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Old 2012-10-03, 12:49   Link #41
Ithekro
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Wheeee, Japanimation (so 1990).
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Old 2012-10-03, 15:30   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
We could just go back to Japanimation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Wheeee, Japanimation (so 1990).
Does anyone even speculate on the existence of such a term? Here's my take on it.

I blame American animation for this separation of "cartoon" and "anime".

Back in the day, animation on TV was riddled with American animation: from Looney Tunes, Hanna Barbera, and even some American-Japanese coproductions (Thundercats and Transformers). For the 1980s and beyond, American animation had dominated the animation market. As far as animation was concerned, that was all that people watched.

Those Saturday morning cartoons back then - that was great, especially TMNT. Hell, I even watched the Prostars.

Then here you have - some animation from Japan. Anime was already being brought into the states; but none of them (aside from Robotech) made it to television. For the most part, these are viewed as "foreign" and not part of the normal American animation. Therefore, a name had to be created to separate these Japanese cartoons from the American cartoons people had normally been watching. Of course, you have animation from Japan. The first natural term "Japanimation" came out.

Of course, we all know. The tables have turned through the 1990s and 2000s. "Anime" is the dominant force in animation today, while the former "American animation" is heading downward more and more. "Japanimation" managed to phase out rather quickly in favor of a more trendy word "anime". However, the "Japan" label never went away.
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Old 2012-10-03, 16:29   Link #43
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Originally Posted by NinjaRealist View Post
Ahhh, but there are story themes which seem to pervade 90% of anime, so then would't the collective existence of these themes mean that anime is, in actuality, a genre?
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Originally Posted by NinjaRealist View Post
Yes, I consider hollywood films to be a genre. There are certain stylistic features which define most hollywood films.
What? You consider all anime out there as just one genre? And you also consider all Hollywood movies as just one genre? So, you’re saying movies like Citizen Kane and Transformers are of the same genre?

I’m curious about what exactly do you consider as "genre". Coz, according to your posts, your definition of genre clearly deviates from the original meaning. Might as well not use that term.

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Originally Posted by NinjaRealist View Post
Character Archetypes which are ubiquitous in anime:

Tsundere - The ultimate anime character archetype, needs no explanation

Hot-blooded-fighter: Naruto, Luffy, Natsu, Kenichi, Goku etc.

Bishounen - Again needs no explanation.

Harem Dummy: Basically just a lifeless dummy to be fought over by various hot women. Again, needs no explanation.

Plot Archetypes:

Shounen fighter

Mahou Shoujo

Harem

Mecha

Stylistic Traits:

Stylized character style with spiky, impossibly colored hair, big eyes, and noticeably similar style across 90% of titles.

Over the top expressions, with certain types of faces signifying violence, embarrassment, and despair being popular across most titles.

Detailed background which often feature expressive use of texture and patterns to evoke emotions.

Almost all titles place a great deal of importance upon music and musical sequences, especially the intro and outro.
We call a movie belong to a certain genre because it has the element of that very genre. For example: a movie from the horror genre must have scary-element in it without fail. If it doesn't, it's not from a horror genre at all. So, if you lump all anime into one genre, please name one story element (especially from what you mentioned above) that every anime series has in common.

Note: Just FYI, character archetypes & style does not define a genre. It must be from a story element.
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Old 2012-10-03, 17:02   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
If it doesn't, it's not from a horror genre at all. So, if you lump all anime into one genre, please name one story element (especially from what you mentioned above) that every anime series has in common.
And to anyone who answers "Japanese". You are kidding yourselves. Just sayin'.
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Old 2012-10-03, 17:05   Link #45
Ithekro
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However "Anime" is usually in one section in retail and rental stores, while "Horror", "Action", "Science Fiction", and "Drama" are in seperate sections.
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Old 2012-10-03, 17:10   Link #46
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
However "Anime" is usually in one section in retail and rental stores, while "Horror", "Action", "Science Fiction", and "Drama" are in seperate sections.
Yeah...... and that's why i ended up seeing hentai movies next to the pokemon movies dvd's in a megastore several years ago .
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Old 2012-10-03, 17:14   Link #47
Ithekro
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The clerks don't always pay attention to that sort of think...especially if they only follow what corperate says on the label as to what it is...never mind that it is 18+ and not listed as such. ("Adult" section would fit, but usually it is "Anime" first and no one bothered to check the content)

It's ARIA next to Bible Black...wait, what?
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Old 2012-10-03, 17:24   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
However "Anime" is usually in one section in retail and rental stores, while "Horror", "Action", "Science Fiction", and "Drama" are in seperate sections.
Yea. But guess what's next to it?

Spoiler:


Animation gets separated because it's a different medium than "movies", which has some overlapping genres. Likewise, Video Games may have similar genres as well - but - the nature of that medium needs its own set of genres, that does not apply to movies and animation. So, having said. The terms "genre" and "medium" -- these two ideas overlap each other like a wire mesh.

Nevertheless, I do not advocate grouping up all animation in a disorganized fashion: like mixing up Spongebob in the "anime" category.
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Old 2012-10-03, 17:29   Link #49
Ithekro
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Depends on the store. The Suncoast that use to be around here had the rest of the animation across the and towards the back of the store ("Kids") while the "Anime" was in the middle..closer to "Foreign" and "Sci-Fi". The more adult (not the 18+ "Adult" stuff as don't recall that store having an "Adult" section) themed animation wer usually mixed into whatever section they fit best "Action", "Comedy". "Romance".
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Old 2012-10-03, 17:48   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Depends on the store. The Suncoast that use to be around here had the rest of the animation across the and towards the back of the store ("Kids") while the "Anime" was in the middle..closer to "Foreign" and "Sci-Fi". The more adult (not the 18+ "Adult" stuff as don't recall that store having an "Adult" section) themed animation wer usually mixed into whatever section they fit best "Action", "Comedy". "Romance".
Yeah but "foreign" isn't a genre either so I wouldn't say getting a section in a store really indicates it's a genre.
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Old 2012-10-03, 17:53   Link #51
Ithekro
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Never said it did. That's just how stores seperate stuff.
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Old 2012-10-03, 21:39   Link #52
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I prefer it that way anyways.
Easier to get to crap.

If I'm in a megastore like Fry's I like to browse through anime section to see what's out.
But if it was all mixed? Oh HELL no I ain't got hours to spare looking at every shelf in that massive pile of mess.
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Old 2012-10-04, 13:39   Link #53
Utsuro no Hako
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Then here you have - some animation from Japan. Anime was already being brought into the states; but none of them (aside from Robotech) made it to television.
That's overstating it -- Speed Racer and Astro Boy aired on American TV decades before Robotech, and Star Blazers and Voltron were more or less contemporary with it.

Quote:
Of course, we all know. The tables have turned through the 1990s and 2000s. "Anime" is the dominant force in animation today, while the former "American animation" is heading downward more and more. "Japanimation" managed to phase out rather quickly in favor of a more trendy word "anime". However, the "Japan" label never went away.
Again I have to disagree. After-school and Saturday morning shows have largely disappeared from over-the-air television over the last twenty years, though Cartoon Network, Nick and Toon Disney still produce tons. But at the same time, we've seen a huge rise in adult-oriented American animation -- something that barely existed before The Simpsons came along. True, a lot of them are the crap that Panty, Stocking & Garter Belt was making fun of, but I'd put Futurama, King of the Hill, Daria, The Venture Bros. Home Movies, and Mission Hill above 90% of the anime produced in the last decade.
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Old 2012-10-04, 13:49   Link #54
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True, a lot of them are the crap that Panty, Stocking & Garter Belt was making fun of, but I'd put Futurama, King of the Hill, Daria, The Venture Bros. Home Movies, and Mission Hill above 90% of the anime produced in the last decade.
I know that personal taste pretty much dictates your preference of shows, but do you actually know all those "90% of the anime produced in the last decade" to say that they're worse than Futurama, King of the Hill, Daria, The Venture Bros. Home Movies, and Mission Hill?
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Old 2012-10-04, 14:09   Link #55
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I know that personal taste pretty much dictates your preference of shows, but do you actually know all those "90% of the anime produced in the last decade" to say that they're worse than Futurama, King of the Hill, Daria, The Venture Bros. Home Movies, and Mission Hill?
I'll laugh hard at that part (if he said Avatar the Last and Korra then I won't laugh as hard).
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Old 2012-10-04, 14:20   Link #56
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90% of everything is shit anyway.

If only 10% of anime is better then the shows he cited, then that means that >400 titles are better (there are 4000 anime titles rated on the ANN encyclopedia). That's pretty good to me. USA: 6, Japan: 400, who's winning?


Anyway, the major problem with "adult" American animation right now is that it's extremely limited in tone. Everyshow is basically a simpsons copycat. It's all cynical, slightly snarky, "edgy" comedy. No horror, no SF, no fantasy, no romance, no drama, no variety. That's the problem with American animation. The reason everyone says anime is one genre, is because American animation is all one genre!
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Old 2012-10-04, 14:51   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
That's overstating it -- Speed Racer and Astro Boy aired on American TV decades before Robotech, and Star Blazers and Voltron were more or less contemporary with it.
Oh yea. I forgot about those. Granted, I wasn't even born then. I'm willling to bet: people saw those as cartoons or animations. Those who questioned or considered their origin from Japan... well... "anime" as a term didn't even exist yet.
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Old 2012-10-04, 20:24   Link #58
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90% of everything is shit anyway.

If only 10% of anime is better then the shows he cited, then that means that >400 titles are better (there are 4000 anime titles rated on the ANN encyclopedia). That's pretty good to me. USA: 6, Japan: 400, who's winning?
Again, do you know all those animes to say that it is impossible for 400 titles to be better than Futurama, King of the Hill, Daria, The Venture Bros. Home Movies, and Mission Hill?

Even though what you call “worse” or “better” are up to your own taste, how can you claim that the majority or minority of something is better or worse than something else without having the knowledge?
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Old 2012-10-04, 21:00   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Again, do you know all those animes to say that it is impossible for 400 titles to be better than Futurama, King of the Hill, Daria, The Venture Bros. Home Movies, and Mission Hill?

Even though what you call “worse” or “better” are up to your own taste, how can you claim that the majority or minority of something is better or worse than something else without having the knowledge?
I'm saying that by his reckoning 400 anime titles are better then the titles he cited. Anime comes out on top.

Anyway, I'm a veteran of watching anime, and I've watched a lot (over a hundred in full). I can say without much doubt that the majority of anime are turds. The majority of american animation are turds too.

He's basically comparing anime to what he considers the best of american animation, and then says that 10% of anime are better then the very best of western animation. By his logic anime as a whole is better then western animation.

And it's perfectly possible for me to assess whether something is good or not. While there's certainly a lot of room for disagreement, if you watch, say, the first episode of Shukufuku De Campanella, you'd have to be an idiot to think that show was any good. At best you can say the character designs are nice, if incredibly generic. Most shows put out there fall into that category.

Even when you go higher up, it's usually easy to seperate anime into "leagues". For instance, most anime fans would see that Madoka Magica is a better show then Shakugan no Shana, Shana is good, while Madoka is generally considered "great". I think it would be a rare thing to find a person who thought Shana was the better show. Now, if you asked people to choose which was better, Kanon or Clannad, Gundam 00 or Macross Frontier, then there'd be a lot more room for debate.
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Old 2012-10-04, 21:17   Link #60
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And it's perfectly possible for me to assess whether something is good or not. While there's certainly a lot of room for disagreement, if you watch, say, the first episode of Shukufuku De Campanella, you'd have to be an idiot to think that show was any good. At best you can say the character designs are nice, if incredibly generic. Most shows put out there fall into that category.
Oh good, I get to be the idiot who says that he liked Shukfuku no Campanella in both game and anime form. Sure, it was campy and the production values weren't very high-budget, but I enjoyed it. I bought all the Japanese Blu-Rays. It sure is nice to go on a forum and have people tell you you're an idiot just because you have differing tastes.

(Read: Everyone has their own tastes. Pretending that there's some single standard of "objective goodness" is a sure way to make yourself look obnoxious.)
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