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Old 2012-10-01, 21:58   Link #21
NoemiChan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Swords = honorable and requires skill, you need years to be a master. More exciting to see.
Guns = cowardly. Just face person and shoot, even a civilian can shoot one. Just shoot person.
I think that's not really the case, if its gun versus gun.. their is no cowardliness in that, I think its more of which has more chance of winning in a duel.

A gunner defeats a swordsman is not something to be proud of, its not unsual and is expected. But when a swordsman wins against a gun then that will make crowd roar.
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Old 2012-10-01, 22:01   Link #22
Ithekro
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Depends on the fight. An overly showy swordsman getting dropped by a pistol usually gets a cheer (Raider of the Lost Ark).
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Old 2012-10-01, 23:37   Link #23
SuzushinaYuriko
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Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
I thought in fiction everywhere, not limited to just japan, Heroes Prefer Swords?
Yep, Katana are just better.
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Old 2012-10-02, 00:32   Link #24
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American films are obsessed with guns.
Chinese films are obsessed with kung-fu.
Japan is obsessed with katanas.

I don't undestand how that could puzzle you in any way.


@bhl88
Japanese fiction doesn't view guns as cowardly. That sentiment is actually stronger in American fandom than Japan.
In fact, due to guns being outlawed in Japan, they actually fascinate a large number of otakus.


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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
I have strong doubt over that one...Katana is sharp, but highly fragile. Given Japan had terrible metal ores throughout its years. Also, there is also matter of the armor, since most Japanese armor are bambo and Lamar against full western steel and chain mail.
Oh for lord's sake, it's a MAGIC blade made out of MAGIC blacksmithing in a fantasy world full of MAGIC.
Stop thinking logic, you'll just hurt your brain.
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Old 2012-10-02, 00:46   Link #25
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Also, there is also matter of the armor, since most Japanese armor are bambo and Lamar against
Ignoring the fact that it's a magic setting aside and thus physics don't apply...


This is a common misconception. Samurai armour is largely made of lacquered metal plates riveted and woven together
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Old 2012-10-02, 06:39   Link #26
DonQuigleone
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I personally would like to see a lot more maces, pikes, halberds, flails, warhammers... Much cooler then a sword.
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Old 2012-10-02, 08:14   Link #27
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Ignoring the fact that it's a magic setting aside and thus physics don't apply...


This is a common misconception. Samurai armour is largely made of lacquered metal plates riveted and woven together

Oh, I thought the original person who said katana slice through butter was taking in a real life setting.

Just read the sacred blacksmith manga, it is OK, but I find it funny that other girl with a rapier still has to swing it like a katana :3 (you don't slash with a rapier damnit )
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Old 2012-10-02, 14:27   Link #28
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Oh, I thought the original person who said katana slice through butter was taking in a real life setting.

Just read the sacred blacksmith manga, it is OK, but I find it funny that other girl with a rapier still has to swing it like a katana :3 (you don't slash with a rapier damnit )
Not saying you are wrong but, a little bit of technical info on rapier fighting.

Technically speaking, the rapiers of renaissance Europe were considerably thicker and more substantial than the foils and epees that we modern fencers use today. It WAS possible to slash, although a slash from a rapier could only wound the softest, most sensitive parts of your anatomy.

Thus, as you say, you'd never swing a rapier like a katana. A rapier slash would be more like a slight, jerking, sideways motion applied after, or slightly before the end of a thrust. For example, one could aim a thrust at the shoulder and then, before it hits, jerk the sword slightly towards the throat, to slash at it. It was this rapid ability to move that made the rapier so deadly (IMO preferable to a Katana in a 1 v 1 duel, not that a katana would be totally mismatched)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
This is a common misconception. Samurai armour is largely made of lacquered metal plates riveted and woven together
As you say, Japanese scale armor is much stronger than people realize, and considering the mobility it gives you, is in many ways more effective than European plate. But it actually is possible to cut through it. It's even possible to cut through the crown of a Kabuto, with a good katana. You probably know that battlefield katana (these are sometimes classified as Nodachi and O-Katana) were often significantly larger and heavier than Edo period Katana which were used off the battlefield.

Also, remember that the properly wielded Katana does not only cut or chop, but also slices. When you cut something, you are merely using the pressure to split something in half (such as when you split would). When you slice something, you are actually pulling the blade laterally along the cut, and thus in a sense, briefly sawing it in one direction. When you slice like this at high speeds, the effect is dramatic, but it is much harder to do than merely chopping something. (like it would take you years probably to learn how to slice with a katana).

At any rate, if it's not obvious from the last two paragraphs, slicing through armor, while possible, is something that only a real master swordsman was capable of doing with impunity. Most people, if they were forced to fight an armored opponent with their Katana, would instead aim for the weak points in their opponents armor (the hands, the joints, the face, the legs, beneath the skirt). Not only is it hard to cut armor, but if you fail at the cut, your sword and hands will be messed up.

This is why everyone preferred spears, because it is super easy to stab someone through their armor with a spear. Hell, I guarantee that most people on this forum could probably stab through Japanese armor with a spear. That's why you could jut give thousands of them to huge armies of ashigaru with little training and still be effective. Swords are especially hard to use and even among swords, I would say the Katana has the most difficult technique to master.

Anyways, here's a link to kabutowari, lest you believe I'm selling you a bill of goods: http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html
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Old 2012-10-02, 18:24   Link #29
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Spears are one of the most practical weapons throughout human history-- it could arguably be said to have been the ak47 of its time. It was cheap and efficient which gave you decent reach; you just needed to make it pointy enough and hand them out to whoever was defending the village at the time. Boring, but practical; the spear has been used for a variety of purposes from being a way to hunt wild animals without getting your hand bitten off to defending your home from raving bandits and armies.

Which doesn't make for good entertainment. Same goes with the bow; it just doesn't have that kind of theatrical conflict sense when you just take them out from afar. This is why RPGs will feature swords in games that already have guns and advanced technology.

It's the same reason why nuclear weapons are so weak relatively speaking in games like Starcraft. If you could just arbitrarily obliterate the other side with a few button presses; it wouldn't be fun or engaging. Or why they just don't shoot the hero.

The sword on the other hand is nice and shiny, makes clanging sounds, and not everyone has the strength and skill to use it properly. One can just think about western knights in shining armor yielding a sword on a horse. It just looks like they are ready for battle. Sure, it didn't take long before that heavy unwieldy armor just made them giant targets, but hey, it looks cool! At their height, it was also extremely intimidating since it looks very imposing when the enemy has superior armor and is too cool to use what you consider standard weapons. Swords weren't the first things to be used when entering a fight-- they were meant for close quarters combat, which is naturally more personal. Since a mainstay of many anime (or anything really) with fights is the Climactic Pissing Contest between Protagonist and Antagonist ™, we need more shiny effects and sounds. It must be personal and intense.

But due to style, and the fact that Samurai and Knights were greatly romanticized to be honorable and shit, the sword remains a symbol to this very day. Not the best or most practical weapon, but it's what the weapon stands for-- an elite warrior with honor and skill. And anime has a tendency to make abstract things literal. From oversized mecha to oversized boobs, many anime have preferred style over practicality.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2012-10-02 at 18:45.
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Old 2012-10-02, 20:46   Link #30
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
I think that's not really the case, if its gun versus gun.. their is no cowardliness in that, I think its more of which has more chance of winning in a duel.

A gunner defeats a swordsman is not something to be proud of, its not unsual and is expected. But when a swordsman wins against a gun then that will make crowd roar.
So a 90 pound 15 years girl with a gun defending her family from a 200 pound man in armor and a sword is not heroic?

I personally think Gun is the great equalizer in warfare, allowing the weak and infirm compete with the so called "strong"

On other hand, I could see why sword fights are more exciting. Anime/manga need time to fill up frames/minutes....if after 20 frames and 10 minutes of show no one get hit, it make the hero and the villain look like idiots.
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Old 2012-10-02, 21:20   Link #31
Ithekro
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Old 2012-10-02, 23:01   Link #32
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Personally, I have more fascination with the naginata/engetsutou. I blame Shizuru from Mai-Hime for that. Unlike spears or halberds or other polearm weapons, there is a certain...elegance in this weapon, both in looks and how it is wielded. Also, it seems that unlike the bread&butter spears, you need more proper training in using these, similar to swords.
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Old 2012-10-03, 02:40   Link #33
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Personally, I have more fascination with the naginata/engetsutou. I blame Shizuru from Mai-Hime for that. Unlike spears or halberds or other polearm weapons, there is a certain...elegance in this weapon, both in looks and how it is wielded. Also, it seems that unlike the bread&butter spears, you need more proper training in using these, similar to swords.
I call BS, you like it CUZ BEWBS.

Jokes aside, you gotta admit being prominently female CQC adds elegance to the impression.
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Old 2012-10-03, 04:10   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
So a 90 pound 15 years girl with a gun defending her family from a 200 pound man in armor and a sword is not heroic?
What anime did that scene occurred???
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Old 2012-10-03, 08:56   Link #35
ArchmageXin
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What anime did that scene occurred???
probably never, given how is always sword > gun.

Since your statement seem to imply in general rather than anime only.
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Old 2012-10-03, 09:07   Link #36
NoemiChan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
probably never, given how is always sword > gun.

Since your statement seem to imply in general rather than anime only.
Lols.. we're talking anime!!!
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Old 2012-10-03, 09:16   Link #37
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
probably never, given how is always sword > gun.

Since your statement seem to imply in general rather than anime only.
true, if a fictional work have main char use sword as his/her main weapon in modern or fantasy setting, Guns Are Worthless
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Old 2012-10-03, 09:19   Link #38
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Not sure if mentioned, but gun control is very strict in Japan, leading to people being more familiar with swords (you can easily keep one if you have a license). It's a major factor aside from historical reasons.
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Old 2012-10-03, 21:39   Link #39
ArchmageXin
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Not sure if mentioned, but gun control is very strict in Japan, leading to people being more familiar with swords (you can easily keep one if you have a license). It's a major factor aside from historical reasons.
Ah, I see.

Well, I still blame reading Kenshin as a kid. Watching everyone groaning every 5 seconds on war is no longer heroic or civilized, and how guns will "ruin battlefields" made me think Japanese must have some kind of weird sword fetish.

Now to think about it, it applied to everyone else's fiction with swords as well.~

I withdraw my arguments.
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Old 2012-10-03, 22:03   Link #40
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Well, I still blame reading Kenshin as a kid. Watching everyone groaning every 5 seconds on war is no longer heroic or civilized, and how guns will "ruin battlefields" made me think Japanese must have some kind of weird sword fetish.
People who groan about how "war is no longer heroic or civilised" have very likely never fought in one.

It's the one thing I've always disliked about many war stories and, fortunately, it's a problem that rarely shows up nowadays.
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