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Old 2012-10-04, 10:09   Link #961
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
No, the United States Federal government is NOT big enough to sufficiently manage a country of over 300 million people. In, fact, I'll outright say that almost any major notion of cutting welfare will cause so many shockwaves throughout the system that it will cause the entire system to become disorganized to the point there might as well be no welfare. The problem of the US is that instead of too much being spent, not enough is being raised in the first place. When a government is trying to run a budget that is about 24% of the GDP while raising only 15% of GDP worth of funds, you either have to cut too much (and risk making everything crash down) or you raise revenues.

This is the fundamental problem that few people see, if they notice it at all. The US federal government as it is right now is not sufficiently big enough to provide all the services it should be providing, and this is assuming we don't take into account military R&D and the extra costs of the wars. The only way people are going to maintain things is getting the necessary budget. People talk about the wastes of a crazy medical insurance system and the such, but those are peanuts compared to the basic spending needed to actually give out service in the first place.
Putting it as nicely as I can... You and I could live a thousand lifetimes, and NEVER come to an agreement on this. It just isn't possible. You want bigger Government. I want smaller Government. We will always be on the opposite sides of the fence. I despise Government as a whole, and deal with it as little as possible. I don't trust it, and see all too often how corrupt it is. And it pisses me off to no end, seeing how much of my taxes, goes to take care of people who should have no right to my labor.
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Old 2012-10-04, 10:12   Link #962
Kyuu
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Well, I missed out on the debate, so I YouTube it right now. However, I have read up a little bit on how people reacted to it, which judges Rmoney with a strong debate performance.
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Old 2012-10-04, 10:15   Link #963
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Putting it as nicely as I can... You and I could live a thousand lifetimes, and NEVER come to an agreement on this. It just isn't possible. You want bigger Government. I want smaller Government. We will always be on the opposite sides of the fence. I despise Government as a whole, and deal with it as little as possible. I don't trust it, and see all too often how corrupt it is. And it pisses me off to no end, seeing how much of my taxes, goes to take care of people who should have no right to my labor.
Did a government touch you someplace and make you uncomfortable?

I kid, I kid! Here's an infographic showing U.S. gov't spending, where it all goes: http://www.cbo.gov/publication/42636
And here's more of the details: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258

The U.S. clearly has a revenue problem. The tax code/system needs to be completely revamped.

Gutting and revising the medical insurance system would probably help as well. Here's also a chart showing per capita spending on healthcare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari..._United_States

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Old 2012-10-04, 10:21   Link #964
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Well, I missed out on the debate, so I YouTube it right now. However, I have read up a little bit on how people reacted to it, which judges Rmoney with a strong debate performance.
Yeah but he didn't really make any strong lasting points, he just won by appearing to be in control of the debate and showcasing the most confidence, while Obama just sort of looked disinterested, probably still cause the whole thing is pointless. Still it's incredibly dumb on his part and showcases his ocassional lack of attentiveness yet again. It doesn't matter if the thing is a sham, this is a game and you have to think of it as a game if you want to get voters to pay attention. This is one area where I think the Republicans "get it" and are smart enough to make up ground in the election because they pretty much have no shame and this is exactly the game they want to be playing, the one where you don't have to take things seriously and where bluster and arrogance can actually serve them well if they temper it just right like they did with Romney. Dishonest, but smart.
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Old 2012-10-04, 10:33   Link #965
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
This is one area where I think the Republicans "get it" and are smart enough to make up ground in the election because they pretty much have no shame and this is exactly the game they want to be playing, the one where you don't have to take things seriously and where bluster and arrogance can actually serve them well if they temper it just right like they did with Romney. Dishonest, but smart.
Hence the domination of the "two word talking points". Fact checkers right now look into what Romney had said - and to no surprise - most of it is garbage. Regardless, these debates is all about making impressions, as most people do not even pay attention to the regular election cycle OR people are already encamped towards one candidate or the other.

At 20 minutes in, I'm already tuning out; and at the first 2-minute answer, I already thought: "Oh look. Romney is saying BS again".
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Old 2012-10-04, 10:45   Link #966
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Hence the domination of the "two word talking points". Fact checkers right now look into what Romney had said - and to no surprise - most of it is garbage. Regardless, these debates is all about making impressions, as most people do not even pay attention to the regular election cycle OR people are already encamped towards one candidate or the other.

At 20 minutes in, I'm already tuning out; and at the first 2-minute answer, I already thought: "Oh look. Romney is saying BS again".
Yeah well it's funny that many polls I've looked at about what the debate did for the candidates are overwhelming dominated by the "position did not change" option with Romney as the next choice for most likely to vote for. So yeah it's pretty well terrible and an embarrassment and I'm still pretty sure China is laughing at North America right now while actually hammering out real plausible plans on how to take advantage of the situation economically post-election.

I still think that the shift to China as the economic center of the world is actually going to take place sooner now rather than later. I look at them and I see a functioning proactive and most importantly united government that their people respect if fear somewhat and I look at the U.S and see total dysfunction and a public that could give less of a shit about what they are trying to do cause of the deadlock that has been the last decade and whom they fear possibly more than the Chinese fear theirs. Both governments are oppressive, it's just one is actually working and getting shit done.
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Old 2012-10-04, 10:59   Link #967
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I still think that the shift to China as the economic center of the world is actually going to take place sooner now rather than later. I look at them and I see a functioning proactive and most importantly united government that their people respect if fear somewhat and I look at the U.S and see total dysfunction and a public that could give less of a shit about what they are trying to do cause of the deadlock that has been the last decade and whom they fear possibly more than the Chinese fear theirs. Both governments are oppressive, it's just one is actually working and getting shit done.
That'll be a blessing in disguise, as America failed to handle its position as the "top dog"; and the natural course is a downward trend, that occurred to all previous hegemonies in the past.

And I don't see the American government as oppressive. Instead, it's American business that's oppressive, which uses the government as its tool.
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Old 2012-10-04, 11:05   Link #968
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Putting it as nicely as I can... You and I could live a thousand lifetimes, and NEVER come to an agreement on this. It just isn't possible. You want bigger Government. I want smaller Government. We will always be on the opposite sides of the fence. I despise Government as a whole, and deal with it as little as possible. I don't trust it, and see all too often how corrupt it is. And it pisses me off to no end, seeing how much of my taxes, goes to take care of people who should have no right to my labor.
My basic point is that trying to make the government smaller than it is right now would mean the collapse of the social welfare system. If you're willing to go through that, and have some kind of plan to minimize the fallout, I would support a "smaller" government. But given that I have yet to see any short of concrete plan that does not bring about an even bigger gap between the high and low class (the same thing "progressives" complain about all the time), I don't see the alternative.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I still think that the shift to China as the economic center of the world is actually going to take place sooner now rather than later.
I'll just say I believe that to be a pipe dream with the US having to take care of a world that is in crisis following the inevitable PRC collapse.
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Old 2012-10-04, 12:22   Link #969
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
My basic point is that trying to make the government smaller than it is right now would mean the collapse of the social welfare system. If you're willing to go through that, and have some kind of plan to minimize the fallout, I would support a "smaller" government. But given that I have yet to see any short of concrete plan that does not bring about an even bigger gap between the high and low class (the same thing "progressives" complain about all the time), I don't see the alternative.
I think both of you want the same thing : a more EFFICIENT government. The size doesn't matter - it is the dedication of the people they employ does.

The lack of creativity, drive and adherence to bureaucracy for fear that their iron rice bowl be broken probably made government employees more passive than they actually are. Either that or incompetent superiors who deserve to be put through commando POW training everytime bureaucracy is used as an excuse for inaction.
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Old 2012-10-04, 12:29   Link #970
DonQuigleone
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There's also cases where the profit motive just isn't suited to a particular type of work. I would judge healthcare to be one of those. Likewise Education.

For profit Educational institutions are more often then not selling snake oil. The best teachers aren't in it for the money. Same goes for Medecine.
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Old 2012-10-04, 12:32   Link #971
sikvod00
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John Marshall over at TPM just saw Romney surrogate Jon Sununu on Andrea Mitchel's show, and he claimed that Obama's poor debate performance is attributed to his laziness. He doesn't like to prep or work in general. Yeah...
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Old 2012-10-04, 13:16   Link #972
Ithekro
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If I remember correctly, the general Republican policy is not to actually debate with the Democratic Party. It is more to show up the Democratic Party and throw out a lot of bluster...without actually debating anything.
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Old 2012-10-04, 13:28   Link #973
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I think both of you want the same thing : a more EFFICIENT government. The size doesn't matter - it is the dedication of the people they employ does.

The lack of creativity, drive and adherence to bureaucracy for fear that their iron rice bowl be broken probably made government employees more passive than they actually are. Either that or incompetent superiors who deserve to be put through commando POW training everytime bureaucracy is used as an excuse for inaction.
No, I don't. There can only be an efficient government if there is a goal of that government.
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Old 2012-10-04, 13:39   Link #974
Vexx
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Well, we'll assume you want the money spent to be spent with maximum results for each dollar. That's what "efficient" means.
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Old 2012-10-04, 13:44   Link #975
Sumeragi
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Not really: I rather have an effective government (whatever the goals are). Efficiency can come later.
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Old 2012-10-04, 13:59   Link #976
Ithekro
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The United States of America was basically founded as an expansionistic agrarian republic (or at least by 1801 and Thomas Jefferson it was). That was before the Industrial Revolution, so the agrarian has been supplimented with industry and manufacturing. Up until 1900 the country was still expanding via newly acquired territory such as Hawaii, the Philippines, Guam, and Puerto Rico. The last Continental territories became states in 1912. (the Frontier closed in 1890). The last state admitted to the Union was in 1959. By 1960, the expansion had more or less stopped and the country began to stew because of it. One temporary reprieve was the Space Race to the Moon, but that ended quickly since we were not colonizing the place, nor really colonizing anything in Space, even with stations like Skylab or the ISS. The Industry has been shipped overseas as the country has become more service oriented than manufacturing. Of course then one has to ask, how do you provide service jobs to several hundred million people?

Basically the country is not like it was in 1801, but I have the feeling the people are still geared like they were in 1801. They still have that "pioneer spirit" that wants to expand. Or they have a desire to build stuff, and without a manufacturing base, they can't fulfull that desire (not the high end building, I'm talking autoworkers, steel mills, and contruction workers type stuff).

I contend that we (as a county) need to expand to keep out people interested and "happy". There has to be someplace else to go that is new. We still have a "its new" culture in consumerism with the need to buy the newest car or clothes or whatever. Translate that back to new lands, and you would get people moving there because it is new, or there is adventure, or there is profit.

But where to expand? Canada and Mexico? Already populated with people similar to use. That would be annexation and no one would need to move to either location. That would add a lot more stars to the flag (30 more for Mexico and 12 for Canada)

Middle East? That's kind of going backwards isn't it? Plus the natives are a lot more hostile that the Native Americans, and more heavily armed.

How about place were there are not humans presently? The Oceans? Space? Up or Down are the viable option for a new frontier. Both have potental resources to collect for business instrests. Both have intersting dangers to overcome. Both require heavy amounts of investment in sciences and engineering t make viable for civilian populations.
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Old 2012-10-04, 14:05   Link #977
flying ^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikvod00 View Post
John Marshall over at TPM just saw Romney surrogate Jon Sununu on Andrea Mitchel's show, and he claimed that Obama's poor debate performance is attributed to his laziness. He doesn't like to prep or work in general. Yeah...
now this is the perfect time for Samuel L Jackson to step in, conduct shame session, preferably with a memorable line from a "children's book"

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Old 2012-10-04, 14:09   Link #978
NinjaRealist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
And I don't see the American government as oppressive. Instead, it's American business that's oppressive, which uses the government as its tool.
But isn't the government oppressive precisely BECAUSE it is a tool of big business? Doesn't that automatically make our Government the enemy of the people?

Anyways that debate was really depressing. If I had any doubts before, it's clear to me now that it's just the inevitable march towards fascism from here. I think it is already too late for anyone to save this country.
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Old 2012-10-04, 14:15   Link #979
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
And I don't see the American government as oppressive. Instead, it's American business that's oppressive, which uses the government as its tool.
On the contrary, I see the people being ignorant and oppressive.
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Old 2012-10-04, 16:42   Link #980
Netto Azure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Romney essentially kept Obama off balance by renouncing every one of his previously held views.

I guess the GOP don't mind, because they would see him change back tomorrow.
The Obama Tumblr page has this posted today:

Quote:
We had our first debate last night. And when I got onto the stage, I met this very spirited fellow who claimed to be Mitt Romney. But it couldn’t have been Mitt Romney—because the real Mitt Romney has been running around the country for the last year promising $5 trillion in tax cuts that favor the wealthy. The fellow on stage last night said he didn’t know anything about that.

The real Mitt Romney said we don’t need any more teachers in our classrooms. But the fellow on stage last night, he loves teachers—can’t get enough of them. The Mitt Romney we all know invested in companies that were called “pioneers” of outsourcing jobs to other countries. But the guy on stage last night, he said that he doesn’t even know that there are such laws that encourage outsourcing—he’s never heard of them. Never heard of them. Never heard of tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas. He said that if it’s true, he must need a new accountant.

Now, we know for sure it was not the real Mitt Romney, because he seems to be doing just fine with his current accountant. So you see, the man on stage last night, he does not want to be held accountable for the real Mitt Romney’s decisions and what he’s been saying for the last year. And that’s because he knows full well that we don’t want what he’s been selling for the last year. So Governor Romney may dance around his positions, but if you want to be President, you owe the American people the truth.

- President Obama in Denver, CO today
Pretty much sums up what I saw last night.
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