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Old 2012-10-04, 16:55   Link #981
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaRealist View Post
Anyways that debate was really depressing. If I had any doubts before, it's clear to me now that it's just the inevitable march towards fascism from here.
You talking about the republicans, the democrats, or both? Both sides like to accuse the other side of running towards fascism.
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Old 2012-10-04, 17:17   Link #982
NinjaRealist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
You talking about the republicans, the democrats, or both? Both sides like to accuse the other side of running towards fascism.
I'm talking about the entire political system. At this point, the Republicans and the Democrats are just like different factions of the same party, and they both seem intent on stripping us of our civil liberties: one by one.
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Old 2012-10-04, 17:47   Link #983
Sumeragi
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*Shakes head*

Sometimes I wonder about the actual knowledge of people.
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Old 2012-10-04, 17:51   Link #984
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If I remember correctly, the general Republican policy is not to actually debate with the Democratic Party. It is more to show up the Democratic Party and throw out a lot of bluster...without actually debating anything.
Of course, all talk before the debate was that undecided voters are scared and want to see someone charismatic that says they'll fix everything. Like always Romney didn't detail anything and said a lot of things like he always does while changing his views again. The debate isn't about talking, it's about looking good and that's where Obama messed up.
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Old 2012-10-04, 18:14   Link #985
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Of course, all talk before the debate was that undecided voters are scared and want to see someone charismatic that says they'll fix everything.
And that's how we get dictators ... not an optimistic thought.
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Old 2012-10-04, 18:22   Link #986
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
*Shakes head*

Sometimes I wonder about the actual knowledge of people.

What specifically do you mean?
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Old 2012-10-04, 19:01   Link #987
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Of course, all talk before the debate was that undecided voters are scared and want to see someone charismatic that says they'll fix everything. Like always Romney didn't detail anything and said a lot of things like he always does while changing his views again. The debate isn't about talking, it's about looking good and that's where Obama messed up.
Isn't that what people said about Obama 4 years ago? All hope and no substance?
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Old 2012-10-04, 19:18   Link #988
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
And that's how we get dictators ... not an optimistic thought.
By the votes or the arms, there's so much way toward despotism.
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Old 2012-10-04, 19:25   Link #989
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
And that's how we get dictators ... not an optimistic thought.
People dream of an FDR or Teddy Roosevelt - and end up with a Hitler.
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Old 2012-10-04, 19:25   Link #990
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Isn't that what people said about Obama 4 years ago? All hope and no substance?
But Obama doesn't change views depending on which direction the wind is blowing. He might not have done a good job, but at least we know what he tried to do.

Romney literally got nothing. Everything he said at the debates are the reverse of what he was saying in the last week. He isn't so much lying as just making stuff up.
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Old 2012-10-04, 19:40   Link #991
Urzu 7
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I'm pretty sure if Romney became president, he'd just get tossed around like a rag-doll, not really being a leader but just doing the bidding of the GOP.
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Old 2012-10-04, 21:30   Link #992
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I'm pretty sure if Romney became president, he'd just get tossed around like a rag-doll, not really being a leader but just doing the bidding of the GOP.
The issue is that he would have zero credibility internationally. Domestically he would just obey the GOP, but leaders like Putin aren't going to take kindly to Romney's style of lying to people in front of their faces.
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Old 2012-10-04, 21:37   Link #993
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
People dream of an FDR or Teddy Roosevelt - and end up with a Hitler.
The Roosevelts were considered traitors to their class. They both came from 1% backgrounds, and they were financed by the elite who expected them to go into office on their behalf. Those elite never expected that these two would set in motion what would eventually create the middle class and progressive era.

For this reason, despite their many flaws, they are considered heroes to the average American. They could have cemented the Gilded Age, but instead they took a sledgehammer to it. Obama is nothing compared to that - he simply lacks the fire needed to do what is right instead of what is easy. He's not a fighter. That's the reason progressives are so unhappy with him.
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Old 2012-10-04, 21:46   Link #994
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
By the votes or the arms, there's so much way toward despotism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
People dream of an FDR or Teddy Roosevelt - and end up with a Hitler.
Both are based on the people doing nothing. Despite all the whining I've been seeing, in the end it's the people's fault for who they elect. Right now to me it seems people are simply escaping responsibility.
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Old 2012-10-04, 21:53   Link #995
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Both are based on the people doing nothing. Despite all the whining I've been seeing, in the end it's the people's fault for who they elect. Right now to me it seems people are simply escaping responsibility.
Last I checked, the people don't decide:

1) Who runs
2) Who each party chooses as its representative
3) Who gets to vote at the national conventions for who gets to be the representative

The most they can do in the process is vote in the straw polls, which can mean nothing due to fraud (happened in at least two instances during this election year if I recall) or mean nothing due to who the 1% is willing to pour money into.

Like it or not, you need money for elections. A lot of money. And there's no way anyone can compete against the 1% without being the 1%, in which case it's not "the people" who are deciding things anyway!
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Old 2012-10-04, 22:01   Link #996
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Last I checked, the people don't decide:

1) Who runs
2) Who each party chooses as its representative
3) Who gets to vote at the national conventions for who gets to be the representative

The most they can do in the process is vote in the straw polls, which can mean nothing due to fraud (happened in at least two instances during this election year if I recall) or mean nothing due to who the 1% is willing to pour money into.

Like it or not, you need money for elections. A lot of money. And there's no way anyone can compete against the 1% without being the 1%, in which case it's not "the people" who are deciding things anyway!
What about primaries? Register with the Democrats (or Republicans if they take your fancy) and vote to determine who the nominee will be. If you vote in the primary, you determine all 3 things.
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Old 2012-10-04, 22:08   Link #997
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Last I checked, the people don't decide:

1) Who runs
2) Who each party chooses as its representative
3) Who gets to vote at the national conventions for who gets to be the representative

The most they can do in the process is vote in the straw polls, which can mean nothing due to fraud (happened in at least two instances during this election year if I recall) or mean nothing due to who the 1% is willing to pour money into.

Like it or not, you need money for elections. A lot of money. And there's no way anyone can compete against the 1% without being the 1%, in which case it's not "the people" who are deciding things anyway!
Yeah, it isn't so simple as just saying the voters are at fault. Like GDB said, the people who run for president these days (who make it to the conventions) are the ones that get good financial backing.

I mean, for instance, we have Mitt going against Obama. I'd rather have someone like Jon Huntsman trying to become president, but the rich folks who back the GOP don't want him, they want Mitt because he will carry out their GOP agenda better than Jon Huntsman could. When we have people running for president, it isn't even a matter of who is the best for the candidate position anymore, it is about who has the money. For republican candidates, the one that makes it the farthest is the one the very wealthy will support.
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Old 2012-10-04, 22:14   Link #998
Vexx
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It isn't the "people's fault" if there's been a concerted effort to pollute the process with money such that only monied approval gets one into the primaries.

What are the "people" supposed to do, shoot the appointed judges who make such devastating rulings? At some point, this starts sounding like "blame the rape victim" when the blame is on the perpetrators - the ultra-wealthy barons who want to undermine the system.

The people are going to have to fix it but getting 300 million people moving in one direction is a lot of inertia to overcome.
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Old 2012-10-04, 22:22   Link #999
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
What about primaries? Register with the Democrats (or Republicans if they take your fancy) and vote to determine who the nominee will be. If you vote in the primary, you determine all 3 things.
No, you cannot decide who will run. Those who will run are on the ballet. Those who aren't, won't be. Even if you attempt a write-in campaign, you won't succeed. You might win one state, but what will that accomplish? Nothing.

Pretty sure no one openly campaigns as a "delegate" for national conventions these days. You pretty much get in by being picked, which is why they're often the likes of Jets Owner Woody Johnson.

The people don't choose who those people choose, either. You can hope they vote the way you want, but they don't have to.

And even then, primaries mean jack squat if you aren't one of the first four or five states to hold their primaries. By the time 90% of them come around, most candidates have dropped out, or they don't even make it on to the ballet.
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Old 2012-10-04, 22:29   Link #1000
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I said it before, and I will say it again; if Romney "won" this debate, it means the United State of America is dead.

You know what was one of the first tales I learned about America as a child? The story about the young George Washington and the cherry tree. A story about honesty.

Is the tale historically accurate? Who knows. But we do know it was popularly touted as a virtue for the first President of the United States.

Everywhere online, I keep hearing "It doesn't matter Romney lied! The undecided voters are too stupid anyway!"

Well, if you don't think lying even MATTERS, then I don't want anything to do with you. In Romney's America, USA is a den of charlatans.
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