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Old 2012-10-04, 00:23   Link #921
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Why are you afraid? . Justin is correct that a complete overhaul heeds to take place. Sadly, workarounnds are all that are possible anymore, so a candidate that creates the most efficient workarounds must be chosen, and that (of the two candidates) is Obama.
He is the only candidate who actually bothered about an overhaul other than Ron Paul. Why the heck does the GOP have to choose Romney?
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:24   Link #922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netto Azure View Post
I think that's an ideological debate that is somewhat self-perpetrating or fulfilling. If you elect officials that believe government "is too big, too corrupt, and too inefficient" then that would be what you will get.

On the other hand I'm willing to do some austerity, but not in the middle of a recession or economically weak time. Much evidence (AKA Britain and the EuroZone) have shown how abrupt austerity leads to double-dip recessions.
Sometimes you need to go through a lot of chemo(aka pain), to kill the cancer. The sooner you get programs and spending under control and fixed, the sooner everything can heal and get better. This pulling the bandaid off over a 20-30 year plan, is stupid.

Meanwhile, gas prices have hit 4.25 a gallon for 87 octane here in San Diego, food prices are going up with it, healthcare costs are out of control, the economy is barely treading water if that, and no one anywhere, has a clue on how to get things back on the right track.

Just take a look at both political parties here in America. Both will lie to our faces, send tax-payer money to their corporations/unions/friends, and then point their fingers at the guy across the aisle and say it's his fault everything is going to hell. Fact Checkers are ripping Romney and Obama new ones for their lying, twisting the facts, and their inability to tell us what plans they have, and how exactly those plans will make things better in the real world.

I don't like Romney, and I don't like the vast majority of the GOP. I voted Independent in 2010 across the board, and did the same again in all but the Presidential part in 2008. There is just simply no way I can ever support Obama. I would rather have Bush, Clinton, Carter, Nixon, or a host of other past Presidents back in the White House over that incompetence. He is grossly out of his league with the biggest seat in the world, and has no real business being there.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:25   Link #923
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As progressive as some might deem me, I also agree with justin that *everything* should be out there on the table for trimming or reforming. Audits to see how effective programs are and elimination for those that don't accomplish their mission.

I want a lot of things in the infrastructure (schools, roads, health, education) but one reserves debt for things that will improve the long term picture, not just transfer wealth into small gold-lined pockets. I can make a short list of many billions of dollars just of defense programs that don't accomplish their mission, are obsolete -- but make some congressman very fat and happy because it brings pointless jobs to his district and fills the coffers of GE/Halliburton/whatever.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2012-10-04 at 00:26. Reason: wow, typing hell, time for bed
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:30   Link #924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
As progressive as some might deem me, I also agree with justin that *everything* should be out there on the table for trimming or reforming. Audits to see how effective programs are and elimination for those that don't accomplish their mission.

I want a lot of things in the infrastructure (schools, roads, health, education) but one reserves debt for things that will improve the long term picture, not just transfer wealth into small gold-lined pockets. I can make a short list of many billions of dollars just of defense programs that don't accomplish their mission, are obsolete -- but make some congressman very fat and happy because it brings pointless jobs to his district and fills the coffers of GE/Halliburton/whatever.
I agree with this. As I said earlier, everything is on the table. Even the GOP's Precious Defense Budgets.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:30   Link #925
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^Pain/Chemo can be great...if you can take the full treatment, and sadly the US currently can not. At best a few changes could be made before a full melt down, or worse, the opposing party uses the change to sway public opinion enough against the complete reform (which is partially what happened to Obama).

No, we can only deal with real issues once some true stability mixed with positive growth has geen achieved.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:34   Link #926
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I agree with this. As I said earlier, everything is on the table. Even the GOP's Precious Defense Budgets.
It's one thing to say than the GOP would cut into the ''Precious Defense Budgets'' it's another to do the cuts, especialy some real one.

Cut spending and increasing their revenus, both will have to be done.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:34   Link #927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Pain/Chemo can be great...if you can take the full treatment, and sadly the US currently can not. At best a few changes could be made before a full melt down, or worse, the opposing party uses the change to sway public opinion enough against the complete reform (which is partially what happened to Obama).

No, we can only deal with real issues once some true stability mixed with positive growth has geen achieved.
I'm waiting for the 20+% interest rates to hit, circa Jimmy Carter's era. The way the Feds are printing money, the way the Government is spending money, the student loan bubble that will be popping in the next few years, things are going to be rough for a long time to come.

I can't support any plans to raise revenue, if there is nothing keeping the Government from using increased revenue to grow itself even larger. You don't give crack addicts more drugs in the hopes that they'll get off of it. And raising taxes is not going to raise much in the way of revenue. Maybe a few billion, in the face of 1100 billion dollar yearly deficits... In otherwords, not even a drop of water in a pool.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:36   Link #928
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Republicans argue that revenues will increase once the economy improves (more jobs, more activity, equal more tax revenue). There's truth in that. But also - those corporations sitting on piles of money or transferring it overseas need some poking to put it back into the US economy, both carrot and stick.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:37   Link #929
Netto Azure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Why are you afraid? . Justin is correct that a complete overhaul heeds to take place. Sadly, workarounnds are all that are possible anymore, so a candidate that creates the most efficient workarounds must be chosen, and that (of the two candidates) is Obama.
The problem is the "workarounds" that I think should take place are completely anathema to much of the neo-liberal ideologues.

For example:

Healthcare: Expand Medicare to all Americans, using the power of having a single insurance pool would be much more efficient in establishing industry standards and lowering prices, Plus delivering equitable care.

Social security: Remove the payroll tax cap of $104,000 or try to increase income to it as what happened in 1982.

Military: That depends I'm torn between the debates of Isolationism and the maintenance of the current order.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:39   Link #930
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Chemo can be great...if you can pay for the full treatment, and sadly the US currently can not. At best a few changes could ge made before a full melt down, or worse, the opposing party uses the changesntobsway public opinion enough against the complete reform (which is partially what happened to Obama).

No, we can obly deal with real issues once some true stability mixed with positive growth has geen achieved.
Infrastructure redevelopment would be a nice thing to have; schools and hospitals and AFFORDABLE HOMES (and a license to dig a basement for an arms cache and shooting range, paid for by the owner of course, crazy yanks and their gun rights ), not military bases and Fedmax prisons. If it comes to trimming military, copying Russia in creating a mobile but still heavy hitting force, more HUMINT, less satellites, and focus on SEA's tricky island chains instead of wide open seas in the Pacific and Atlantic.

And stop the treasury debt war with China, as sure as printing more can dilute the value of China's trade surplus and not let them overtake S as the world economy, it hurts the rest of the world. And it is about time to stop since investors are looking out of China.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:42   Link #931
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netto Azure View Post
The problem is the "workarounds" that I think should take place are completely anathema to much of the neo-liberal ideologues.

For example:

Healthcare: Expand Medicare to all Americans, using the power of having a single insurance pool would be much more efficient in establishing industry standards and lowering prices, Plus delivering equitable care.

Social security: Remove the payroll tax cap of $104,000 or try to increase income to it as what happened in 1982.

Military: That depends I'm torn between the debates of Isolationism and the maintenance of the current order.
The first two I happen to support. They're the easiest path to some course correction through a byzantine nightmare.

And yeah, before anyone whines, my household makes quite a bit more than the SS/MC payroll tax cap. The cap has never made any sense.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:44   Link #932
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
As progressive as some might deem me, I also agree with justin that *everything* should be out there on the table for trimming or reforming. Audits to see how effective programs are and elimination for those that don't accomplish their mission.
Yeah, but the process to authorize cuts counted in millions should be practically automatic or you'll never get done. You can't let "small" savings distract you from the large ones. If Congress has to debate for weeks about something, it'd better be about billions.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:45   Link #933
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The first two I happen to support. They're the easiest path to some course correction through a byzantine nightmare.

And yeah, before anyone whines, my household makes quite a bit more than the SS/MC payroll tax cap. The cap has never made any sense.
How much did they actually pay you for Star Wars...
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:45   Link #934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Infrastructure redevelopment would be a nice thing to have; schools and hospitals and AFFORDABLE HOMES (and a license to dig a basement for an arms cache and shooting range, paid for by the owner of course, crazy yanks and their gun rights ), not military bases and Fedmax prisons. If it comes to trimming military, copying Russia in creating a mobile but still heavy hitting force, more HUMINT, less satellites, and focus on SEA's tricky island chains instead of wide open seas in the Pacific and Atlantic.

And stop the treasury debt war with China, as sure as printing more can dilute the value of China's trade surplus and not let them overtake S as the world economy, it hurts the rest of the world. And it is about time to stop since investors are looking out of China.
I'm not up to spending more on schools when we have this going on.... And Poway is about 10 miles from where I live. Very local....

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/educa...a4bcf887a.html

Get the spending under control. Then I will get on board with increases in infrastructure. Until we get responsible with how our money is being spent, throwing money at a fire will only burn most of it away...
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:47   Link #935
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I'm not up to spending more on schools when we have this going on.... And Poway is about 10 miles from where I live. Very local....

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/educa...a4bcf887a.html

Get the spending under control. Then I will get on board with increases in infrastructure. Until we get responsible with how our money is being spent, throwing money at a fire will only burn most of it away...
What about hospitals? I read often that US has pretty advanced healthcare, but most public hospitals are crap.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:52   Link #936
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
What about hospitals? I read often that US has pretty advanced healthcare, but most public hospitals are crap.
I'm open to discussion on that. My half-brother benefited greatly from America's health system. Though I couldn't give you many specifics on what was wrong with him(I haven't seen him in 19 years, and only got into contact with him on Facebook in June(don't ask, it's a long story involving a manipulative, bitch of a mother who tried to destroy a lot of lives...)), I know there were experimental surgeries done on him, and after his first five years of life, and 17 operations, was able to breath without a trachea. So I support the Medical system, trying to improve it, and trying to make it more affordable for everyone.

I don't like however, being FORCED to have Health Insurance. Regardless of who's idea it is.

Nice to chat with all of you Progressives again. This Libertarian/Conservative/Quasi Independent mish mash has to go to bed. Something about working tomorrow and paying my taxes and trying to do my part.

Maybe tomorrow, I'll hook up the battery and fire up my 800hp Corvette and burn some fossil fuels for the greeny wheenies that might be in here.
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Old 2012-10-04, 00:57   Link #937
Vexx
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
What about hospitals? I read often that US has pretty advanced healthcare, but most public hospitals are crap.
Distribution of healthcare is wildly uneven. Many parts of the US have essentially no healthcare access (some states can't handle it on their own).

And justin is also right about K-12 education having interesting losses between taxpayer and student. Say the state collects $12000 per student. Once you figure out the cost of the teacher, the cost of the facility, etc. there's still an absurd amount of administrative overhead sucks up a lot of the money -- getting that trimmed down is like draining swamps.

I'd also point out that we would not have the college student loan disaster in the making if we had stuck with the NDSL government loan programs (Cold War investment in higher education -> low interest student loans) instead of "outsourcing it to the private sector" in the 80s. The private loan industry has made a killing off of student loans and altered the bankruptcy laws so that not even that can keep a student from "indentured servitude" for the rest of their life.

Night, night, Justin. I think I'm going to go write more fiction, got a chapter to release tomorrow.
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Old 2012-10-04, 01:11   Link #938
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
The government is too big, too corrupt, and too inefficient.
No, the United States Federal government is NOT big enough to sufficiently manage a country of over 300 million people. In, fact, I'll outright say that almost any major notion of cutting welfare will cause so many shockwaves throughout the system that it will cause the entire system to become disorganized to the point there might as well be no welfare. The problem of the US is that instead of too much being spent, not enough is being raised in the first place. When a government is trying to run a budget that is about 24% of the GDP while raising only 15% of GDP worth of funds, you either have to cut too much (and risk making everything crash down) or you raise revenues.

This is the fundamental problem that few people see, if they notice it at all. The US federal government as it is right now is not sufficiently big enough to provide all the services it should be providing, and this is assuming we don't take into account military R&D and the extra costs of the wars. The only way people are going to maintain things is getting the necessary budget. People talk about the wastes of a crazy medical insurance system and the such, but those are peanuts compared to the basic spending needed to actually give out service in the first place.
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Old 2012-10-04, 01:19   Link #939
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I'm open to discussion on that. My half-brother benefited greatly from America's health system. Though I couldn't give you many specifics on what was wrong with him(I haven't seen him in 19 years, and only got into contact with him on Facebook in June(don't ask, it's a long story involving a manipulative, bitch of a mother who tried to destroy a lot of lives...)), I know there were experimental surgeries done on him, and after his first five years of life, and 17 operations, was able to breath without a trachea. So I support the Medical system, trying to improve it, and trying to make it more affordable for everyone.

I don't like however, being FORCED to have Health Insurance. Regardless of who's idea it is.
Being an insurance agent myself, I think I can understand where the idea of health insurance comes from - the cost of a doctor's service.

I don't mind doctors being paid well to get their work 99.99999% right and save lives, they deserve it for the subsequent OCD they suffer in their line of work, and human lives are priceless. Health insurances provide a way to pay the doctors for getting their work right from a tranche pool.

The thing I don't like is how medical institutions charge for ridiculous fees and pad their own pockets, and how insurance companies use that tranche to invest and come up with those ridiculously material benefits for "top sales agents". All in the name of profit. If the investment is used to hedge against inflating medical costs and drug prototyping studies, it is fine, but to afford a Ferrari and a trip to Hawaii out of somebody's expense for protection against fate just doesn't sit well with me.

Quote:
Maybe tomorrow, I'll hook up the battery and fire up my 800hp Corvette and burn some fossil fuels for the greeny wheenies that might be in here.
Call your congressman and call for promotion of execution by firing squad, instead of life incarcernation, using only environmentall, biodegradable, lead/heavy-metal free bullets. Then process the corpse for soylent green.

Presto! You lower food prices, save the environment, and might even get some methane out of the biological processing to convert into fuel. What can those environmentalists whine about now? [/sarcasm]
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-10-04, 02:25   Link #940
flying ^
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Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
This is embarrassing to watch.
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I saw that earlier on the corvetteforum. Good entertainment for sure.
admit it

it was a 90 minute epic royal smackdown NO ONE saw coming... unless you're Crispy Creme Christie.

that fat fuck from Jersey was sure right on the money!

look, everyone from Chris Matthews & Rachel Maddow (MSNBC), CNN, Fox News, Breitbart.com, Drudge Report, CBS, NBC, ect... even Hollywood
EXTREME Lefties: Bill Maher, Michael Moore, & Samuel Jackson... name me a Lefty - EVERYONE said Obama seemed unpassionate, bored, & in dire need of a teleprompter

the Left is furious with the moderator for letting Romney 'speak' and actually NOT helping Obama.
worse yet, they all concede Romney was a Ginsu Blade shredding every topic in his path and Obama was barely a butter Knife.

twitter set ALL-Time records for traffic and Chris Matthews had a near Melt-down. (see my clip above)
it was such a clock cleaning the LEFT can't find ANYTHING good to say about Obama... except that he didn't puke on himself or fall asleep.

(oh & BTW - today is the 0bama's wedding anniversary, how romantic.)

again, it was practically a 'school yard beating' with a moderator. i am NOT Exaggerating! the Left is FURIOUS with Obama. NO ONE's is really attacking Romney... it's like 80% WTF Happen to Obama!?

Last edited by flying ^; 2012-10-04 at 02:43.
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