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Old 2011-07-08, 12:01   Link #221
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon View Post
I don't want to be one of those people that forces interpretations and beliefs on others but the whole point of the OP being at the end of epi 10 and showing it after Homura's back story is to show that that song is 100% about Homura and Madoka has nothing to do with it.


Your interpretation is looking at it from Madoka's point of view after episode 12 and after she became a god. The OP at the end of episode ten wasn't for shits and giggles.

But if you still want to believe that it has something to do with Madoka than I've got nothing to say.
And I'm speaking about every OP before. They weren't there for shits and giggles as well. I'm not forcing you to take my interpretations anyway
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Old 2011-07-10, 07:14   Link #222
erneiz_hyde
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First of all @rantuyetmai, let me say you are being needlessly provocative and I am a bit offended. Where in my writings did I have a tone so rude you need to reply with such manners?

Carrying on:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rantuyetmai View Post

Please walk up to a confident person that you know of. Let him know that his friend whom he met 3 days ago are being held hostage by the mafia. Please ask him to join your gang and participate gun war everyday to save that friend. Make sure he knows that he can die anytime and he can't step out of the mafia world once he joined. Give him ample time (a month or more) to take in these info and decide.

What he need to accept your request is not confidence, but a damaged brain.
No, he needs a call to the police or FBI. You need to add some more conditions to refine this analogy.


Quote:
Is it strange to refuse to die for someone you barely know while agreeing to die for YOUR city?? No really, if your answer is "yes" then we'd better stop discussing this point, because obviously our sense of value is different. And I'm strange (Since I don't want to die for the next guy, but I'd enlist in military if I have to protect my country from war).
OK, that was a bad example from me, sorry. They don't contradict because the base values are different. Madoka was willing to sacrifice her life for the town mainly because WN was there and it didn't have anything to do with her willing to sacrifice herself for strangers. But, let me argue a bit further below.

Quote:
First, it's not "refusing to help a stranger" but "refusing to die for a stranger". Donation and sacrifice are different.

Second, Madoka didn't "go" from refusing to die for a stranger to saving the entire MG. As in a person doesn't "go" from "refusing to buy something he thinks not worth his money" to "giving lots of money to help poor kids". That's not proof of growth, that's proof of having opinion.
It's a chronological order of a specific set of values. Madoka at the point of Mami's death didn't have the courage to sacrifice her own life for the chance to save Mami's(whom she had known for just a few days) nor the confidence that she can live with the consequences if she did that.

Assume that: (1)Homura didn't exist and (2)WN won't appear for as long as Madoka is still alive, yet (3)events still played out like we saw until Mami's death, (4)immediately after that QB suddenly had to explain the real mechanism behind MGs and everything about the fate of all previous and future MGs.

Now with no need of Madoka sacrificing herself for the town with WN out of the picture and yet Mami still died, do you think it is possible that at this point she would sacrifice herself to save every MGs she doesn't even know? My guess is she won't.

Btw, indeed donation and sacrifice are different. Your example actually strengthened my argument.

Quote:
You see? Madoka didn't undergo the transformation "from a coward to a hero". That's just the person she is. She has her own sense of values and the ability to decide what's worth doing, what's not. If you give her enough good reasons, she'll do the deed. If Goddess Madoka retired her job and came back to Earth as a totally normal human, she'll still refuse to give up her life to revive a stranger.
Here's the bomb. I actually agree it's just the way she is. However, my view is that actually finding enough reason and confidence to do things is actually a growth in itself. After all, she was also influenced by those around her to make the decision. What do you think would happen if Madoka became an MG alone (every other character doesn't appear) and later discovered the mechanisms beyond it by herself?

Also, how do you explain the stark difference of the outcome of the last timeline(every MG and the Earth is saved) and the one before that (every MG and Earth is doomed)?
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Old 2011-07-10, 15:09   Link #223
rantuyetmai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
First of all @rantuyetmai, let me say you are being needlessly provocative and I am a bit offended. Where in my writings did I have a tone so rude you need to reply with such manners?
I apologize if my reply sounds too harsh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Carrying on:

No, he needs a call to the police or FBI. You need to add some more conditions to refine this analogy.
At least from your response I know you're also thinking to jump into fire for a stranger is uncalled for. Let's change the "mafia" to "alien" if you will, and you showed enough evidence to make him know everything you said is true. He can't tell anyone because nobody would believe him, not that anybody can help even if they know. Close enough?


Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Assume that: (1)Homura didn't exist and (2)WN won't appear for as long as Madoka is still alive, yet (3)events still played out like we saw until Mami's death, (4)immediately after that QB suddenly had to explain the real mechanism behind MGs and everything about the fate of all previous and future MGs. Now with no need of Madoka sacrificing herself for the town with WN out of the picture and yet Mami still died, do you think it is possible that at this point she would sacrifice herself to save every MGs she doesn't even know? My guess is she won't.
Given that QB give her enough flashbacks and let the agony of thousands of girls overwhelm Madoka's little heart.

How sure are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
However, my view is that actually finding enough reason and confidence to do things is actually a growth in itself.
And that's where we agree to disagree.

A while ago, I refused to give a beggar some money because he looked healthy enough to work. Several days after that, I happened to see him in a run down gas station, trying to keep his children warm during winter with only some thin clothes. There I gave him some food and all money I have with me.

Did I grow?

My answer is no. I wasn't immature by refusing him the first time we met. The money I have, I worked hard to earn them myself. But when I saw him and his kids seriously need help, I was willing to help. Even if at this gas station is the first time we met, I would still help.

I didn't grow up by finding a reason to help that beggar. I didn't become a better person, I just coincidentally have the chance to prove I'm a good person from the beginning

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
What do you think would happen if Madoka became an MG alone (every other character doesn't appear) and later discovered the mechanisms beyond it by herself?


I wasn't sure what you wanted to ask. If Madoka already spent her wish, what else could she do to make a miracle even if she felt sorry for her fate and all MG's fate? She's strong-willed, she will continue to fight witches and protect everyone like Mami did until the day she dies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Also, how do you explain the stark difference of the outcome of the last timeline(every MG and the Earth is saved) and the one before that (every MG and Earth is doomed)?
Information.
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Old 2011-10-03, 01:01   Link #224
sa547
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Hey... We forgot one thing for today... A greeting from her neighbors:

Happy Birthday, Madoka!
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Old 2011-10-03, 01:47   Link #225
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Happy birthday Madoka!

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Old 2011-10-04, 01:48   Link #226
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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i'm quite late but happy bday madoka-kamisama!!!!
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Old 2011-10-07, 10:16   Link #227
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Happy birthday Kaname-san.
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Old 2011-10-09, 15:37   Link #228
Dr. Casey
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Happy 15th birthday Madoka, even if you're on another plane of existence and won't be able to celebrate your birthday this year.

Last edited by Dr. Casey; 2011-10-09 at 16:26.
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Old 2011-10-09, 17:16   Link #229
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She'll celebrate it just fine. After all, Homura's running around and she's always being watched.
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Old 2011-10-10, 04:57   Link #230
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Well, I'm one week late, but I'm sure Madoka wouldn't mind.

Happy birthday, Madoka! I wasn't sold on you in the beginning, but you turned out to be a very respectable and lovable character.

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Old 2011-12-28, 03:43   Link #231
O.D.
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Am I the only one who didn't like Madoka's final wish in the slightest?

Madoka had the opportunity to remove all the negative aspects of the Magical Girl system by telling Kyuubey to make her an omnipotent god and then changing whatever she wants in the Universe. However, she decided to solve only a single problem by becoming a pretty much useless force of nature.

Kinda foolish, if you ask me.
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Old 2011-12-28, 04:52   Link #232
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What you're proposing is effectively "I wish for infinite wishes", which is never allowed. Furthermore, the laws of magic make it so that the good and bad of a wish are equal. Trying to make everything perfect is likely to cause the exact opposite to happen.

That, and the power of the wish comes from earnest intentions. Madoka trying to cheat the system wouldn't be as potent or powerful as acting on her feelings and sincere desires.

As for useless, well, speak for yourself. She gives Magical Girls an afterlife, a chance to undo their contracts retroactively if they weren't satisfied, and makes it so that girls don't become monsters that undo everything they previously worked for.
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Old 2011-12-28, 07:28   Link #233
O.D.
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Quote:
What you're proposing is effectively "I wish for infinite wishes", which is never allowed.
Why shouldn't it be allowed? Kyuubey said that he can grant any wish whatsoever, so it should be perfectly possible.

Quote:
That, and the power of the wish comes from earnest intentions. Madoka trying to cheat the system wouldn't be as potent or powerful as acting on her feelings and sincere desires.
Madoka wanted to remove the negative aspects of the Magical System no matter what, so I doubt that becoming an omnipotent god, which is basically the best solution to her problem, wouldn't have naturally come from her "earnest intentions".
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Old 2011-12-28, 07:56   Link #234
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Originally Posted by O.D. View Post
Why shouldn't it be allowed? Kyuubey said that he can grant any wish whatsoever, so it should be perfectly possible.
.
Kyuubey cannot grant wished,he just the medium, it the girl's karma and misfortune to make wish come true and also define how strong the magical girl is, a wish will use all the karma that the girl have. someone like sayaka cannot wish what madoka wished for because her karma and misfortune is small (dumped by her crush, her death just what she done to herself so that doesn't count) and she also weak as a magical girl, while madoka has died countless times so her karma and misfortune is large, that why she can wished for anything but if she used all her karma, she cannot wish anymore. and as you can see, she also get stronger each timeline (TL1: killed by the witch,TL2 & TL3: use up all her power to defeat Walpurgis and become a witch, TL4: 1HKO Walpurgis but still become a witch afterward, and she died more than those 4 timeline as stated by Gen)
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Old 2011-12-28, 14:58   Link #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O.D. View Post
Am I the only one who didn't like Madoka's final wish in the slightest?

Madoka had the opportunity to remove all the negative aspects of the Magical Girl system by telling Kyuubey to make her an omnipotent god and then changing whatever she wants in the Universe. However, she decided to solve only a single problem by becoming a pretty much useless force of nature.

Kinda foolish, if you ask me.
She couldn't remove the system entirely, if Kyubey is to be believed. The reason is that it would send humanity back to the stone age. The next best solution would be to remove the worst consequence of the system, which is becoming a Witch. This doesn't remove the point of the system, which is to collect energy for the universe, nor does it remove the problem of what happens when you run out of magic (death), however the new system is far preferable to becoming a monster and killing the people you were trying to protect.

Quote:
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someone like sayaka cannot wish what madoka wished for because her karma and misfortune is small (dumped by her crush, her death just what she done to herself so that doesn't count) and she also weak as a magical girl
Sayaka can't wish for what Madoka wished for because she didn't have the natural talent Madoka had. Even in the other timelines, Madoka eclipsed the other girls, even Mami, in raw potential.

What Homura's time loops did was create the potential for Madoka to wish for something so powerful it could warp reality itself. It's possible she always had this potential but "squandered" it in previous loops by making "smaller" wishes. It's the culmination of events in this timeline that really create the wish Madoka made, simply put she had the benefit of seeing firsthand the consequences of the system before she made her choice, which she didn't have such knowledge of in previous loops.

I would argue however that all of the girls, due to their intertwining fates, grew stronger as a result of Homura's loops. The problem with Sayaka is that Homura had become so isolated and focused on rescuing Madoka that she miscalculated that Sayaka would contract as well. Remember that Sayaka doesn't contract in every loop, so it was more logical for Homura to worry about Madoka than Sayaka. This nearly backfires on her a few times in the anime, as Kyubey then tries to use Sayaka to get Madoka to contract. Once that fails (because of Sayaka becoming a Witch), he then switches to directly appealing to Madoka's compassion (the entropy speech) even though we see in one of Homura's loops he couldn't care less about what happens to any of the girls or humanity itself.
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Old 2011-12-29, 04:43   Link #236
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Why shouldn't it be allowed? Kyuubey said that he can grant any wish whatsoever, so it should be perfectly possible.
Wishing for more wishes is generally never allowed in fiction.

Also, there's a difference between "doing anything" and "doing anything as many times as you want."

Quote:
Madoka wanted to remove the negative aspects of the Magical System no matter what, so I doubt that becoming an omnipotent god, which is basically the best solution to her problem, wouldn't have naturally come from her "earnest intentions".
And...she did that. The system is almost exactly the system of justice Mami and Sayaka believed it was. What's the downside, really? That they fight? They agreed to do that. That they die? Tough luck, everyone dies.
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Old 2012-07-26, 05:58   Link #237
shanazumi01
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Madoka's wishes
save a cat whom had just died in front of her (TL1), save Homura from Walpurgisnacht (TL4), and release Magical Girls in the past and future from their cursed fate of becoming witches (Episode 12)
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Old 2012-10-02, 22:56   Link #238
Kimidori
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it seem like no one here remembered this yet but anyway...

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Old 2012-10-02, 23:06   Link #239
Kirito
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I forgot about that. Waver's born on the same day as Madoka interesting.
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Old 2013-10-03, 05:05   Link #240
MartianMage
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Happy Birthday Mado-tan!

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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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