her husband do the job. Of course if Jessica isn't married yet when Krauss passes the leadership to her, she'll be the head, it's not like Krauss will pass it to George because she's a girl.
During Eva's memories in Banquet it's implied that Ushiromiya family has strict gender roles and women are not allowed to be a family head.
Spoiler for -:

I can see Kinzo making exception for Lion, but for Jessica...
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Old 2012-09-27, 17:14   Link #30769
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During Eva's memories in Banquet it's implied that Ushiromiya family has strict gender roles and women are not allowed to be a family head.

I can see Kinzo making exception for Lion, but for Jessica...
It won't be Kinzo who'll make the exception. Krauss will inherit (as everyone assumed prior to the appariction of the epitaph and as it happened in Ep 8) and then he'll likely make the exception for Jessica, who's at the moment his only daughter.
He might change his mind were he to have a son, though, but it's highly unlikely he'll hand the title to George or Battler when his moment to resign the title will come.

Once Kinzo isn't anymore the head but Krauss, Krauss is free to hand the headship to whoever he wants, same as Kinzo who could skip Krauss and hands it to Lion.
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Old 2012-09-30, 07:08   Link #30770
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Hm, I was reading through some older parts of this topic, and came across this old theory...I was actually surprised how similar it is to how I view Yasu's motive. Of course, some parts are obviously outdated at this point, but I think that the main idea that Yasu believes all three of her loves will be able to bear fruit in the Golden Land is probably the central goal of the ceremony.
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Old 2012-09-30, 08:22   Link #30771
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Yeah but what reasons do we have to think Yasu actually believes in magic? She very consistently relies on human means to make things happen.

The only counter-examples I can think of are the butterfly broach, and Chick-Beato's golden truth.

But does she really believe that she can revive the dead purely off of faith? For someone who understands the "trick" side of "magic" as well as Yasu does, I have difficulty accepting that.
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Old 2012-09-30, 10:29   Link #30772
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yeah but what reasons do we have to think Yasu actually believes in magic? She very consistently relies on human means to make things happen.

The only counter-examples I can think of are the butterfly broach, and Chick-Beato's golden truth.

But does she really believe that she can revive the dead purely off of faith? For someone who understands the "trick" side of "magic" as well as Yasu does, I have difficulty accepting that.
Hi there, I almost never post here, but I do lurk the crap out of this thread, looking for a chance for me to chime in. This, I believe, is that chance. I agree with what you say, and I believe that the theory above is either worded poorly or doesn't fully consider Yasu's character.

Somewhat unrelated, but here's my two cents on how Yasu can create vessels like that brooch. I've read a good share of New Age books when I was younger. Some of them talked about attaching an idea to a physical object to make it feel like that object had some power over that idea in the real world. In the context of the butterfly brooch, Yasu would have attached the idea of "confidence in love" to it (which would have been symbolized by the spell Beato put on it), which could have allowed her to feel more confident around George and allowed her to act more confident as well. Almost like a lucky rabbit's foot or something like that. In this way Yasu could believe in "magic" (although that's more psychology than magic) while still having a good control over how she perceives reality (most people I know that have good-luck charms are far from "totally off the deep end").
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Old 2012-09-30, 11:51   Link #30773
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Hi there, I almost never post here, but I do lurk the crap out of this thread, looking for a chance for me to chime in. This, I believe, is that chance. I agree with what you say, and I believe that the theory above is either worded poorly or doesn't fully consider Yasu's character.
Well, considering the fact it was written before EP7 came out I'd say it's quite good.

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In this way Yasu could believe in "magic" (although that's more psychology than magic) while still having a good control over how she perceives reality (most people I know that have good-luck charms are far from "totally off the deep end").
Yes, absolutely. And didn't she "graduate" from it later, anyway?
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Old 2012-09-30, 15:15   Link #30774
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Yeah but what reasons do we have to think Yasu actually believes in magic? She very consistently relies on human means to make things happen.

The only counter-examples I can think of are the butterfly broach, and Chick-Beato's golden truth.

But does she really believe that she can revive the dead purely off of faith? For someone who understands the "trick" side of "magic" as well as Yasu does, I have difficulty accepting that.
Now that we know almost every 1st Twilight is faked, I think you can change the part: "she murders them and hope they magically revive" to "she fakes the murders and hope Battler notices so they can be 'revived'" That way we can respect the trick part while using the magic part to embellish it.
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Old 2012-09-30, 17:11   Link #30775
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Now that we know almost every 1st Twilight is faked, I think you can change the part: "she murders them and hope they magically revive" to "she fakes the murders and hope Battler notices so they can be 'revived'" That way we can respect the trick part while using the magic part to embellish it.
But ... the First Twilight was only faked in EP5/6.
It was confirmed real in EP2.
And it's somewhat hard to swallow that it might have been faked in EP1/3/4, especially in light of Our Confessions...
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Old 2012-09-30, 17:39   Link #30776
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Except those are also fictional stories with Shkanonigans (which is a word I demand we all start using).

The implication of Our Confessions is that the First Twilight is faked and then the 'victims' are really murdered later after they're in position, which happens in episodes 5, 6, and Our Confession.

Confirming the real deaths in EP2 and so forth doesn't mean anything.
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Old 2012-09-30, 17:44   Link #30777
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'Shkanonigans'. Hello, new word to use.
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Old 2012-09-30, 18:59   Link #30778
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Wasn't the First Twilight of Our Confessions essentially "I called them into the study, and shot them in the face." ..?

Even the later Twilights in there are like "I told them they would just be pretensing. I LIED."
Also, "Shkanonigans", I love it, it's going right on the shelf next to Love, or whatever™
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Old 2012-09-30, 23:23   Link #30779
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But ... the First Twilight was only faked in EP5/6.
It was confirmed real in EP2.
And it's somewhat hard to swallow that it might have been faked in EP1/3/4, especially in light of Our Confessions...
Regarding the red confirmation in EP2.

All we actually have are the various narratives, which are unreliable except for when Battler is present in EPs 1-4, and a request from Beato to agree to certain assumptions in order to play "the game" with her (a.k.a red truth).

But when you're not looking at it as a game the reds become meaningless.
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Old 2012-10-01, 15:24   Link #30780
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Here I come with a new update for the manga EP 8... who might or might not explain some tricks.

Spoiler for Spoiler for Umineko Manga Ep 8 chap 8:


And now I'm going to reread George and Jessica's quiz because it might mean more than I originally thought...
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