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Old 2012-09-29, 05:03   Link #7561
Destined_Fate
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That's what I was saying, we saw Kallen fall for the man under the mask while we didn't get that with Kaguya. The only real interaction was when she was horrified that Lelouch was going all evil as Emperor though she did grieve when he died since her love for Zero was genuine like Kallen's even after all he had done.
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Old 2012-09-29, 18:43   Link #7562
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
To be fair, Kaguya knew Lelouch the moment when he arrived to Japan. I'll agree that we'll never know what her fellings were for Lelouch anymore than we know of Milly Ashford's feelings towards him either.

I'll admit that Kallen initially fell in love with Zero and not Lelouch because she thought that he was an arrogant bastard. It was only after a time that her fellings towards Zero and Lelouch became one in the same.
Kaguya loved both Zero (before she knew he was Lelouch) and Lelouch after he revealed himself.
She wasn't stupid.
Kaguya knew full well that they were the same person.
She cries during the UFN conference because she's hurt that he is betraying them.
To say otherwise is to be willfully ignorant.

As for Kallen, she was a lovesick nutjob when it came to Lelouch.
No matter how much he betrayed her (left her behind with the BKs to save Nunnally with CC at the end of S1), used her (as pilot of the Guren), or treated her like shit (wants sex from her to make himself feel better), she kept on following him like a friggin puppydog.
He used her for all she was worth, then abandoned her in the end.
If he loved her (and I have come to severely doubt it after watching this show more times than I can count at this point) then it was a twisted and sick kind of love.
I don't see Lelouch being tender with her at all at any time during the series.
Anywhere.
Nor does he share with her any of his inner feelings or personal thoughts anywhere in either season.
Kallen is his ace pilot, his soldier, his counter-punch to Suzaku before he gets Suzaku as his Knight of Zero.
She is a comrade in arms, and a friend, but not a lover to Lelouch and the anime does make that clear without having to come out and say it.

As for Milley, she liked Lelouch, without a doubt.
However, the woman who Lelouch loved is Shirley, and perhaps CC, but Shirley is a definite since she's the only one HE actually kisses of his own accord for reasons other than sex.
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Old 2012-09-29, 21:55   Link #7563
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He kept Kallen out of ZR because he didn't want her to get hurt.

Her role as ace pilot was incidental to his valuing of her as a friend. (That sex moment was also in the midst of a nadir.)

They did have that heart to heart right when she returned to meet him following the second battle of Tokyo, where he apologized for not being there to break her out earlier. Then of course those damned BKs held him on gunpoint, and he was forced to lie to her too in order to save her.

I do believe they would have had more moments had she not been captured all that time. During the first season, he felt forced into hiding his true self from her. And of course after the betrayal, he felt like he had no future for himself, so he didn't want to take her down with him.
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Old 2012-10-01, 09:32   Link #7564
somersault
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post

As for Kallen, she was a lovesick nutjob when it came to Lelouch.
No matter how much he betrayed her (left her behind with the BKs to save Nunnally with CC at the end of S1), used her (as pilot of the Guren), or treated her like shit (wants sex from her to make himself feel better), she kept on following him like a friggin puppydog.
Did you watch the series at all?
Kallen was willing to kill Lelouch, despite her loving him, because she believed (according to Lelouch's elaborate plan "Kallen I was always deep down a sick bastard blah blah) he betrayed her and her comrades. How is that following him like a puppy dog? Prove me wrong only at this front, despite you having other wrong points that I can easily refute.
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Old 2012-10-01, 11:16   Link #7565
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Originally Posted by somersault View Post
Did you watch the series at all?
Kallen was willing to kill Lelouch, despite her loving him, because she believed (according to Lelouch's elaborate plan "Kallen I was always deep down a sick bastard blah blah) he betrayed her and her comrades. How is that following him like a puppy dog? Prove me wrong only at this front, despite you having other wrong points that I can easily refute.
That was only at the end during ZR.
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Old 2012-10-01, 11:40   Link #7566
somersault
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
That was only at the end during ZR.
Um, I know? I am the one that posted it. What are you trying to get at?

eta: Unless you misinterpreted my post. I never underestimated Kallen's love towards Lelouch, I was merely pointing out to the above poster, that Kallen had had boundaries, she wouldn't follow Lelouch if that meant betraying her comrades, especially after Lelouch's charade at that moment. (now if Lelouch had treated her differently in that particular scene where he pretended he was a cold bastard all together, she would have definitely gone with him had he given her a good reason /aka profess his feelings in a way/ and that wouldn't mean she was a lovesick but that is an what-if conversation, so let us leave it at that.)

Point is. Kallen grew to love Lelouch, after she had respected him and admired him like Zero. And that's not just a crush puppy love.

Last edited by somersault; 2012-10-01 at 12:14.
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Old 2012-10-01, 16:04   Link #7567
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I know. GF0083 was insinuating the entire show instead.
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Old 2012-10-01, 16:45   Link #7568
somersault
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
He used her for all she was worth, then abandoned her in the end.
If he loved her (and I have come to severely doubt it after watching this show more times than I can count at this point) then it was a twisted and sick kind of love.
I don't see Lelouch being tender with her at all at any time during the series.
Anywhere.

However, the woman who Lelouch loved is Shirley, and perhaps CC, but Shirley is a definite since she's the only one HE actually kisses of his own accord for reasons other than sex.
So, you are basing his love on whomever he kissed? Perhaps you should take into consideration the circumstances surrounding his initiative to kiss Shirley.
Not saying he didn't have feelings for her, he probably did but he wasn't sure himself like he said in episode S1E14. (or was it 15, anyway the one he erased her memories)
But Lelouch, as he himself knew, could only work with Shirley in a purely strictly highschool enviroment, where he would be a normal highschool student, same as her.

And lol@ "he never showed tenderness towards Kallen". You must be joking, because there are tons of moments (specially in R2) where he genuinely shows his liking (borderline-friendship) towards her, unless you are completely biased to ignore it.
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Old 2012-10-01, 17:03   Link #7569
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Just ignore him, he's way too confrontational and a heavy Kallen hater. Nearly got us both banned when I got in it with him over his rudeness and misinterpreting what I said and running with it. So just take the high road, you can't convince everyone after all. Especially not those fueled by irrational hate.
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Old 2012-10-01, 17:12   Link #7570
somersault
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Just ignore him, he's way too confrontational and a heavy Kallen hater. Nearly got us both banned when I got in it with him over his rudeness and misinterpreting what I said and running with it. So just take the high road, you can't convince everyone after all. Especially not those fueled by irrational hate.
Oh I have dealt with many posters like him early on my days, old habits; I'm not gonna attack or anything ,it's not my life's purpose to convince other people to think like me, but when they discard canon facts it bugs me.

I'm still loling over his line "he used her and then he abandoned her in the end" considering Lelouch's last line towards Kallen was "Live on."

Last edited by somersault; 2012-10-01 at 17:49.
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Old 2012-10-01, 20:43   Link #7571
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
He kept Kallen out of ZR because he didn't want her to get hurt.
Doesn't change the fact that he told her to take a hike.

Quote:
Her role as ace pilot was incidental to his valuing of her as a friend. (That sex moment was also in the midst of a nadir.)
I wouldn't call it incidental.
I'd call it practical considering that without Kallen as his ace pilot, Lelouch's plans wouldn't have gotten very far (unless Okouchi wrote it differently).

Quote:
They did have that heart to heart right when she returned to meet him following the second battle of Tokyo, where he apologized for not being there to break her out earlier. Then of course those damned BKs held him on gunpoint, and he was forced to lie to her too in order to save her.
No, I disagree.
That wasn't a heart-to-heart talk.
Definitely an apology, but not more than that.
Not like he had with CC in the cave in S1 or with Shirley in the rain after she learns he's Zero.
Kallen is never portrayed as having that tender of a moment with Lelouch at all.
Lelouch treats her on par with Suzaku, and I view the talk they had after the 2nd battle of tokyo to be a lot like the conversation Lelouch has with Suzaku in episode 25 (when Lelouch hands over the mask of Zero).
I do agree that he doesn't want Kallen to die due to him.

Quote:
I do believe they would have had more moments had she not been captured all that time. During the first season, he felt forced into hiding his true self from her. And of course after the betrayal, he felt like he had no future for himself, so he didn't want to take her down with him.
If that's what Okouchi wanted he and Taniguichi would have written it that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somersault View Post
Did you watch the series at all?
Kallen was willing to kill Lelouch, despite her loving him, because she believed (according to Lelouch's elaborate plan "Kallen I was always deep down a sick bastard blah blah) he betrayed her and her comrades. How is that following him like a puppy dog? Prove me wrong only at this front, despite you having other wrong points that I can easily refute.
Nice Red Herring.
I didn't say Kallen wasn't willing to kill Lelouch.
You're bringing in something that doesn't relate to what I said.

As azul120 pointed out, I was referring to the entire series, and yes, even in the end she's covering for Lelouch.

Your claim of my not following the anime (I assume that's what you meant by "canon") is easily refuted by pointing out that Kallen is the one who contradicts Tohdou in episode 25 of R2, when he correctly assumes Zero is Suzaku, but Kallen says "No! It's Zero, the real one!"
So she's still covering for Lelouch at that point even though she's in a straightjacket on parade as a prisoner to be executed.
As far was we're told, Lelouch hasn't informed Kallen of ZR or that Zero will show up, or what will happen.
Therefore, she's still wagging her tail at Lelouch even though she might get executed by him as far as she knows(nothing in the anime suggests otherwise).

Now with regard to the only point that Kallen wants to kill Lelouch, I imagine you're thinking of the scene where she bursts into the hangar with the radiant wave of her Guren Seiten during the last battle in ep. 24.
Kallen tells Lelouch "Goodbye Lelouch" and then CC stops her from using the radiant wave with the Pink Lancelot's missile shield.
If Okouchi wanted Kallen to kill Lelouch right then, then that would have been the best time to do it.
However, the writer didn't want that for obvious reasons.
Also, Kallen's willingness to kill Lelouch is portrayed as being like any puppydog you betray, she wanted to get back at him for hurting her.

Allow me to illustrate



Ignoring yet another tender moment between CC and Lelouch, we see Kallen's emotions being expressed through her dialogue.
Taniguichi has her with tears in her eyes as she says "Goodbye, Lelouch" and later during the battle with CC, she tells CC she doesn't care about winning.
Jealousy and revenge come through in both the official Japanese version, official english dub, and english sub.
So, unless you watched a fansub of this show, you should understand that the only reason expressed by Kallen for wanting Lelouch dead is because she feels betrayed on a personal level.
When Lelouch is exposed for betraying the BKs, Kallen defends him by using herself as a shield. So his betraying the Black Knights doesn't deter her obsession with him.
In fact, that scene in ep 19 only emphasizes what you pointed out, that being that Kallen loves him like a wackjob no matter what until she thinks Lelouch doesn't love her.
Then he has to go.
Okouchi and Taniguichi show through both action and dialogue that Kallen feels that way in ep 24.
Her willingness to kill Lelouch shows that if she can't have Lelouch, then nobody can, so she'll kill him to prevent anyone else from having him.

Kinda like her fans...but I digress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Just ignore him, he's way too confrontational and a heavy Kallen hater. Nearly got us both banned when I got in it with him over his rudeness and misinterpreting what I said and running with it. So just take the high road, you can't convince everyone after all. Especially not those fueled by irrational hate.
Don't make excuses.
You lost the arguement because you were trying to use a video game to say Lelouch loved Kallen and I called you on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somersault View Post
Oh I have dealt with many posters like him early on my days, old habits; I'm not gonna attack or anything ,it's not my life's purpose to convince other people to think like me, but when they discard canon facts it bugs me.

I'm still loling over his line "he used her and then he abandoned her in the end" considering Lelouch's last line towards Kallen was "Live on."
In the end (as in the whole ending, not one cherry picked scene) he did abandon her and leave her behind.
Lelouch only shared his plans with CC and Suzaku, nobody else.
He kept Kallen out of the loop.
Why, Lelouch did this should be obvious to anyone who has watched the show and understands it.
Lelouch wanted all of his friends to "Live on" including Nunnally, Rivaltz, Nina, Milley, etc.
Hell, Lelouch even wanted Cornelia and Schneizel to "Live on" so you're not making any damn sense by cherry picking that as if it means something specific to Kallen beyond "go live your own life."
It doesn't.
What it does show is that Lelouch knows she'd follow him into death if he didn't stop her and cut her loose.
By ep 25, Lelouch doesn't want any more of his friends to die, and that includes Kallen.
Lelouch's concern for Rolo is a good example of how his feelings were by the end of the show.
Even knowing Rolo killed Shirley, Lelouch begs Rolo not to sacrifice himself for him. That clearly illustrates Lelouch doesn't want anyone else he cares about to die because of him.
Kallen is no exception to that, she's his friend.

Therefore, I take issue with you claiming that your opinion is "fact" since the anime doesn't support it.
If it's your opinion that those words mean more than what the anime suggests, then say it's your opinion, but don't give me that "it's canon" line of BS.
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Old 2012-10-01, 22:12   Link #7572
azul120
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Doesn't change the fact that he told her to take a hike.
You're saying that like it's a bad thing.

C. C. and Suzaku were kept around because they had nothing to lose in doing so, unlike Kallen.

Again, Lelouch didn't get enough time with Kallen because of the capture, and subsequently, the betrayal of the BKs that forced him to push her away.

As for Schneizel and Cornelia, I guess he didn't care enough to take them down with him. (Oghi and Villetta, he didn't suspect in the least I guess.)
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Old 2012-10-01, 22:28   Link #7573
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I think Leouch love Karen but not romantically enough, but he really cares for her.. as being one of his most important loyal supporter and friend....
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Old 2012-10-01, 22:28   Link #7574
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
You're saying that like it's a bad thing.

C. C. and Suzaku were kept around because they had nothing to lose in doing so, unlike Kallen.

Again, Lelouch didn't get enough time with Kallen because of the capture, and subsequently, the betrayal of the BKs that forced him to push her away.

As for Schneizel and Cornelia, I guess he didn't care enough to take them down with him. (Oghi and Villetta, he didn't suspect in the least I guess.)
Depends on how you view it.
I think that since Lelouch wanted to save all of his friends, he pushed Kallen away from him since he was aware she loved him.
He certainly didn't want her (or anyone else) to die for him at that point.

Good examples with Ougi and Villetta, he let them live even though he could have had them killed.
Just further emphasizes my point that he was sick of the killing.
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Old 2012-10-01, 22:37   Link #7575
morbosfist
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Just to grab a couple points, because I don't want to get into the whole argument.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
No, I disagree.
That wasn't a heart-to-heart talk.
Definitely an apology, but not more than that.
I would point out that an elevator ride is hardly enough time for more, and it's a matter of fact that any more was interrupted by what happened next. In fact, that's a pretty constant thing with those two. There's a moment, someone ruins it. The only solid moment they had was ruined by Lelouch himself for obvious reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Your claim of my not following the anime (I assume that's what you meant by "canon") is easily refuted by pointing out that Kallen is the one who contradicts Tohdou in episode 25 of R2, when he correctly assumes Zero is Suzaku, but Kallen says "No! It's Zero, the real one!"
So she's still covering for Lelouch at that point even though she's in a straightjacket on parade as a prisoner to be executed.
As far was we're told, Lelouch hasn't informed Kallen of ZR or that Zero will show up, or what will happen.
Therefore, she's still wagging her tail at Lelouch even though she might get executed by him as far as she knows (nothing in the anime suggests otherwise).
I have to heartily disagree with this assessment, because it's ignoring context. When Suzaku pops up, they take the time to show Kallen being surprised and suddenly realizing the truth. By ignoring this, per your above assessment, you're changing Kallen's entire motivation in the scene.

Tohdoh was in the midst of blurting it out. Kallen stops him because she realizes what Lelouch was trying to do. She isn't wagging her tail, she's understood what he's trying to do and is honoring it.
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Old 2012-10-01, 23:10   Link #7576
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Just to grab a couple points, because I don't want to get into the whole argument.

I would point out that an elevator ride is hardly enough time for more, and it's a matter of fact that any more was interrupted by what happened next. In fact, that's a pretty constant thing with those two. There's a moment, someone ruins it. The only solid moment they had was ruined by Lelouch himself for obvious reasons.
If Okouchi and/or Taniguichi had intended that to be the case then more would have been added between them.
It wasn't.
Therefore we cannot say what "would have happened" since all we have is the anime as it is.
If a future series comes out that explains more, then we can discuss the "ifs" about Kallen and Lelouch.
As it stands, there isn't enough development between them to call them more than friends.

Quote:
I have to heartily disagree with this assessment, because it's ignoring context. When Suzaku pops up, they take the time to show Kallen being surprised and suddenly realizing the truth. By ignoring this, per your above assessment, you're changing Kallen's entire motivation in the scene.

Tohdoh was in the midst of blurting it out. Kallen stops him because she realizes what Lelouch was trying to do. She isn't wagging her tail, she's understood what he's trying to do and is honoring it.
How can you disagree when you're essentially saying the exact same thing.
Whether you want to term it honor or obsession doesn't matter.
She's still covering for Lelouch since she knows Suzaku is acting as Zero, and she's lying for him.

You may not like/appreciate my terminology, and that's fine, but the result of what we see her do is the same.
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Old 2012-10-01, 23:23   Link #7577
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
If Okouchi and/or Taniguichi had intended that to be the case then more would have been added between them.
It wasn't.
Therefore we cannot say what "would have happened" since all we have is the anime as it is.
If a future series comes out that explains more, then we can discuss the "ifs" about Kallen and Lelouch.
As it stands, there isn't enough development between them to call them more than friends.
By the same token, one can argue that all the moments between them constantly getting interrupted is demonstrating two people who would have been closer if not for outside forces constantly intervening. One is chance, twice is coincidence. Four distinct instances is a theme.

But this is a point on which we must agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
How can you disagree when you're essentially saying the exact same thing.
Whether you want to term it honor or obsession doesn't matter.
She's still covering for Lelouch since she knows Suzaku is acting as Zero, and she's lying for him.

You may not like/appreciate my terminology, and that's fine, but the result of what we see her do is the same.
Because it isn't the same. Calling it obsession carries the implication that she's doing it just because it's Lelouch, rather than out of any more complex motivation. Moreover, your original phrasing, intentionally or not, implies that Kallen hadn't figured anything out when she clearly did, which changes the reason behind her interruption of Tohdoh. In essence, it transforms a more complex motivation into a petty one.
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Old 2012-10-01, 23:37   Link #7578
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
By the same token, one can argue that all the moments between them constantly getting interrupted is demonstrating two people who would have been closer if not for outside forces constantly intervening. One is chance, twice is coincidence. Four distinct instances is a theme.

But this is a point on which we must agree to disagree.
Let's agree to disagree, since I see your comment as a long stretch of what happened between them.

Quote:
Because it isn't the same. Calling it obsession carries the implication that she's doing it just because it's Lelouch, rather than out of any more complex motivation. Moreover, your original phrasing, intentionally or not, implies that Kallen hadn't figured anything out when she clearly did, which changes the reason behind her interruption of Tohdoh. In essence, it transforms a more complex motivation into a petty one.
There is nothing in the anime that suggests otherwise.
We don't see Kallen figuring out anything.
Even in her monologue she doesn't say that she understood what ZR was about or what was going on with Suzaku.
She says she understands the results of what happened, and is impressed by it, but that's it.

So all we are left with is her lying to cover Lelouch's deception.
The only motivation we are given to explain that lie is due to the fact that she is totally in love with him.
To apply a grander reason to it would require more explanation by Okouchi or Taniguichi and we aren't given that.
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Old 2012-10-01, 23:42   Link #7579
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
There is nothing in the anime that suggests otherwise.
We don't see Kallen figuring out anything.
Even in her monologue she doesn't say that she understood what ZR was about or what was going on with Suzaku.
She says she understands the results of what happened, and is impressed by it, but that's it.

So all we are left with is her lying to cover Lelouch's deception.
The only motivation we are given to explain that lie is due to the fact that she is totally in love with him.
To apply a grander reason to it would require more explanation by Okouchi or Taniguichi and we aren't given that.
Except an entire scene where she figures out exactly what he's trying to do before new Zero's so much as moved. The implication of this scene is plainly obvious. She doesn't need to say it out loud because there's more to a story than just dialogue.

She is lying to cover his deception. The difference here is why. Your argument attempts to devalue that. She's not doing it just because she loves him.
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Old 2012-10-02, 00:03   Link #7580
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Except an entire scene where she figures out exactly what he's trying to do before new Zero's so much as moved. The implication of this scene is plainly obvious. She doesn't need to say it out loud because there's more to a story than just dialogue.

She is lying to cover his deception. The difference here is why. Your argument attempts to devalue that. She's not doing it just because she loves him.
You mean where she says "Is that it? Is that what Lelouch and Suzaku had to do?"
I wouldn't call that figuring out ZR on her part.
She realized they were going to trade places, but I don't think she expected Suzaku to kill Lelouch.
She's crying when Tohdoh says "is that who I think it is?"
Kallen then says "It's him. It's Zero."
She lied, not for any other reason than her assuming it's what Lelouch wanted.
She does it out of love, no other reason is given.
I know, I just watched the whole damn scene again.

In fact:


I see nothing in here that indicates Kallen had a clue what ZR was really about.
She simply assumed, and lied on Lelouch's behalf because of her feelings for him.
That's it.

After the fact, Kallen can see the results of what happens and she says "everything went according to your elaborate strategy."
However, during the execution of ZR, she is not shown to understand anything beyond Suzaku taking Lelouch's place as Zero.
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