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Old 2012-09-29, 13:21   Link #81
Hiking_Bear
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that is true, but when characters are convinced of something it needs due reason as well. kishi can make his characters think whatever he wants, but it still has to make sense to the readers that they were convinced with a proper reason. in other words, be it characters or readers, the reason must be pretty sound. there wasn't much of a reason to doubt tobi being madara back before we saw him with long hair. i always thought that he would be at least partly madara which looks to be turning true
The reason the characters were convinced was because Tobi had knowledge and power that only someone of Madara's caliber could have (or so they thought). Kishi gave his characters reason enough to believe it was Madara. For the readers, that's not good enough, namely because of Obito Theory. Here's the major difference you need to consider: Did the characters ever bring up Obito as a suspect? No. But the readers did. So, it's reasonable that the readers would need some extra incentive to buy into the Tobi=Madara story. Remember when Kishi threw us hints that Danzo=Tobi? Now ask yourself whether the motivation for doing that was for the characters or for the readers ....

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not really.
So you're saying that "assuming the conclusion" is the same thing as a "logical conclusion"? Then anyone could assume any conclusion ... I'm not wrong on this point. It really is called reverse reasoning. Plus, if it were truly logical to assume that Tobi was two people, then that conclusion would have remained true.

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hair would grow that fast and be cut for no reason isn't very logical thinking. i assumed back when i thought tobi was 2 people, that obito wouldn't even have had time to grow his hair that long. i still think its impossible even though it looks like it happened.
Hair grows about 6 inches per year, maybe faster if Hashirama cells come into play.

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the hair thing doesn't make sense to me at all which is why i harp on it still. look at it like this:
obito grows hair long in madara's chamber while training
Author's purpose: to show us that time has passed during Obito's rehabilitation
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obito cuts hair to fight minato
Author's purpose: Student vs. Teacher. In his mind, he already knows that the fight is between Obito and Minato. So, he gives Tobi his Obito hair.
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obito grows hair long again while playing mizukage and to meet itachi for the uchiha slaughter
Author's purpose: To convince the audience of the idea that Tobi=Madara.
Character's purpose: Minato mistook Tobi for Madara, and perhaps this gave Tobi the idea to impersonate him.
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obito cuts hair again before he officially joins akatuki as tobi
Author's purpose: He introduced this character as Tobi, not Madara. Giving him Madara hair might have ruined the twist, which was only revealed later.

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does that make sense to you?
Yes. Because characters don't need deep reasons for cutting their hair or changing their clothes. It's sufficient to say that hairstyle could just change with time. It's not like every other ninja has kept a constant look throughout the series, is it? This is not something specific to Obito. So, Obito cut his hair a couple times in the span of 16 years. Why is this a big deal? I do it at least once a month.
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Old 2012-09-29, 18:12   Link #82
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
The reason the characters were convinced was because Tobi had knowledge and power that only someone of Madara's caliber could have (or so they thought). Kishi gave his characters reason enough to believe it was Madara. For the readers, that's not good enough, namely because of Obito Theory.
having vast knowledge and power is a good enough reason for readers to not think tobi was obito. obviously a writer can't convince all of his readers about anything, but for the most part, people acknowlegded that tobi displayed a level of intelligence and knowledge that obito didn't. obito wasn't as smart as tobi. now we are beginning to see that that is exactly the case since spiral zetsu is smarter than obito

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So you're saying that "assuming the conclusion" is the same thing as a "logical conclusion"? Then anyone could assume any conclusion ... I'm not wrong on this point. It really is called reverse reasoning. Plus, if it were truly logical to assume that Tobi was two people, then that conclusion would have remained true.
i'm just talking about this one case, not reverse reasoning in theory. it is logical to have assumed that tobi would capture naruto during any one of their meetings prior to the war. just because that never happened, doesn't make the assumption illogical. the writing is what is illogical

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Author's purpose: to show us that time has passed during Obito's rehabilitation
so no time passed for kakashi during the timeskip since his hair stayed the same? we can't tell time is passing from obito getting healthier and stronger and training? that's not much of a purpose

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Author's purpose: Student vs. Teacher. In his mind, he already knows that the fight is between Obito and Minato. So, he gives Tobi his Obito hair.
if the student vs teacher was a big deal then there would be some kind of hint in the dialogue that minato was fighting his student. that fight was treated more as a fight of necessity to destroy konoha. there was no student/teacher interaction at all even though it was the factual case apparently. in other words, obito didn't need short hair to convey a point that was never addressed by either character or the writer at that time.

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Author's purpose: To convince the audience of the idea that Tobi=Madara.
Character's purpose: Minato mistook Tobi for Madara, and perhaps this gave Tobi the idea to impersonate him.
this is all well and good but you are ignoring my point that 'tobi' was still impersonating madara when he joined akatsuki (to the major players in akatsuki, then to the kages)

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Author's purpose: He introduced this character as Tobi, not Madara. Giving him Madara hair might have ruined the twist, which was only revealed later.
and this is where it all falls apart into nonsense for the sake of having a twist in the story. would deidara have not believed tobi to be tobi if he had long hair? of course he would. he wouldn't be like "hey you have long hair... you're not tobi... you must be madara who i have barely heard of or cared about in my life and would never guess..."

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It's not like every other ninja has kept a constant look throughout the series, is it? This is not something specific to Obito.
right. and it's not like sakura just randomly has long hair and then randomly cuts it again either. she cut it for a reason and kept it short for a reason. same with hinata only reverse.

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I do it at least once a month.
first off, you are not a character in a story. secondly, you sound like you keep the same haircut. that implies not much internal or external story development, like kakashi or gai (as far as looks are concerned anyway. obviously there are many other ways aside from hair style to convey development)
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Old 2012-09-30, 03:41   Link #83
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i'm just talking about this one case, not reverse reasoning in theory. it is logical to have assumed that tobi would capture naruto during any one of their meetings prior to the war.
That would be a bad assumption. Naruto is the titular character and protagonist of the series. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone willing to bet on the assumption that Tobi would succeed in his goal of capturing Naruto. Who would bet on the bad guy winning?

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just because that never happened, doesn't make the assumption illogical. the writing is what is illogical
You cannot assume the very thing you are trying to prove/conclude. This is a logical fallacy called "begging the question" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question) For example, if you want to make the argument that Tobi is two people, then you must start with some premises which are based in fact (things that actually happened).

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so no time passed for kakashi during the timeskip since his hair stayed the same?
The only thing I implied is that time must pass for hair to grow. I never claimed that hair length is the timekeeper the Naruto Universe.

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we can't tell time is passing from obito getting healthier and stronger and training?
From the hair growth, I would say several months have passed during Obito's rehabilitation. If Kishi consistently drew him with short hair, I honestly wouldn't know how long it took for Obito to heal. Could have been a few days, or weeks. Additionally, to some people, it seemed to serve as a confirmation that Obito does grow out his hair.

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if the student vs teacher was a big deal then there would be some kind of hint in the dialogue that minato was fighting his student. that fight was treated more as a fight of necessity to destroy konoha. there was no student/teacher interaction at all even though it was the factual case apparently. in other words, obito didn't need short hair to convey a point that was never addressed by either character or the writer at that time.
There is no 'logical hairstyle' here. Obito didn't need short hair in his fight against Minato. He didn't need long hair either. He didn't need any hair. So where does this analysis of Tobi's hairstyle at this time get us? Pretty much nowhere.

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this is all well and good but you are ignoring my point that 'tobi' was still impersonating madara when he joined akatsuki (to the major players in akatsuki, then to the kages)
I'm not ignoring it, because I'm not talking about Tobi's motivation to try to fool Akatsuki members. I'm talking about Kishi's motivation to try to fool his audience.

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and this is where it all falls apart into nonsense for the sake of having a twist in the story. would deidara have not believed tobi to be tobi if he had long hair? of course he would. he wouldn't be like "hey you have long hair... you're not tobi... you must be madara who i have barely heard of or cared about in my life and would never guess..."
You lost the point in the second sentence. We were talking about the author's motivation for fooling the audience. Somehow you veered onto something involving Tobi cutting his hair to try to fool Deidara, and it seems that you're having difficulty in distinguishing between the author's motivation and the character's motivation. Don't conflate the two.

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right. and it's not like sakura just randomly has long hair and then randomly cuts it again either. she cut it for a reason and kept it short for a reason. same with hinata only reverse.
And what were their reasons?
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Old 2012-09-30, 11:00   Link #84
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you're confusing 2 ideals in your points, between the characters' motivation and the author's motivation. my point is that if those 2 don't add up then the story makes no sense. you don't seem to mind if the two do not emulate each other. for instance, tobi could have captured naruto at nearly any time and just kept him imprisoned until he needed him for the gedo mazo. you don't seem to mind this since the author's motivation is that the main character can't have gotten captured like that but the fact of the matter is that it is a plot hole. there was no reason tobi couldn't have captured naruto for years.

likewise there's no reason (yet) for tobi's different hairstyles, but you don't mind because they are meant to (unnecessarily imho) fool the audience even though the changes hold no weight in story terms (apparently). the hair thing isn't a plot hole, but it is most likely a red herring and a bit on the sloppy side as far as i am concerned
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Old 2012-09-30, 11:40   Link #85
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
for instance, tobi could have captured naruto at nearly any time and just kept him imprisoned until he needed him for the gedo mazo. you don't seem to mind this since the author's motivation is that the main character can't have gotten captured like that but the fact of the matter is that it is a plot hole. there was no reason tobi couldn't have captured naruto for years.
The author gives some explanation: he made a deal with Itachi that he won't do anything to Konoha. Itachi was watching him from the akatsuki, so he did know that Itachi would take action if he harms Konoha. When Itachi died he almost immedately ordered Nagato to capture the 9 tails. We could argue a lot if the explanation is good, i think it's not worse than many explanations for other things that happened.
I don't mind if there are such less logical parts since it's about 12 years of making a story where almost every week the author has to come up with something unexpected and cool. Just an example that comes to my mind now: why didn't Itachi use Shisui's eye on Danzou or Tobi or his own father? He could have prevented everything with that. If i were Itachi i would have first used the eye to make Danzou my subordinate, then order him to give back the other eye, then use the other eye to make my father follow my orders, that way both sides that wanted a civil war would be under my orders and that would have secured the peace for which Shisui died. And of course then Itachi could have used both organizations to become the next hokage and begin to search for Tobi and kill him, and then it's the happy end of the story
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Old 2012-09-30, 11:55   Link #86
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
The author gives some explanation: he made a deal with Itachi that he won't do anything to Konoha. Itachi was watching him from the akatsuki, so he did know that Itachi would take action if he harms Konoha. When Itachi died he almost immedately ordered Nagato to capture the 9 tails. We could argue a lot if the explanation is good, i think it's not worse than many explanations for other things that happened.
yea, that is true and i don't have a big problem with it. but in retrospect what could itachi really have done to justify tobi not taking action? if tobi needed help taking itachi out, he could have just asked nagato. the two of them would certainly have beaten itachi, assuming just one of them couldn't in the first place, which is somewhat likely, but more risky

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I don't mind if there are such less logical parts since it's about 12 years of making a story where almost every week the author has to come up with something unexpected and cool.
i totally agree. that doesn't mean inconsistencies aren't worth talking about or having a problem with. all in all, i love the story and i think it's amazing to keep a serial going this long at such a high level. but there are the occasional bs moments like izanami
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Old 2012-09-30, 13:02   Link #87
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
yea, that is true and i don't have a big problem with it. but in retrospect what could itachi really have done to justify tobi not taking action? if tobi needed help taking itachi out, he could have just asked nagato. the two of them would certainly have beaten itachi, assuming just one of them couldn't in the first place, which is somewhat likely, but more risky
Akatsuki wanted to work in secret, if because of Itachi's actions akatsuki were exposed to the ninja villages and they knew how much of a threat they are then a ninja alliance could have formed before they had captured the 7 demons, and in that case there would be no demons to create the 100,000 clone army and the 6 demons for use by Tobi, etc. Itachi himself is very strong and smart, and someone like Tobi couldn't risk to have an open confrontation with him. Tobi was smart enough to not be arrogant and think that he or Pain can beat Itachi. We know now that Itachi could have either tsukiymi'ed Pain or used Shisui's eye to take control of Nagato. Jiraiya didn't know Pain's secret, otherwise he could have won, but Itachi was a spy who was observing akatsuki for years, he surely did know the weak points of both Pain and the akatsuki.
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Old 2012-09-30, 13:04   Link #88
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I still kinda want Naruto to have the rinnegan...
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Old 2012-09-30, 15:04   Link #89
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I still kinda want Naruto to know some other Fuuton techniques, but that chicken's not gonna be sold and them eggs ain't gonna hatch anytime soon...
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Old 2012-09-30, 16:13   Link #90
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Tobi was smart enough to not be arrogant and think that he or Pain can beat Itachi.
he seems pretty arrogant to me. he took on minato and tried to destroy konoha single-handedly. before edo-madara showed up he thought of naruto as not in his league despite how powerful naruto is proving himself to be. he was going to challenge the entire ninja world with just himself and the zetsu army prior to kabuto's involvement. the reason for him caving to itachi's will seems like more of a retcon that doesn't quite work than a logical story line.

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We know now that Itachi could have either tsukiymi'ed Pain or used Shisui's eye to take control of Nagato
do we? what if nagato wasn't even present during the fight?

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Jiraiya didn't know Pain's secret, otherwise he could have won, but Itachi was a spy who was observing akatsuki for years, he surely did know the weak points of both Pain and the akatsuki.
just shooting the breeze here, but that goes both ways. tobi would know itachi's secrets as well. his MS powers wouldn't be a surprise. when living, itachi's only weakness seems to be chakra/stamina since zetsu basically called him invincible. but that invincibility only lasts as long as he can maintain susano'o with those magical weapons. nagato and tobi both have abilities that can prolong a fight and push itachi to the limit of his chakra pool, especially if they teamed up on him.
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Old 2012-09-30, 16:51   Link #91
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you're confusing 2 ideals in your points, between the characters' motivation and the author's motivation.
That's what you were doing. You were conflating the two, which is why I distinguished between them by labeling them "author's motive" and "character's motive". Take Danzou for example. There are two separate motivations behind his character design. His body is similar to Tobi's for two reasons:

Author's Motivation: To serve as a red herring for the identity of Tobi. Shortly before the kage meeting, Kishi dropped hints that Danzou might be Tobi in order to throw us off the trail.
Character's Motivation: Danzou's motivation for putting a Sharingan in his right eye socket and using Hashirama's cells was not based on a desire to mimic Tobi's appearance, but to attain the powers of the Sharingan - namely Kotoamatsukami as well as Izanagi.

These are different motivations. Likewise with Obito's hair there are two motives - the author's and the character's. As far as the character goes, we don't need a deep explanation. He changed his image in more ways than one over the course of his lifetime. As far as the author goes, the motivation is to sell us on the Tobi=Madara idea by making Tobi look more Madara-like in flashback. There is no inconsistency here.


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my point is that if those 2 don't add up then the story makes no sense. you don't seem to mind if the two do not emulate each other.
They don't need to emulate each other. The author is trying to convince the audience of something. If the character (Tobi/Obito) were to emulate the author's motive, he'd changing be his hair to convince readers. He'd be breaking the fourth wall.

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for instance, tobi could have captured naruto at nearly any time and just kept him imprisoned until he needed him for the gedo mazo. you don't seem to mind this since the author's motivation is that the main character can't have gotten captured like that but the fact of the matter is that it is a plot hole. there was no reason tobi couldn't have captured naruto for years.
A plot should be a logical progression of events that lead to a continuous storyline. It doesn't mean that the characters must be perfectly logical in their actions or even be smart. Consider all the stories in which the villain captures the hero, explains his master plan, and concocts an elaborate yet easily escapable death for him. Is this logical on the villains part? No. But it's not a plot hole either. A plot hole is what its name suggests. It's a gap in the storyline that cannot be bridged in any discernibly reasonable way by the reader without further explanation by the author. I don't believe that your example of Akatsuki not capturing Naruto sooner would constitute a plot hole. It was said that the 9-tails needed to be sealed last or else the statue would be unbalanced. And while, in hindsight, it would have been a good idea to take Naruto sooner, they would have more quickly inspired the attention of Konoha, one of the stronger ninja villages. Also, there was no way of knowing beforehand how quickly Naruto would progress. This may constitute bad writing, but it is not a plot hole. I think the more glaring plot weakness is Itachi's backstory. Itachi was depicted as one of the most powerful and intelligent ninjas in the story. His goals were to protect Sasuke, protect Konoha, and prevent war. And yet the intense stupidity of his actions worked against all of these goals.

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likewise there's no reason (yet) for tobi's different hairstyles, but you don't mind because they are meant to (unnecessarily imho) fool the audience even though the changes hold no weight in story terms (apparently). the hair thing isn't a plot hole, but it is most likely a red herring and a bit on the sloppy side as far as i am concerned
Maybe it's an example of weak story-telling, but I'm more concerned about actual plot holes in the making. Madara is shown to be alive something like a decade after already having given away his Rinnegan to Nagato. For me, this constitutes a plot hole because Edo Madara told us that he died shortly after he awakened his Rinnegan. We cannot go from Point A (Madara being dead after awakening the Rinnegan) to Point B (Madara being alive more than 10 years later) without some further explanation by the author. This is a true gap in the storyline. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, but right now it's a gap.
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Old 2012-09-30, 17:14   Link #92
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
he seems pretty arrogant to me. he took on minato and tried to destroy konoha single-handedly. before edo-madara showed up he thought of naruto as not in his league despite how powerful naruto is proving himself to be. he was going to challenge the entire ninja world with just himself and the zetsu army prior to kabuto's involvement. the reason for him caving to itachi's will seems like more of a retcon that doesn't quite work than a logical story line.
To be correct you've simplified a lot of what happened in the plot. First Obito didn't try to single-handedly destroy Konoha, he used an opportunity when the seal on the Nine-tails would be weak to release it to attack the village. Whether it was ultimately meant to destroy the village or not we don't really know. I have some belief that it was mainly to drive a wedge between the Uchiha Clan and the Village.

Also he didn't attack the village with the Zetsu Army until the plan to capture all the tailed beasts with his team of elite ninja fell apart because they basically all died including his most powerful pawn, Pein. He doesn't even need to win the war, just use it to capture the Nine and Eight-tails to accomplish his plan.

If we look at Obito/Tobi past actions, it become obvious that he rarely even fights people, instead preferring to let others do the dirty work for him like Sasuke with Danzo and the entire Akatsuki organization. Whether it is to hid his true abilities/identity or just his own preferences is debatable. Up to this point Tobi has relied almost solely on one distinctive ability which in itself is primarily defensive. I think Obito has always been more the plotter than fighter, trying to bend people to his will than facing them head on.
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Old 2012-09-30, 17:26   Link #93
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
he seems pretty arrogant to me. he took on minato and tried to destroy konoha single-handedly. before edo-madara showed up he thought of naruto as not in his league despite how powerful naruto is proving himself to be. he was going to challenge the entire ninja world with just himself and the zetsu army prior to kabuto's involvement. the reason for him caving to itachi's will seems like more of a retcon that doesn't quite work than a logical story line.
You could be right with the Minato example, but this war is really not what he planned, this war was his last option after both Kisame and Sasuke failed to capture the last tailed beasts. He has that kind of Uchiha arrogance that we see in Sasuke and Madara and even Itachi in some flashbacks, but i didn't see much more. I was not thinking about these specific cases but overall, most of the time he was hiding, only after akatsuki was mostly destroyed did he decide to fight the battles himself. Also he usually tells to others that he is weakened. Against Itachi he can't use the Uchiha-arrogance, they are both Uchiha I think when he fought Minato and when he went to the kage summit he was very confident that his secret jutsu makes him invulnerable to any physical attack, so it wasn't a general arrogance of someone who thinks he is much stronger but a confidence in his secret jutsu that he thinks is invincible. I think the best example of him being arrogant is when he fights Konan. Even when he attacks Konoha and Minato he had a good plan and he waited years for the best opportunity. If he were really arrogant (like Madara and Sasuke) then he would have attacked in normal conditions and not waiting years for the best opportunity. Maybe the only positive side of being really arrogant is not being a coward that attacks when the opponent is weak and does not expect it.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
do we? what if nagato wasn't even present during the fight?
I assume Itachi as a master spy and a genius and having a sharinan eye probably realized that Pain is a remote controlled corpse. Also Itachi had MS, so he was able to read the secret texts in the Uchiha shrine, so he should have some information on the rinnegan.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
just shooting the breeze here, but that goes both ways. tobi would know itachi's secrets as well. his MS powers wouldn't be a surprise. when living, itachi's only weakness seems to be chakra/stamina since zetsu basically called him invincible. but that invincibility only lasts as long as he can maintain susano'o with those magical weapons. nagato and tobi both have abilities that can prolong a fight and push itachi to the limit of his chakra pool, especially if they teamed up on him.
Well, that's if they fight, but Itachi is not the type to enter a fight against a rinnegan and an MS user. Itachi could have leaked the secrets about akatsuki and Tobi to the ninja villages. If i were Itachi i would have used Shisui's eye on one of them, and then order him to help me fight the other. We also know how important it is when someone is not afraid to sacrifice his life, that would give Itachi an advantage (for example Konan almost killed Tobi with her suicide action).
On the other hand we now know now that Tobi knew about the power of Shisui's eyes, he tried to take the eye from Danzou's corpse. So maybe he did know that Itachi has the other eye, and in that case he avoided any direct contact with Itachi because he feared that Itachi would use it on him and end all his plans. That would explain why he was hiding his identity from akatsuki, and even when he joined them he never met Itachi personally.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I still kinda want Naruto to know some other Fuuton techniques, but that chicken's not gonna be sold and them eggs ain't gonna hatch anytime soon...
I hoped for a hard and long training inside Itachi's tsukiyomi for that very reason. He is kinda dumb when it comes to learning, but if he had a few years and a good teacher... Naruto has a huge amount of chakra, he could really make great jutsu combinations that Kakashi can't because he runs out of chakra no matter how many jutsu he knows. At least he came up with combinations of rasengan, but i hope his big fight against Madara and later Sasuke won't be just rasengans and kage bunshins. A really cool ninja fight is like the Sasuke vs Danzou, where both used many types of jutsu, i really hope the next Sasuke vs Naruto won't be a powerup and monster battle like the one they had in the VotE, but a balanced one, both smart ninja fighting and powerups.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-09-30 at 17:48.
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Old 2012-09-30, 19:28   Link #94
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
They don't need to emulate each other. The author is trying to convince the audience of something. If the character (Tobi/Obito) were to emulate the author's motive, he'd changing be his hair to convince readers. He'd be breaking the fourth wall.
what are you talking about? this is getting a little silly here. all i'm saying is that obito should have a reason for growing his hair, cutting it, growing it and then cutting it. hopefully there will be one. if there isn't then i think it's sloppy writing. of course it's realistic and can happen irl, although it seems to be growing a little fast for my taste but that is the minor issue i have. my major issue is the drastic changes. people do cut and grow their hair as you felt the need to point out to me time and time again... i just think that it deserves more attention than a throw away red herring, which it very well might be and i wouldn't like personally.

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Maybe it's an example of weak story-telling, but I'm more concerned about actual plot holes in the making. Madara is shown to be alive something like a decade after already having given away his Rinnegan to Nagato. For me, this constitutes a plot hole because Edo Madara told us that he died shortly after he awakened his Rinnegan. We cannot go from Point A (Madara being dead after awakening the Rinnegan) to Point B (Madara being alive more than 10 years later) without some further explanation by the author. This is a true gap in the storyline. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, but right now it's a gap.
it can be explained as a metaphor. madara, as we see him in this flashback, is 'dead' for all intents and purposes. this kind of isolated, tethered, imprisoned, weak life is not what someone of madara's caliber would call 'life'. madara himself told obito that he was between worlds which is a similar metaphor. clearly old madara doesn't feel alive

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
On the other hand we now know now that Tobi knew about the power of Shisui's eyes, he tried to take the eye from Danzou's corpse. So maybe he did know that Itachi has the other eye, and in that case he avoided any direct contact with Itachi because he feared that Itachi would use it on him and end all his plans. That would explain why he was hiding his identity from akatsuki, and even when he joined them he never met Itachi personally.
that's an interesting theory. i dont really have a problem with itachi being the reason tobi never captured naruto, but there is also the timeframe between minato's death and the uchiha massacre in which tobi would have had no such arrangement with itachi and he could have (apparently) easily infiltrated the leaf and stole naruto. he could have done it the day after the kyuubi attack if he had recovered enough
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Old 2012-09-30, 20:24   Link #95
Hiking_Bear
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what are you talking about? this is getting a little silly here.
Then I guess I don't know what you mean when you said that the author's and character's motivations should 'emulate each other'. Did you mean to use a word other than 'emulate'?

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all i'm saying is that obito should have a reason for growing his hair, cutting it, growing it and then cutting it. hopefully there will be one.
I wouldn't get your hopes up on getting an explanation for why Obito had more than one hairstyle. We didn't get an explanation for Hinata's second hairstyle either. Personally, it doesn't keep me up at night.

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it can be explained as a metaphor. madara, as we see him in this flashback, is 'dead' for all intents and purposes. this kind of isolated, tethered, imprisoned, weak life is not what someone of madara's caliber would call 'life'. madara himself told obito that he was between worlds which is a similar metaphor. clearly old madara doesn't feel alive
I take 'dead' to mean literally 'dead' and able to be Edo-Tensei'ed (which is the context out of which this info was taken). I don't think the "I was figuratively dead for 10 years" explanation is going to fly.
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Old 2012-09-30, 22:41   Link #96
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Regardless of what happens, I hope Kishimoto manages to explain the 'little' things in the end without leaving them there as just a way to keep us guessing until the time came. Things on that list:

-Tobi's left arm turning to good during the Minato fight (this is most likely to be explained)

-The constant hair changing (yes, hair grows and gets cut, but this is fiction, where characters are designed and look a certain way for up to whole series unless something happens)

+In fiction and particularly manga, a character's hairstyle only really changes after a timeskip or due to some emotional growth of some sort. The best example of this, from THIS series even, is Sakura's cutting of her own hair in the Chuunin exams--she stopped being a girly girl and wanted to become a serious ninja who didnt need to worry about looks.

So hopefully, Obito (if he really WAS Tobi in all those flashbacks), will get his constant hair changing explained/shown, because as just a red herring/way to fool us, it's kind of weak.

Wonder what's going to happen next chapter. Methinks the Zetsu armor will hold Obito back so he doesn't get involved and instead can only watch as his friends die (or Obito trusts Kakashi's abilities and stays hidden because of that, only to be disappointed.) This is mainly because if Obito interferes as is, one would think Kakashi would recognize that swirly pattern/one eye showing when he first saw Tobi years later. That and if Obito interferes, then he couldn't really ever properly blame Kakashi for Rin's death, since he could have done somethign to help her too.
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Old 2012-10-01, 10:43   Link #97
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
I take 'dead' to mean literally 'dead' and able to be Edo-Tensei'ed (which is the context out of which this info was taken). I don't think the "I was figuratively dead for 10 years" explanation is going to fly.
I like how you pick and choose what requires explanation and what doesn't. so according to you, 2 different flashbacks in which a character looks different needs no explanation, but 1 sentence that does have a reasonable explanation needs a more complete one?
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Old 2012-10-01, 12:10   Link #98
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I like how you pick and choose what requires explanation and what doesn't. so according to you, 2 different flashbacks in which a character looks different needs no explanation, but 1 sentence that does have a reasonable explanation needs a more complete one?
A haircut does not require an explanation. Claiming to have died more than a decade before you actually did, does require an explanation. Do you see the difference? One involves a contradiction, and the other does not. Contradictions cannot be glossed over. Apparently you disagree.

And "it was just a metaphor" is nothing close to a reasonable explanation.
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Old 2012-10-01, 12:37   Link #99
Artimus_Prime
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I still kinda want Naruto to know some other Fuuton techniques, but that chicken's not gonna be sold and them eggs ain't gonna hatch anytime soon...
I'm still hopeful for fuuton: hurricane rasengan! (or some equivalent to sasukes kirin)
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Old 2012-10-01, 13:57   Link #100
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
And "it was just a metaphor" is nothing close to a reasonable explanation.
then you must have a problem with old madara telling obito that he was in-between worlds when in fact he wasn't. and you must also have a problem with old madara describing his current life and surroundings as hell, when it isn't. you can't accept a metaphor from a character and then completely renounce another one from that same character, especially when both pertain to the same thing: a lack of life. do you see the similarity?

also, you are very quick to sweep certain things under the rug as red herrings without a second thought, but in some cases it just isn't acceptable to you for some reason. madara's one line about the time of his death will most likely end up being a red herring to throw readers off in relation to the timeline
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