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Old 2012-10-03, 12:04   Link #61
MysticNinjaJay
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Now we're getting somewhere.

It looks like one of my predictions came true.

Obito has the ability to see through his Sharingan eye which is possessed by Kakashi. With this ability he could spy on any activity Kakashi happens to be involved in so long as the Sharingan is exposed. It's pretty clear that Kakash killed the real Rin. I'm guessing that some kind of deception or manipulation by the Mist ninja caused this. I wonder what role Obito will take in this situation since he is at the battlefield.
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Old 2012-10-03, 12:13   Link #62
Black-Cat-Sama
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Originally Posted by Kenu View Post
For me it's another hack no jutsu.. Kishimoto originally had Kakashi letting Rin die.. but now he's changed it so Kakashi actually killed Rin.

I think it's better to have Kakashi being unable to save Rin or unable to sacrifice himself to save Rin for example.. than Kakashi directly killing Rin. This would add more emphasis on Obito's "You let Rin die!" statement.
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Originally Posted by BlueCosmos View Post
This would be a big F@$k You! To all the readers in my opinion.
Kishi: I know for the last 5 chapters obito said you let rin die, but disregard that. Now its You killed rin

I think it's either madara with Ashton kutcher punking obito
Madara is hooked up to the tree which is also connected to zetsu, they all share info
Madar might be asleep but he knows what is going on, and the only reason obito knows what's going on Is zetsu's doing It's an episode of punk'ed I'm telling you
In Kishi's defense, the whole manga has been that since Deidara's death (where Tobi starts trolling identity with 'Madara' ness and whatnot).

I agree that Kakashi 'letting Rin die' would hold more impact than him just straight up killing her, unless Kakashi's death blow was because he was in an illusion and was cocky in thinking he could beat all his opponents--then I'll let it slide.

But w/ez, looks like we can't take most statements, words and thoughts seriously anymore, they might get changed way later. Still better than itachi's retcon though..
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Old 2012-10-03, 12:29   Link #63
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama View Post
But w/ez, looks like we can't take most statements, words and thoughts seriously anymore, they might get changed way later.
except that in this case it's not way later. obito literally said 'you let rin die' in ch 600. there's no way kishi didn't know where he was going with this flashback only a couple chapters ago. therefore there are only 2 options. either what we're seeing is a genjutsu or some kind of other trick like a zetsu clone of rin and the real rin died some other way that kakashi couldn't help, or kishi purposely wrote bs for no real reason. if it's the latter then wtf...
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Old 2012-10-03, 13:28   Link #64
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
except that in this case it's not way later. obito literally said 'you let rin die' in ch 600.
This is a pointless debate about something that could be either a mistranslation of a more generally applicable japanese sentence or Obito does not regard Kakashi as Rin's killer. Kakashi never wanted to kill Rin, so even if he caused her death as we see on the last page it wasn't his doing.
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Old 2012-10-03, 13:35   Link #65
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
This is a pointless debate about something that could be either a mistranslation of a more generally applicable japanese sentence or Obito does not regard Kakashi as Rin's killer. Kakashi never wanted to kill Rin, so even if he caused her death as we see on the last page it wasn't his doing.
if somebody stabbed your love interest for whatever reason would you then say 'how could you let her die?' no. you would not. it's just not the proper way of thinking about an action. 'letting someone die' is passive, whereas what kakashi is doing here is a clearly active

it's true that we don't know what happened next and that it could all be explained as a zetsu clone of rin or something, but that's the case every week when we talk about the current chapter. that's the whole point of most of these discussions. discussing what might happen and what things might mean. there's no point in discussing facts that everyone knows. like kamui being a MS technique for instance

if it's a mis-translation then its a moot point. i can only talk about what i see. not what the words might mean in their original language
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Old 2012-10-03, 15:28   Link #66
Sinta
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Which is obviously horse **** spend all your time in front of a grave of a friend and then ignore his dying wish. Obviously Obito is getting bamboozled. (Really I just wanted to write bamboozled)
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Old 2012-10-03, 15:35   Link #67
Black-Cat-Sama
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
except that in this case it's not way later. obito literally said 'you let rin die' in ch 600. there's no way kishi didn't know where he was going with this flashback only a couple chapters ago. therefore there are only 2 options. either what we're seeing is a genjutsu or some kind of other trick like a zetsu clone of rin and the real rin died some other way that kakashi couldn't help, or kishi purposely wrote bs for no real reason. if it's the latter then wtf...
I was also applying the last time Rin's death was brought up, which was when kakashi was in 'limbo' or w/e. The way he spoke there was as if he screwed up, or couldn't do anything to prevent Rin's death, like he ruined the promise he had made with Obito.

(It's been a while since I looked back that far and read that specific chapter, so maybe I'm wrong, but that's something that stuck with me.) So Kakashi 'killing Rin' like we're seeing now, seems way outta left field...OR....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
This is a pointless debate about something that could be either a mistranslation of a more generally applicable japanese sentence or Obito does not regard Kakashi as Rin's killer. Kakashi never wanted to kill Rin, so even if he caused her death as we see on the last page it wasn't his doing.
...this. I was just about to mention the fact that 'you let rin die' vs. 'you killed rin' vs. any other variation of that detail could just have been a translator thing, or something else. What Obito was saying and what he meant/what we read vs what was implied are very different things...all we know, Rin is dead, Obito blames Kakashi and what we're seeing is playing out to go that way.
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Old 2012-10-03, 16:03   Link #68
ShadowUchiha
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I think we can say that Obito is able to see through "his" other sharingan. There may be requirements to this, but it seems that is the case.

I also find it strange that Obito says "You let Rin die." but clearly Kakashi chidori'd her.

Madara is likely involved in this incident. Maybe via his control over the Mizukagi, maybe through Zetsu, maybe via controlling Kakashi.

Personally I think Naruto is going to get Sasuke's eyes, and Sasuke's death is also going to trigger the Rinnegan for Naruto... Naruto will have the Kyuubi removed from him, and he'll survive, just like Kushina did but he'll be passed out/weak. Madara will be in control of the 10 tails and all the power that entails, but Sasuke will step in and protect Naruto who was about to be killed by Madara in his fully powered state now that he's got the 10 tails. Madara kicks Sasuke's ass but someone unexpected jumps in long enough for Sakura to implant Sasuke's eyes into Naruto before he dies, so that he can "live on" through Naruto. Naruto awakens to his new eyes(his old ones were probably damaged) and sees Sasuke, assesses what happens, and turns into the Sage of Six Paths. Epic battle between Naruto and Madara ensues.

Pardon the big post.
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Old 2012-10-03, 16:05   Link #69
b1gdawg
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I really doubt Madara had anything to do with this. He's trying to get Obito to follow his plan, but i don't think he would have to Stage such a play just to convince Obito to join his side. That doesn't seem to be Madara's style, to me anyway. All signs are pointing to it, because, why would Zetsu even tell Obito that they were in danger.

Madara is so confident in his image of the world, I think he would feel that he doesn't NEED to fake this to convince somebody.
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Old 2012-10-03, 16:12   Link #70
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that's the whole point of most of these discussions.
I just don't see how can this be discussed since one side of the discussion says that the author is a complete idiot, which obviously is not true so there's nothing to discuss there. I mean we can discuss how both Obito's sentence and the last page can be real by having theories about Zetsu clones or translation errors or whatever, but discussing if the author is idiot or not is pointless. Maybe you're wasting your time defending the author against such trolling, but i don't want to ruin your fun
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Old 2012-10-03, 16:22   Link #71
Amata Sora
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Though this may seem a little off topic, they should have resurrected Jiraiya.
Naruto v Jiraiya would've been an awesome battle.
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Old 2012-10-03, 17:44   Link #72
james0246
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^Jiraiya isn't even close to being a threat to Naruto anymore. He can't use Senjutsu without the aid of the Toads (which they would not give him), and his strongest attacks would be shrugged off or simply avoided with the Kyuubi shroud. A fight with Itachi would have been interesting, but that would require Kishimoto to besmirch Itachi's name.
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Old 2012-10-03, 18:28   Link #73
b1gdawg
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Originally Posted by Amata Sora View Post
Though this may seem a little off topic, they should have resurrected Jiraiya.
Naruto v Jiraiya would've been an awesome battle.
Kabuto said he couldn't revive Jiraiya since his body was crushed at the bottom of the ocean he died in. Not really a good reason but nobody really wanted to see Jiraiya as a bad guy. He also couldn't revive Shisui and Danzo.
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Old 2012-10-03, 20:04   Link #74
Methuselah
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Originally Posted by b1gdawg View Post
Kabuto said he couldn't revive Jiraiya since his body was crushed at the bottom of the ocean he died in. Not really a good reason but nobody really wanted to see Jiraiya as a bad guy. He also couldn't revive Shisui and Danzo.
Why didn't he revive the 5th Hokage that Orochimaru killed?
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Old 2012-10-03, 20:10   Link #75
b1gdawg
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Originally Posted by Methuselah View Post
Why didn't he revive the 5th Hokage that Orochimaru killed?
uhm... the 5th hokage is Tsunade...

You're talking about the 3rd hokage (Sandaime) and he wasn't killed by Orochimaru, he killed himself to seal Orochimaru's arms, along with the 1st, 2nd, and himself. The Fourth Hokage used the same jutsu when he was sealing the Kyuubi inside Naruto. They've explained that their souls are sealed after using that Jutsu, so Kabuto can't revive them.
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Old 2012-10-03, 20:51   Link #76
strategos
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Here is my guess. Kakashi is under some kind of genjutsu. He still hasn't master the sharingan full potential. What Obito saw was all part of the genjustu. He's seeing what Kakashi is seeing. The mist ninja are probably mind f*cking Kakashi, thus Obito seeing everything.
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Old 2012-10-03, 21:59   Link #77
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama View Post
I...this. I was just about to mention the fact that 'you let rin die' vs. 'you killed rin' vs. any other variation of that detail could just have been a translator thing, or something else.
actually obito can't have said something like 'you killed rin'. reason being that the last panel of this chapter was a shocker and intended to be so. it wouldn't have been a surprise if obito would have let the cat out of the bag in ch600. based on this reason, i think the translation is probably accurate which means that either ch600 was misleading and nonsensical on purpose or that what we are seeing in this last panel on 604 is not reality in some way

Quote:
Originally Posted by b1gdawg View Post
Madara is so confident in his image of the world, I think he would feel that he doesn't NEED to fake this to convince somebody.
it's more like manipulation than convincing. assuming madara set all this up, which i think he did, then his end goal is for obito to reach the same conclusion of moon's eye plan on his own. that's what master manipulators do. they make you think that their idea is actually your own idea (like inception). so by destroying obito's psyche by killing his crush at the hands of his best friend, it will then be easy to plant the seeds in his head and watch them grow just the way madara wants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
discussing if the author is idiot or not is pointless. Maybe you're wasting your time defending the author against such trolling, but i don't want to ruin your fun
haha thanks I do find it quite fun, which is why i do it. even though i'll point out inconsistencies or errors, i'll still defend kishi all day long. every great writer makes mistakes. that's what editors and follow-up editions are for. kishi doesn't seem to have the best editor and he's also on much shorter notice than most writers (aside from like tv writers, but then factor in everything else he does as well and his schedule is just nuts)

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Originally Posted by Amata Sora View Post
Though this may seem a little off topic, they should have resurrected Jiraiya.
Naruto v Jiraiya would've been an awesome battle.
i agree, but i thought it should have happened back when pain needed to replace his summoning path. jiraiya seemed like the obvious choice, but kishi ignored the option for some reason and then ignored him in this ET arc as well. my guess is that he just didn't want to bring jiraiya in particular back from the dead for some kind of character arc purity

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Jiraiya isn't even close to being a threat to Naruto anymore.
same could be said about asuma. jiraiya would be one of the resolve-breaking ETs designed for naruto. but jiraiya would also be able to take out some fairly big targets as well. naruto is one of the few good guys who could beat him
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Old 2012-10-03, 22:57   Link #78
Amata Sora
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Jiraiya isn't even close to being a threat to Naruto anymore. He can't use Senjutsu without the aid of the Toads (which they would not give him), and his strongest attacks would be shrugged off or simply avoided with the Kyuubi shroud. A fight with Itachi would have been interesting, but that would require Kishimoto to besmirch Itachi's name.
True, of course i was thinking more along the lines of that letting Jiraiya see how much Naruto has progressed.
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Old 2012-10-03, 23:06   Link #79
iBeast
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I honestly think a healthy Itachi would go toe to toe with current Naruto. I can't picture a healthy Itachi losing to anyone.
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Old 2012-10-04, 17:55   Link #80
Sasukemaru
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Idk why nobody expected kakashi killed rin, i never assumed, anything differently...why else would kakashi and tobi have a ms? Duh..

Anyway this whole tobito thing is still stupid..what's funny is the ppl saying oooh kakashi killed obito's 12 year old crush, now his world domination plans make sense opposed to if she was killed by someone else...uh no, still stupid...

Let's end this, i have a feeling this manga jumped the shark.
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