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Old 2012-10-03, 09:33   Link #321
Alastor Mobius Toth
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Personally, I'd think both Raptor and Black Widow would be a cut above Type-00. Raptor has less CQC advantage, but it has thrust and stealth.

Spoiler for For that one moment in VN:


YF-23 has that too...and CQC capacity. Probably not as good as Type-00s, but still better than Raptors.

The whole dislike thing among American brass over YF-23 is both because no-one likes their doctrine proved to be ineffective, but also because America has...little institutionalized CQC TSF training as other nations do. Both Japan and U.N Pacific Army place it pretty high up on their curriculum, as probably do Soviets and Europeans. For Americans to adopt YF-23, you'd need to adjust entire pilot training scheme...for one TSF, which will probably never constitute entirety of American TSF force.

Which brings us to another point: cost-effectiveness. YF-23 is awesome, but it's also rather cost-inefficient. It's operating time is shorter then Raptor's, it's maintenance more expensive, and it's purchase prize is also more expensive. America is rich in Muv-Luv, but not *that* rich, else we wouldn't have F-16.

Which is why it's in my opinion that YF-23 would suck as a mainstay of U.S Force. It would be like German Tiger tank in WWII - awesome, but too expensive to be fielded en-masse, with short range and being very intensive on your resources. That's before we factor in that Black Widow's would probably operate across the globe if they were put into anti-BETA operations.

Now, for example, the Black Widow would be *good* for specialized units that would have to engage BETA in close quarters by necessity...like Orbital Divers or Marines. But it most certainly won't replace F-22 as 3rd Generation mainstay, especially since it doesn't seem like F-22 will be completely replacing F-15E anytime soon either.
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Old 2012-10-03, 09:35   Link #322
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellis View Post
Could the YF-23 fit American doctrine well regarding its BETA fighting doctrine? It seems like it can do anti-BETA and anti-TSF fighting equally well. I wonder if things, like the performance of American forces during the Japanese coup, would've changed if the F-23 had been the TSF accepted and deployed to Japan during the coup?
It wouldn't really have affected anything much.

The ATSF flyoffs between the YF-23 and YF-22 demonstrated a number of things: firstly, when it came to shooting and stealth, both TSFs had a similar level of performance, which exceeded that of the F-15. Secondly, the YF-23 was a hangar queen compared to the YF-22; it had longer maintenance downtime, and was more difficult and cost more to maintain, compared to the YF-22. (Note that for IRL Project ATF, similar issues befell the YF-23 prototypes; part of the reason the YF-22 was selected by USAF was because Lockheed completed more test and demonstration sorties while Northrop's boys were fixing up the YF-23.)

As for fitting into US combat doctrine, the YF-23 represented a radical shift in doctrine; American doctrine, ever since the F-4 was deployed, focused on dakka as the primary weapon against BETA, with melee being a secondary priority - the reasonable thinking was that you do not want to play to the strengths of your enemy. At the same time, however, the YF-23 team realised that sooner or later you run out of ammo, and having better melee abilities would be very useful in that regard. It's telling that according to TSFiA, the YF-23 was consistently able to defeat the YF-22 in close combat.

Integrating the YF-22 into existing US forces would have been less of a doctrine issue than the YF-23, as it slots neatly into existing US doctrine (do more of what you do, only better, with stealth!); deploying the YF-23 would have forced the US to come up with a new doctrine, which is not a small thing to do.

To be honest, though, there would have been little difference in results, whether Walken's battalion had been equipped with F-22s or F-23s.

Spoiler for Significant Spoiler on performance of Hunter Battalion's F-22A Raptors in the 12/5 Coup:


Edit: lol, ninja'ed by everyone. ;D

Edit 2: What I could see, perhaps, is something similar to the aftermath of Macross Plus, which had the Advanced Variable Fighter Project - a flyoff between variable fighters, one that was a bit more down to earth (Raptor-inspired) and what was practically a YF-23 expy (the YF-21). YF-21 lost the competition to be the UN Spacy's main variable fighter, which the YF-19 won (mind you, getting the sole prototype blown up probably didn't help General Galaxy's case), but it did win a contract to become a special operations fighter (albeit simplified and toned down into the VF-22 version, which was more practical to operate, while still having a similar level of combat performance to the prototype). The VF-19 and variants became mainline fighters, while the VF-22 was assigned to special forces.

That said, Alternative US is admittedly not rich enough to buy two new 3rd Gen TSFs. The YF-23 would be an awesome Orbital Diver machine and hive fighter, as Alastor Toth Mobius posted above, but the F-22A is the best compromise between a cutting edge next-gen TSF and something affordable that won't sideline too many squadrons for too long as they adjust to doctrine shift and spend time at Replacement Training Units (or Fleet Replacement Squadrons for the Navy).
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Old 2012-10-03, 09:43   Link #323
Alastor Mobius Toth
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Them internet connections and timezones.


Hahaha, yeah.
To be honest, I like YF-23, but sometimes I feel like too many people put on pedestal purely because of combat results. Which is fine and all, but as history demonstrated, that's not necessarily everything (American Sherman and Soviet T-34 come to mind); and "The Matter of Honor" segment of TSFiA gives quite a few logical arguments at to why ATSF made the decision it did.

And incidentally, new Comet segment is out. As promised, it has Hogs.
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Old 2012-10-03, 10:19   Link #324
MrTerrorist
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MuvLuv: Comet Chapter 7

Spoiler for Ch 7:
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Old 2012-10-03, 10:53   Link #325
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All these fics puts me to shame. Its too damn good!!
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Old 2012-10-03, 10:58   Link #326
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth View Post
Them internet connections and timezones.

Hahaha, yeah.
To be honest, I like YF-23, but sometimes I feel like too many people put on pedestal purely because of combat results. Which is fine and all, but as history demonstrated, that's not necessarily everything (American Sherman and Soviet T-34 come to mind); and "The Matter of Honor" segment of TSFiA gives quite a few logical arguments at to why ATSF made the decision it did.

And incidentally, new Comet segment is out. As promised, it has Hogs.
^ Exactly. Well said.

There is no point in having an awesome BETA killing machine, if you cannot deploy your awesome BETA killing machine because it is undergoing maintenance.

Spoiler for That would be the most inglorious death ever::


Also, FUCK YES HOGS. I gather Old Snake is supposed to be Big Boss, though when I saw that I immediately thought of Bruce Crandall instead, probably because I'd just recently watched We Were Soldiers.
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Old 2012-10-03, 11:19   Link #327
EagleBlue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth View Post
Them internet connections and timezones.


Hahaha, yeah.
To be honest, I like YF-23, but sometimes I feel like too many people put on pedestal purely because of combat results. Which is fine and all, but as history demonstrated, that's not necessarily everything (American Sherman and Soviet T-34 come to mind); and "The Matter of Honor" segment of TSFiA gives quite a few logical arguments at to why ATSF made the decision it did.

And incidentally, new Comet segment is out. As promised, it has Hogs.
It is still a shame to see the YF-23 just being stored away not being useful for anything except being turned into scrap. I would have been every happy even if they just put the YF-23 in limited production like the Shiranui Type-1C but that's for Japan.

I wish that more TSFs had the ability to mount six weapons like the YF-23. Admittedly it would have been expensive but it will at the very least, it does mean that pilots have more ammo or guns to bring to the fight.

On Comet:

Another great chapter. The one thing I really like in Comet right now is Max. Always fun to see him talking to Yuuya or anyone else. I kind of wanted to see more of Bishop or Alice interacting with Yuuya though.
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Old 2012-10-03, 14:07   Link #328
wellis
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Alastor mentioned one group that fights the BETA in close quarters are the Marines. Is USMC doctrine different from the other US Armed Forces' doctrines?
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Old 2012-10-03, 14:25   Link #329
EagleBlue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellis View Post
Alastor mentioned one group that fights the BETA in close quarters are the Marines. Is USMC doctrine different from the other US Armed Forces' doctrines?
The American doctrine in MuvLuv focuses on bring their firepower at range and not going for close combat. Most American TSFs are only armed with a Dagger for melee. America is the only one that can supply their forces with enough ammo for the most part and they haven't really fought the BETA yet barring a few of their forces sent overseas.

Last edited by EagleBlue; 2012-10-03 at 14:52.
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Old 2012-10-03, 20:09   Link #330
erakk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBlue View Post

On Comet:

Another great chapter. The one thing I really like in Comet right now is Max. Always fun to see him talking to Yuuya or anyone else. I kind of wanted to see more of Bishop or Alice interacting with Yuuya though.
Took the words off my mouth.
I'm enjoying Leon being put in his place, Sharon surprised buy his badass mature behaviour, Max seems like a big brother and we want more Alice!!!!

I also want Yui.
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Old 2012-10-04, 23:24   Link #331
kaizerknight01
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one last loop had been updated

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7112821/...-into-the-Loop
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Old 2012-10-05, 00:34   Link #332
John117xCortana
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Oh no, not Yuuhi too....

And an epilogue next ? Don't tell me that the story is over !!?
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Old 2012-10-05, 04:54   Link #333
Dragonkid11
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Well,he had been burn to the point being a human charcoal before after being CARPET BOMBED and survive,so I'm sure a SD-11 is not gonna kill him

Also...Yuuhi....well....a 36mm round would indeed pulverize a human body but I'm sure that a huge robot can't aim that well at something that small...right?
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Old 2012-10-05, 06:21   Link #334
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Since it seem that Takeru manage to block it (a little), I think the shot might missed him but still manage to damage the building, hence the fire. Maybe she'll experience some burns but it's possible that she'll survive.

Now that I think about it, many main female characters seems to get fatal injury in this arc
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Old 2012-10-05, 11:14   Link #335
Dragonkid11
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Now that I think about it, many main female characters seems to get fatal injury in this arc
And they are sisters too...
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Old 2012-10-05, 11:23   Link #336
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After watching a few MADs and trailers, I had the inspiration to do this.

Spoiler for Promotion:
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Old 2012-10-05, 11:40   Link #337
MrTerrorist
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^Another idea for your PMC fanfic?
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Old 2012-10-05, 11:43   Link #338
John117xCortana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonkid11 View Post
Well,he had been burn to the point being a human charcoal before after being CARPET BOMBED and survive,so I'm sure a SD-11 is not gonna kill him

Also...Yuuhi....well....a 36mm round would indeed pulverize a human body but I'm sure that a huge robot can't aim that well at something that small...right?
They can one shot Tank class BETA just fine.

Also a 36mm round ? I thought it was a 120mm since it caused an explosion like that.

Is it me or did Ikaruga's reason for doing this sounds a lot like our opinion about how stupid it is to think things like national interests in the face of extinction ?
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Old 2012-10-06, 03:18   Link #339
Dragonkid11
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Originally Posted by John117xCortana View Post
They can one shot Tank class BETA just fine.

Also a 36mm round ? I thought it was a 120mm since it caused an explosion like that.

Is it me or did Ikaruga's reason for doing this sounds a lot like our opinion about how stupid it is to think things like national interests in the face of extinction ?
Except we are not in a giant robot and lose our sanity?Yeah
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Old 2012-10-06, 03:24   Link #340
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Ikaruga basically surrendered to despair didn't he ?
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