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Old 2012-10-01, 15:22   Link #101
Amata Sora
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Another thing..if the manga is still going after this arc, will kishimoto PLEASE change Narutos outfit. Anyone agree?
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Old 2012-10-01, 15:37   Link #102
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
I'm still hopeful for fuuton: hurricane rasengan! (or some equivalent to sasukes kirin)
So what should be the equivalent powers and those where one is much stronger?
What i can see until now:
assumption for future: Naruto sage+kyuubi mode ~ Sasuke EMS + sage mode or rinnegan
Naruto's kyuubi mode ~ Sasuke's EMS susano mode
(both the human size cloak mode and the kyuubi-size chakra mode vs perfect susano seem equivalent)
susano's amatersu projectiles ~ kyuubi's chakra balls
Sensory abilities: Naruto has both chakra and intention detection ~ Sasuke has sharingan eyes
Taijutsu: Naruto has frog-fu ~ Sasuke has sharingan to boost his taijutsu and i guess he can open 3-4 gates to be very fast

where Sasuke is better:
Sasuke's genjutsu is much better than Naruto's, but Naruto has the kyuubi to disspel any genjutsu.
Sasuke can fly with help of a summon, he can go long range.
Kirin, but i guess the kyuubi cloak can defend against a hit similarly to Itachi's susano. However if it breaks down the cloak for a brief moment that gives Sasuke a chance to hit with other jutsu.
Sasuke has a large variety of jutsu, Naruto has only a few.

where Naruto is better:
He has frog summons that can act independently if Naruto has a strategy, for example while Naruto fights Sasuke the two elder frogs prepare to use the sound genjutsu.
Sasuke's sharingan cannot tell the difference between Naruto and his kage bunshins, Naruto is the most experienced with tricking the enemy using clones.
Naruto has superior speed when in human form, if he is as fast as the raikage then Sasuke can't see his movements.

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Originally Posted by Amata Sora View Post
Another thing..if the manga is still going after this arc, will kishimoto PLEASE change Narutos outfit. Anyone agree?
If he becomes hokage he will most likely get a new outfit.
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Old 2012-10-01, 18:07   Link #103
Hiking_Bear
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
then you must have a problem with old madara telling obito that he was in-between worlds when in fact he wasn't. and you must also have a problem with old madara describing his current life and surroundings as hell, when it isn't. you can't accept a metaphor from a character and then completely renounce another one from that same character, especially when both pertain to the same thing: a lack of life. do you see the similarity?
Your point only works against you, because when that chapter came out, I did indeed question whether Obito was between two worlds (Limbo for example). When the next chapter came out and Madara was depicted with a scythe (similar to the Grim Reaper) and Obito joked about it, it was clear that Kishi was being figurative. I don't have any problem with the existence of figurative language. But that doesn't mean that everything said in the manga (particularly important plot points) can be passed off as a metaphor.

In Chapter 560 Madara says that he "awakened these eyes shortly before [his] death". In what way is this clearly a metaphor? The context (unlike in the above example) does not support this interpretation.

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also, you are very quick to sweep certain things under the rug as red herrings without a second thought, but in some cases it just isn't acceptable to you for some reason.
If I thought that the Tobi=two people theory were a viable theory, then hairstyle would matter. But, since Kisame recognized both long and short-haired Tobi as the same person, the theory was effectively dead in the water. So, that means Tobi was just a singular person who changed his hairstyle over time. But that's a non-issue. He changes his clothes and his mask as well. Other characters change their clothes and their hair. The question is not 'why don't I consider Tobi's hair to be a problem?'. The question is, 'why should I?'

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madara's one line about the time of his death will most likely end up being a red herring to throw readers off in relation to the timeline
Throw readers off in relation to the timeline?? I'm not familiar with that. Is that a thing that writers do?
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Old 2012-10-01, 23:12   Link #104
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
But that doesn't mean that everything said in the manga (particularly important plot points) can be passed off as a metaphor.
never said that everything in the manga can be passed as a metaphor. i guess this is the point in the discussion when you have little options left aside form putting words in my mouth. what i am saying is that old madara being alive right now proves his words to be false when he said he died shortly after achieving rinnegan. there are 2 resolutions: 1)metaphor 2)10 years isn't that long for an old person. take your pick. dislike both options? too bad for you

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In Chapter 560 Madara says that he "awakened these eyes shortly before [his] death". In what way is this clearly a metaphor? The context (unlike in the above example) does not support this interpretation.
but if you look at the full context of the manga as a whole, then a metaphor fits perfectly. old madara thinks of himself as 'dead' and said it in a couple different ways to obito already as i pointed out to you earlier

Quote:
But, since Kisame recognized both long and short-haired Tobi as the same person, the theory was effectively dead in the water.
because uchihas aren't known for fooling people with genjutsu or anything like that...
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Old 2012-10-01, 23:16   Link #105
Black-Cat-Sama
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Originally Posted by Amata Sora View Post
Another thing..if the manga is still going after this arc, will kishimoto PLEASE change Narutos outfit. Anyone agree?
Yeah, an outfit change would be nice I suppose at this point, but if it's the Hokage outfit, that'd be best. (cloak/duster with hat). Think about Naruto's previous clothing, they all symbolize in a way, one point or another in his life.

-The goggles with the black shirt before he donned his full orange jumpsuit was when he was immature and trying to get people to acknowledge him, hell, even before he was a 'ninja'.

-then his full uniform that we came to know in part 1 is him moving up as a genin.

-his timeskip clothing shows that so much time has passed and he has grown and become more powerful (change of headband included, remember his original one broke because the training was so intense). (thi current clothing=growth too because it's basically a more 'mature' version of his part 1 outfit).

-So, his next outfit becoming that of a Hokage, or similar to his father's, would be the final step, one that shows he has become more than he ever was and now stands on top as one of the greatest. But at this point, I'm doubting he becomes Hokage and instead becomes something more, with all of the ninja world 'united', Naruto could stand on top as something far more special.

End of ramble

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post

In Chapter 560 Madara says that he "awakened these eyes shortly before [his] death". In what way is this clearly a metaphor? The context (unlike in the above example) does not support this interpretation.


If I thought that the Tobi=two people theory were a viable theory, then hairstyle would matter. But, since Kisame recognized both long and short-haired Tobi as the same person, the theory was effectively dead in the water. So, that means Tobi was just a singular person who changed his hairstyle over time. But that's a non-issue. He changes his clothes and his mask as well. Other characters change their clothes and their hair. The question is not 'why don't I consider Tobi's hair to be a problem?'. The question is, 'why should I?'

Throw readers off in relation to the timeline?? I'm not familiar with that. Is that a thing that writers do?
Not sure on the metaphor part, I'm just as confused there (it isnt one, as far as I'm concerned). But, (i believe you were the one questioning it), Madara was around the same age as the first, right? So he has to be a great deal's old. Sure we have to see when he actually dies in this flashback, but 10 years out of such a long life would seem like a 'short' time, especially to someone that seems to have been living his life trying to preserve himself and hating the world and all that.


-Also, with all the debating going on, I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. You keep drawing the comparison between characters like Hinata and Tobi, when they aren't really all that comparable IMO. Like I mentioned in my previous post, character appearances, whether hairstyle or clothing, really only change in anime/manga to symbolize something, to show time has passed or any other important reason. Hinata, and the other Konoha 11, changed their clothes/hairstyles once and even then, I believe at one point Kishi said it was a way to show Hinata was growing.

But the main point is that, looking back at every flashback we have gotten, characters kept the same hairstyle from they were young. When those styles change, they're usually brought to attention by other characters, because it is important (Sakura's shorter, newer hair being a prime example in THIS series).

So, what I want to ask is... Obito, someone who has been impersonating someone else, grows his hair out and leaves it that way for a certain amount of time, just because? And then he cuts it back to his old hairstyle...just because? and then grows it back after that, just because? Other than Kishi trying to keep the readers guessing, there has to be a reason behind it, or else what was the point of trying to uphold an identity and keep it secret if he could continue to change his appearance?

So basically, hair change is very important, especially for someone who has been planning and plotting and scheming all this time apparently. Kishi should show what lead to these physical changes over time to at least give them a purpose, because other than like...Bulma in DBZ, anime characters don't really change their hair frequently unless there's something behind it.

But I guess he can just ignore it too, you know, like we have to do with certain things in Chapter 599 and stuff, but yeah, that's my 2 cents.
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Old 2012-10-02, 01:10   Link #106
Hiking_Bear
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
never said that everything in the manga can be passed as a metaphor. i guess this is the point in the discussion when you have little options left aside form putting words in my mouth.
So why are you trying to pass what was said in Ch 560 off as a metaphor, when it's clearly not one? And I don't believe I could fit any words in your mouth as seems to be completely filled by your foot at the moment.

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what i am saying is that old madara being alive right now proves his words to be false when he said he died shortly after achieving rinnegan. there are 2 resolutions: 1)metaphor 2)10 years isn't that long for an old person. take your pick. dislike both options? too bad for you
Too bad for me , as if I'm the only person who's ever brought up this contradiction ... Too bad for the readers who pay attention. What we have is a plot hole. Why is Madara still alive to rehabilitate Obito if he is supposed to have died shortly after gaining the Rinnegan? Why did he leave these eyes with young untrained boy in a war torn country? Why not keep the eyes until his death and raise Nagato himself? Nagato could have been killed by Orochimaru or Hanzo. Why did Madara allow Nagato to be influenced by Jiraiya?

This is a big gap in the flow of the story's logic that needs to be explained by the author. However, I'm sure you will disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing with me.

Quote:
but if you look at the full context of the manga as a whole, then a metaphor fits perfectly. old madara thinks of himself as 'dead' and said it in a couple different ways to obito already as i pointed out to you earlier
Madara was just summoned back from the dead by Kabuto prior to 560. In the context of Edo Tensei, the metaphor does not 'fit perfectly'. A character must be literally, not figuratively, dead to be reanimated in Edo Tensei form.

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because uchihas aren't known for fooling people with genjutsu or anything like that...
The issue is not whether Uchihas have used genjutsu before, but whether Kisame was placed under a genjutsu to see Madara's face rather than Obito's. Such an event never took place in manga. I prefer to base my conclusions on facts rather than fabrications.

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Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama View Post
10 years out of such a long life would seem like a 'short' time, especially to someone that seems to have been living his life trying to preserve himself and hating the world and all that.
I don't think 10 years would be a short time, even to a 90 year old. A lot can be accomplished in 10 years.

Quote:
-Also, with all the debating going on, I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. You keep drawing the comparison between characters like Hinata and Tobi, when they aren't really all that comparable IMO. Like I mentioned in my previous post, character appearances, whether hairstyle or clothing, really only change in anime/manga to symbolize something, to show time has passed or any other important reason. Hinata, and the other Konoha 11, changed their clothes/hairstyles once and even then, I believe at one point Kishi said it was a way to show Hinata was growing.
And time cannot pass for Obito? He cannot grow as a character? We already know that he has some kind of identity crisis going on, perhaps more so than any other character in the manga. He's called himself Obito, Tobi, Madara, and Nobody. He's worn three different masks. He's swapped out his eyes. You're right, he's not that comparable to Hinata and the others. Obito has much more of a reason to change his hair.
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Last edited by Hiking_Bear; 2012-10-02 at 01:32.
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Old 2012-10-02, 10:39   Link #107
Black-Cat-Sama
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
And time cannot pass for Obito? He cannot grow as a character? We already know that he has some kind of identity crisis going on, perhaps more so than any other character in the manga. He's called himself Obito, Tobi, Madara, and Nobody. He's worn three different masks. He's swapped out his eyes. You're right, he's not that comparable to Hinata and the others. Obito has much more of a reason to change his hair.
It can and he can, but what growth can his hair constantly changing show? Other than to fool us as readers, some storyline aspect should be there imo. yes I agree, he has something going on mentally...so it'll probably be explained. Don't see Kishi getting around it in this flashback, like, the fact that his hair is just short later on again before being grown out again. It wouldn't bother me as much if he didn't shift between them during the timeline, as opposed to growing it out, keeping it that way, and then keeping it short as how we knew him after all his manipulating was done...to shift back and forth between the styles during the span of a few years, there has to be some inlaid reason
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Old 2012-10-02, 11:21   Link #108
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
So why are you trying to pass what was said in Ch 560 off as a metaphor, when it's clearly not one?
"I awakened these eyes shortly before my death" is what edo-madara said. you are the one putting in an exact time frame that simply is not there. i am simply offering reasons that can eliminate any problems you have with that 1 sentence, yet you are too stubborn to think about it. point being, there's plenty of ways to look at that one sentence being 'factual' or not. it's actually a pretty small issue as far as i'm concerned, especially since there are more than enough explanations including madara simply not telling the truth. he is a villain after all. why would he want to explain everything to kabuto who he doesn't know and certainly doesnt trust? the difference between our POVs is that i can see that sentence having multiple interpretations and not being a plot hole whereas you see it as an end-all definite amount of time that you have filled in for yourself and cannot possibly see any other option

Quote:
Too bad for me , as if I'm the only person who's ever brought up this contradiction ... Too bad for the readers who pay attention. What we have is a plot hole.
if you payed attention you would see that edo-madara's statement is not a very exact one in the first place. 'shortly' isn't a word that you can accurately put years to, especially when someone lived as long as madara

Quote:
Why is Madara still alive to rehabilitate Obito if he is supposed to have died shortly after gaining the Rinnegan? Why did he leave these eyes with young untrained boy in a war torn country? Why not keep the eyes until his death and raise Nagato himself? Nagato could have been killed by Orochimaru or Hanzo. Why did Madara allow Nagato to be influenced by Jiraiya?

This is a big gap in the flow of the story's logic that needs to be explained by the author. However, I'm sure you will disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing with me.
well if you paid any attention to the things i said instead of blindly disagreeing then you would know that i totally agree that all the questions you just asked here need answers (however irrelevant they are to the current discussion..). i think we will get answers to most of them

Quote:
The issue is not whether Uchihas have used genjutsu before, but whether Kisame was placed under a genjutsu to see Madara's face rather than Obito's. Such an event never took place in manga. I prefer to base my conclusions on facts rather than fabrications.
well then prepare to be amazed that it is a fact that uchihas use genjutsu all the time. just because we didn't see something doesn't mean it didnt happen. like how i argued for so long that tobi had MS. we didnt see it for years, did we? no. but did he have it? yes. also, since you jump to conclusions so quickly without a moment's pause, let me add that i dont think obito put kisame under a genjutsu to convince him that he is madara. i'm saying it is possible and that the theory isn't proven wrong by kisame's recognition.

Quote:
I don't think 10 years would be a short time, even to a 90 year old. A lot can be accomplished in 10 years.
not if you're tethered to an underground statue

Last edited by itachi-san314; 2012-10-02 at 11:55.
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