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Old 2012-10-05, 15:54   Link #1081
ganbaru
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Jack Welch accuses Obama of cooking jobs numbers
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-jobs-numbers/
Quote:
Immediately following of a jobs report showing unemployment below 8 percent for the first time in four years, former General Electric CEO Jack Welch accused the White House of skewing the numbers to help President Obama win.
Welch doubled down on his accusation in an afternoon interview with the Wall Street Journal, saying, “I wasn’t kidding.”
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Old 2012-10-05, 15:56   Link #1082
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Chandela View Post
Although these numbers don't include people who no longer receive unemployment benefits and or stopped looking for work. So good numbers? Yeeeeeaaaahhhhhh I don't know about that.
Well, better numbers.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:00   Link #1083
Vexx
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Well, Jack Welch, the numbers were "cooked" between 2000-2008 as well (and before that). They just don't reflect what is going on in the economy or job market. They don't reflect underemployment, they don't reflect people who have given up in despair, they don't reflect seasonal/temp/contract work. Where were you then, *Jack*?
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:00   Link #1084
Chandela
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Well, better numbers.
Better? If creating the misconception that the unemployment rate is falling more then it actually is among the people of the country is better then yeah I guess, hint hint.
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Last edited by Chandela; 2012-10-05 at 16:06. Reason: Change of words.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:05   Link #1085
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Can I just say that is one of the largest piece of BS I've ever heard in any format? There is no superior or inferior way of thinking, given the limitations of humans. The fact that people think science is the answer is the same kind of idolatry that anti-religion people accuse the religious of, and in fact I believe them to be no different from the extreme religions that they speak down of.
Assertion. False Equivalency. Some ways of thinking will get you eaten by tigers, others are less likely to.

The scientific method is WHAT CONSCIOUS BEINGS DO when they're creating a model of reality in their head. Collect Data -> Form Hypothesis, Create Model-> Collect more data->modify model. If model can't explain data with modification, toss model out, new model.

Creatures that don't do that don't tend to do well. If data is discarded because it doesn't fit what an ancient text says, it is not going to go well. Even the Dalai Lama gets that.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:08   Link #1086
Sumeragi
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Scientific method does not equal science. That is the fundamental misunderstanding of those who believe science to be superior to other beliefs.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:11   Link #1087
Vexx
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O.o You're using the word "science" in a way that doesn't make sense:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Science, Merriam Webster
: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2
a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study <the science of theology>
b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>

3
a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
Are you trying to talk about people who wave the results of science around without understanding how the results were arrived at?
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:15   Link #1088
Zakoo
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Hmm science is defined as "all the knowledge caracterized in one field and gained with a proper methodology, based on an objective view".

Honestly there's countless definition, we are more going on semantic than something else, if we look only of fact, it's only thanks to science that humanity advanced and progressed. Religions had its share, true, but they often kept people ignorants.

But Vexx, imho you are too anti clerical, religion itself isn't evil, it's needed for human, humankind need an answer to "what happens after life" and it's something science won't ever answer.
The problem is how people take too strictly what was written, and on this point we have those same extremist people on the science side.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:16   Link #1089
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Scientific method does not equal science. That is the fundamental misunderstanding of those who believe science to be superior to other beliefs.
But science without the scientific method is just Alchemy.

I personally apply the scientific method to not just science, but everything else in my life. This is why I am no longer an atheist, yet reject all modern religions; using the scientific method, it is unwise to reject the possibility of higher dimensions. However, it is entirely outrageous to claim that the possible existence of deity(s) have any relevance to the idea of worship.

Seriously. I do not know where "worship" came from, or where it is based on. It is entirely irrelevant in theological debates.

I would really like to know what is the justification of worshipping. Other than "the deity said so".
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:17   Link #1090
Sumeragi
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The point is that while the scientific method might be more "objective" in arriving at a conclusion, the end result (science) is still subject to the limitations of humans, both in the context of understanding the results of the scientific method and in formulating the methods that arrived at the conclusion.

Essentially, science is as flawed as humans are, despite the scientific method somewhat covering the deficiencies. While there might be progress towards a better understanding of reality, that understanding of reality in itself is questionable because humans are limited. The main problem I'm seeing with those who bring up science as some perfect alternative to religion is the seemingly "fundamentalist" (for lack of a better word) belief in science, a system that is as flawed as humans.

Vallen Chaos Valiant brought up a good word I was looking for: worship. I do not believe science to be something to be worshipped, just as I do not believe in worshipping religions. As long as humans are fundamentally flawed, nothing should be worshipped.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:25   Link #1091
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The point is that while the scientific method might be more "objective" in arriving at a conclusion, the end result (science) is still subject to the limitations of humans, both in the context of understanding the results of the scientific method and in formulating the methods that arrived at the conclusion.

Essentially, science is as flawed as humans are, despite the scientific method somewhat covering the deficiencies. While there might be progress towards a better understanding of reality, that understanding of reality in itself is questionable because humans are limited. The main problem I'm seeing with those who bring up science as some perfect alternative to religion is the seemingly "fundamental" (for lack of a better word) belief in science, a system that is as flawed as humans.
No one's saying science is perfect. Just that it's better than blind belief. Which is why sick people generally go to the doctor instead of trying to pray themselves healthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
But Vexx, imho you are too anti clerical, religion itself isn't evil,
He never said it was evil. He said that denying reality was a bad idea.

Quote:
it's needed for human, humankind need an answer to "what happens after life" and it's something science won't ever answer.
No, we really don't. I live quite well without having a definite answer to that question, and if I did feel the need, I wouldn't need religion to make up an answer.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:26   Link #1092
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The point is that while the scientific method might be more "objective" in arriving at a conclusion, the end result (science) is still subject to the limitations of humans, both in the context of understanding the results of the scientific method and in formulating the methods that arrived at the conclusion.

Essentially, science is as flawed as humans are, despite the scientific method somewhat covering the deficiencies. While there might be progress towards a better understanding of reality, that understanding of reality in itself is questionable because humans are limited. The main problem I'm seeing with those who bring up science as some perfect alternative to religion is the seemingly "fundamental" (for lack of a better word) belief in science, a system that is as flawed as humans.
That's where you are mistaken.

What made the scientific method superior to religion, isn't that it has less flaws; it's that the scientific method doesn't pretend it doesn't have any flaws.
The Scientific Method exists solely to change. To alter the interpretation in light of new data. When necessary, the scientific method can and would morph to fit new realities.

Religion claim to have all the answers. The Scientific Method is simply the promise that we would never stop looking for better answers.

This is not about being right or being wrong; it is about being able to known when you are wrong. And Religion is inherently incapable of admitting error, because the rules are not suppose to change.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:27   Link #1093
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The point is that while the scientific method might be more "objective" in arriving at a conclusion, the end result (science) is still subject to the limitations of humans, both in the context of understanding the results of the scientific method and in formulating the methods that arrived at the conclusion.

Essentially, science is as flawed as humans are, despite the scientific method somewhat covering the deficiencies. While there might be progress towards a better understanding of reality, that understanding of reality in itself is questionable because humans are limited. The main problem I'm seeing with those who bring up science as some perfect alternative to religion is the seemingly "fundamentalist" (for lack of a better word) belief in science, a system that is as flawed as humans.
Okay, I can follow that though I think it can easily be used an excuse by some to ignore logic and the scientific method. I'd rather use the scientific method as my tool than the alternative.

And @Zakoo, yeah, if I understand what "anti-clerical" means, yes I take a really dim view of large-scale institutionalization of religion. It is a magnet for powermongers who abuse spirituality to dictate and hold power. Eternal damnation for not doing what they say is a powerful tool with the fearful.

I completely understand the origins of religous thought and if it had stayed "by the campfire" (localized), it certainly soothes the night fears of the darkness. When some guy says "stone that lady or the night things will come" and he gets to loot the corpse as well as pass the plate... we gots a problem
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:29   Link #1094
Zakoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post

No, we really don't. I live quite well without having a definite answer to that question, and if I did feel the need, I wouldn't need religion to make up an answer.
Yes yes, I live fine with the idea that I'm only made of N, C, O and that once I die I will return to nothingness and those thing will be used to create ants, but your and mine case, aren't the case of the majority of human.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:31   Link #1095
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
That's where you are mistaken.

What made the scientific method superior to religion, isn't that it has less flaws; it's that the scientific method doesn't pretend it doesn't have any flaws.
The Scientific Method exists solely to change. To alter the interpretation in light of new data. When necessary, the scientific method can and would morph to fit new realities.

Religion claim to have all the answers. The Scientific Method is simply the promise that we would never stop looking for better answers.
I am certain I was not mistaken. I have been specifically comparing SCIENCE to religions, not the scientific method to religions. Both science and religions are systems, thus one should be comparing systems and not the method of arriving at the systems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
This is not about being right or being wrong; it is about being able to known when you are wrong. And Religion is inherently incapable of admitting error, because the rules are not suppose to change.
Unfortunately, that is the wrong kind of assumption to make. There are flexible religions that are supposed to change in the face of errors and changes, such as the initial state of Shinto (before we got the static State Shinto and all the problems that brought about). The belief that religions are incapable of admitting error is in itself an error, given that it ignores the development of religions. Just as Protestantism is a growth out of Catholicism, religions are capable of admitting errors (in terms of doctrines) and changing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Okay, I can follow that though I think it can easily be used an excuse by some to ignore logic and the scientific method. I'd rather use the scientific method as my tool than the alternative.
Well, the basic premise of my thought is that the scientific method IS the superior way of THINKING, but that does not mean the main end result (science) is necessarily superior. Essentially, one would need to understand that the method is not necessarily the system.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:37   Link #1096
Ithekro
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Balance between the two tends to be were humanity profits the most in terms of progress.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:40   Link #1097
Xacual
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Originally Posted by Chandela View Post
Better? If creating the misconception that the unemployment rate is falling more then it actually is among the people of the country is better then yeah I guess, hint hint.
That's how the jobless rate has always been calculated though, which means yes the jobless rate has fallen. I mean there's no reason to complain about this specific report since you might as well complain about all of them then.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:40   Link #1098
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Balance between the two tends to be were humanity profits the most in terms of progress.
I have been waiting for someone to say this. Unfortunately in this world, people wanting to be recognised wanted to be different, so they decided to take some unique, far-off and extreme opinion. Either on the side of extreme side of atheism or religion, then branding others to be improperly moralised.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:43   Link #1099
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I am certain I was not mistaken. I have been specifically comparing SCIENCE to religions, not the scientific method to religions. Both science and religions are systems, thus one should be comparing systems and not the method of arriving at the systems.

Well, the basic premise of my thought is that the scientific method IS the superior way of THINKING, but that does not mean the main end result (science) is necessarily superior. Essentially, one would need to understand that the method is not necessarily the system.
So, basically, twice a day, a stopped clock is better than a working, if human-made and thus imperfect, one.
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Old 2012-10-05, 16:43   Link #1100
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I have been waiting for someone to say this. Unfortunately in this world, people wanting to be recognised wanted to be different, so they decided to take some unique, far-off and extreme opinion. Either on the side of extreme side of atheism or religion, then branding others to be improperly moralised.
I can't say that because I question the notion there is some standard of balance between the two positions. Basically, this is cynicalism at its finest


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So, basically, twice a day, a stopped clock is better than a working, if human-made and thus imperfect, one.
Pretty sure you're using the wrong analogy. A better analogy would be: It is difficult to say that a mechanical clock is necessarily superior to a sundial.
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