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Old 2012-10-01, 21:28   Link #201
Gus3
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Yes, it is. There are countless ways to spell Makoto, most of them masculine, but Kousaka's name is spelled in a way that's usually feminine.
You think its because of his cross-dressing or his personality?
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Old 2012-10-02, 08:25   Link #202
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Originally Posted by Gus3 View Post
You think its because of his cross-dressing or his personality?
You mean in-world or meta?

In-world doesn't make any sense since obviously, you name your baby before any of that.
meta-wise, who knows. Ask Kio.
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Old 2012-10-06, 01:31   Link #203
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I think a spotted flower end is highly likely, mostly because Kousaka is severely underdeveloped. Maradame is the male character with the most development, followed by Hato and Sasahara. Kousaka is really a very minor character that we know little about.

There's really no indication given that Kousaka and Saki's relationship is anything but superficial. Saki keeps on complaining about how Kousaka really doesn't care that much for her. There's no evidence to the contrary, at all. If Kio wanted us to accept KousakaxSaki he would've given us at least 1 scene where Kousaka displays his affection for Saki, unprompted. Doesn't happen. He wants to break them up.
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Old 2012-10-06, 04:14   Link #204
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Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
Perhaps it wouldn't destroy those early developments, but it would unnecessarily cheapen a plethora of important decisions and significant character development from early Genshiken, and it's just not worth it at this point in the story, since it would ultimately occur solely in order to satisfy a small, but vocal, section of readers who have continuously hoped that Saki would somehow discard her feelings for Kousaka at some point, so that she can miraculously end up with Madarame, a person she's never had any romantic feelings for. Yes, people do often break up, but it's much more rare for people to fall out of love, which is what would be required here.

I've always thought Saki and Kousaka are an excellent couple, with pretty great chemistry, and, at the very least, they have far more realistic and believable chemistry than any she would have with Madarame were they to become a couple. Yes, their chemistry is quite good in Spotted Flower, but I really don't think it would translate well here at all.

A Spotted Flower end has always been an extremely slim possibility to me, and it remains so, due to the noticeable lack of proper and realistic foreshadowing to this eventual outcome. I do believe Kio wants to keep us guessing about the actual nature of Spotted Flower, but I also greatly believe it's an alternate universe, due to the rather strong likelihood that he wouldn't want to reveal their names or connections simply because of the very real possibility that it would prematurely cause many more readers to suddenly consider that as the true end of Genshiken. I also just think it was written to satisfy and appeal to a portion of readers (the Saki and Madarame shippers) that might otherwise not be satisfied by the actual conclusion of Genshiken.

Spoiler:

Still, despite all this analysis, the biggest part necessary for this eventual outcome is Saki breaking it off and falling out of love with Kousaka, which I don't see happening at all, without these moments coming off as unsatisfying, unnecessary and completely contrived, since there's been no hints toward any legitimate reasoning as to why she would ever do this. Also, I just don't think Kio would dissolve a relationship that satisfyingly developed throughout the entirety of early Genshiken, unless he wants to turn off a considerable section of the fanbase from continuing to read this.

In the end, however strongly I disagree with some of your points, I do somewhat understand your reasoning as to the possibility of this turning into a Spotted Flower conclusion, but do you honestly believe that Madarame should be rewarded for selfishly holding on to his unrequited love for his best friend's girlfriend for so long? Because I really, really don't. I think he should move on and find love elsewhere, and, for once, confidently decide to stop clinging onto a worn-out fantasy.
I don't think it's about hope for a relationship with Saki. He's pretty much let go. Well, he never had hope anyway.

It's about self-esteem. He was basically asking "Am I just some creepy otaku who's completely and forever unable to attract a girl?", and she said no. Which actually lets him free to hope for a real relationship some day.
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Old 2012-10-06, 08:11   Link #205
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Originally Posted by KaoruAoiShiho View Post
I think a spotted flower end is highly likely, mostly because Kousaka is severely underdeveloped. Maradame is the male character with the most development, followed by Hato and Sasahara. Kousaka is really a very minor character that we know little about.

There's really no indication given that Kousaka and Saki's relationship is anything but superficial. Saki keeps on complaining about how Kousaka really doesn't care that much for her. There's no evidence to the contrary, at all. If Kio wanted us to accept KousakaxSaki he would've given us at least 1 scene where Kousaka displays his affection for Saki, unprompted. Doesn't happen. He wants to break them up.
Aside from completely and utterly disagreeing with your views on the KousakaxSaki relationship, which seems to basically not be shown that much because of how stable it is, how can you possibly think that a Spotted Flower end is likely in any way? Despite how minor Kousaka's character is, Kio has made a point in establishing the inevitability of their relationship, and that it's going to be a lasting one. Because, for all of those readers who blindly suggest KousakaxSaki is superficial in order to build up MadaramexSaki, it certainly appears that both Kousaka and Saki love one another. Neither are main characters in Nidaime anyway, so there really isn't much time or necessity to display their affections, since they're already in a seemingly constant relationship.

Don't you think that if Kio, in fact, wanted to break them up, he would have done so before the previous chapter, so that the "fated" pairing of SakixMadarame that I continually hear would be something akin to the most beautiful relationship ever could have been established in chapter 80. Instead, Saki firmly rejects Madarame, and that definitely seems to be the end of it. I tend to doubt that Kousaka or Saki will be involved much anymore, and now Madarame can finally move on, and begin to form a proper and meaningful relationship with someone from his harem. Otherwise, what would the point of this chapter have been?

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't think it's about hope for a relationship with Saki. He's pretty much let go. Well, he never had hope anyway.

It's about self-esteem. He was basically asking "Am I just some creepy otaku who's completely and forever unable to attract a girl?", and she said no. Which actually lets him free to hope for a real relationship some day.
Agreed; I actually hadn't completely read the chapter at that point, and, in context, that line is much better and more understandable than I initially expected.
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Old 2012-10-06, 13:05   Link #206
KaoruAoiShiho
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Thanks for responding to my comments. I'm happy that there is still viable Genshiken discussion going on.

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Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
Which seems to basically not be shown that much because of how stable it is, how can you possibly think that a Spotted Flower end is likely in any way? Despite how minor Kousaka's character is, Kio has made a point in establishing the inevitability of their relationship, and that it's going to be a lasting one.
This seems to be a strange interpretation to me, and not one borne out by facts. Like any good author, Koi has been foreshadowing SakixKousaka's separation from the beginning. Contrast SakixKousaka and OhnoxTanaka post Volume 5. Neither are given a lot of attention, but concerning the little that has been given, for the cosplay couple all the interactions were relentlessly positive. We see them cooperating, doing couple-like things, having fun. Now SakixKousaka, disagreements and conflicts everywhere. Saki hates the crossdressing, but Kousaka still does it in secret. Saki thinks he spends too much time at work, Kousaka doesn't give a shit. Saki is insulted and annoyed by him not physically desiring her, Kousaka just can't bring himself to put down the controller and dedicate attention. Saki drapes herself over Kousaka every chance she gets but there's nothing in return. And lastly Saki is changing because of Kousaka but Kousaka is not changing because of Saki. Saki is replaceable for him.

Basically, I'm saying Koi has been very careful to leave out anything that might give us the impression that Kousaka thinks of Saki as anything other than a long-term fuck buddy. It's a very one-sided relationship, and the reason why Koi set up their relationship that way is because Koi wants them to break up down the line.

SakixKousaka has never been tested, has never been through a trial that didn't result is Saki laying down like a doormat. I'm eager to see how Kousaka would react to a true otaku beauty like Angela.



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Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
Don't you think that if Kio, in fact, wanted to break them up, he would have done so before the previous chapter, so that the "fated" pairing of SakixMadarame that I continually hear would be something akin to the most beautiful relationship ever could have been established in chapter 80.
This depends on how long you think Genshiken is going to go on and what the future will focus on. See here's the 2 alternatives (to SakixMada) we could be getting.

1. Genshiken turns into a fujoshi story with the new freshmen as the focus and talking about their problems until the end.
2. Genshiken will turn into a Mada harem story with Mada eventually paired off with one of the new girls.

Does anyone really think Koi is going for number 1? That seems implausible to me. Genshiken would lose readers and end up a failure. Number 2 is really also unlikely because of the simple lack of foreshadowing. The only serious romantic interest we've seen for Mada are Hato and Angela. Hato won't work for obvious reasons, and Angela won't either for even more obvious reasons. There's really not much to talk about there in terms of MadaxGirl. Going too deeply into either of the two aforementioned scenarios will repulse fans.

No. What Koi will bring us is a conclusion to the Hato/Freshmen arc and restart SakixMada. Saki will run into problems with Kousaka. He will find another girl, find a job that takes him away, something. But Saki will eventually realize that she doesn't mean anything to Kousaka and give him up.

Genshiken will conclude with the core, the focus of the story. Main girl (Saki) and Main guy (Mada)'s story! It will NOT end on some random drama concerning the freshmen. There's just no way that would happen.



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Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
Instead, Saki firmly rejects Madarame, and that definitely seems to be the end of it. I tend to doubt that Kousaka or Saki will be involved much anymore, and now Madarame can finally move on, and begin to form a proper and meaningful relationship with someone from his harem.
This could be the case, but I think it's more likely that this just sets up a later "twist", but really, a foreshadowed ending. A lot of the power of drama comes from leading you to expect one thing but then turning in another direction.



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Otherwise, what would the point of this chapter have been?
Drama, obviously. It was an entertaining chapter.
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Old 2012-10-06, 13:09   Link #207
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I don't think it's about hope for a relationship with Saki. He's pretty much let go. Well, he never had hope anyway.

It's about self-esteem. He was basically asking "Am I just some creepy otaku who's completely and forever unable to attract a girl?", and she said no. Which actually lets him free to hope for a real relationship some day.
with a Dude Look Like A Lady.

And yes, if anything, this chapter finally gave closure to the crush he had, so Kio can finally take him places. Including a boy's ass
Kaoru above is simply blinded by the faith of his Shipping Sect to see the storytelling purpose of the chapter.
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Old 2012-10-06, 13:14   Link #208
KaoruAoiShiho
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And yes, if anything, this chapter finally gave closure to the crush he had, so Kio can finally take him places. Including a boy's ass
Well this is a funny comment but there's no way you actually think that's going to happen.

Tell us what you *actually think Koi is going for and think about whether or not that actually make sense for Genshiken.
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Old 2012-10-06, 13:44   Link #209
Anh_Minh
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Well, I was careful in not saying "with a girl" or anything about the gender of the partner...
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Old 2012-10-06, 13:46   Link #210
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Originally Posted by KaoruAoiShiho View Post
Well this is a funny comment but there's no way you actually think that's going to happen.

Tell us what you *actually think Koi is going for and think about whether or not that actually make sense for Genshiken.
Madarame will finally have a tad bit less self-esteem problems, and won't run away from friendly engagements (i.e. flirting) as badly as he was before?
If Kio want to keep him in the spotlight, he may find a mate. He may not. He may focus back on the current protagonists of the 2nd gen, the freshmen.
But whatever Kio has in plan, this chapter meant to gave a long overdue closure to Madarame's crush on Saki.

Why is that so hard for you to understand, it's so obvious, it could be lit up with a pink, ugly neon light.
You seriously think that if Madarame doesn't end up with Saki, it makes no sense for Genshiken?
You think this chapter is just for shits&giggles, and Kio has no plans to take Madarame places, now that he is more emotionally situated?

Really?

Dude, don't tell me you're not blinded by ship-worshipping.
The entire chapter is about "moving on". Which apparently, in your own words, "makes no sense for Genshiken".

PS: Btw, trap comments hidden in white and fontsize 1 is a joke.
That too, should have been obvious. Hell I went through a legnthly effort to make that obvious as the blue sky.
Apparently it still fails. Internets. Bah.
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Old 2012-10-06, 14:00   Link #211
Anh_Minh
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I can definitely see his point about Kousaka, though. But I make something else of it: everything about Kousaka is absurd. His relationship with Saki's just one more element. No reason it won't go on that way.
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Old 2012-10-06, 14:04   Link #212
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Precisely.

He's basically a representation, a walking symbol.
The perfect otaku no one can be. It's both a running gag and a concept representation.
In a way, Ohno started out as one as well.

There's no character depth, because he doesn't need one.
In a sense, he's not supposed to be a representation of a human being.
He's more of an anti-thesis to the human characters... a neighbor Wilson.
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Old 2012-10-06, 18:10   Link #213
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Originally Posted by KaoruAoiShiho View Post
Saki is changing because of Kousaka but Kousaka is not changing because of Saki. Saki is replaceable for him.
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Originally Posted by KaoruAoiShiho View Post
Basically, I'm saying Koi has been very careful to leave out anything that might give us the impression that Kousaka thinks of Saki as anything other than a long-term fuck buddy. It's a very one-sided relationship, and the reason why Koi set up their relationship that way is because Koi wants them to break up down the line.
Just because Kousaka isn't drastically changing for Saki in no way means she's replaceable to him. Basically, that's just his personality; I think you're reading too much into his actions as a way to state he doesn't care for her, which is certainly not true.

These problems are portrayed as insignificant because they are in love with one another. They don't have to be shown as a couple that is all over each other for that to remain the case. Basically, Saki, although she certainly gets annoyed at times, is ultimately accepting of the flaws she perceives in him, or else she would have left him a long time ago. They have their problems, of course, but they've all been shown as ultimately insignificant. Plus, you're really focusing on the negative traits of their relationship without seeing the positive ones. Simply put, it was a great relationship in early Genshiken, and I wouldn't want to see it unnecessarily tossed aside just to satisfy the ever-hopeful Madarame x Saki shippers. Honestly, I see a Kousaka x Saki marriage happening towards the end of the story. It would be an excellent way to conclude the written portion of their relationship.

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See here's the 2 alternatives (to SakixMada) we could be getting.

1. Genshiken turns into a fujoshi story with the new freshmen as the focus and talking about their problems until the end.
2. Genshiken will turn into a Mada harem story with Mada eventually paired off with one of the new girls.

Number 2 is really also unlikely because of the simple lack of foreshadowing. The only serious romantic interest we've seen for Mada are Hato and Angela. Hato won't work for obvious reasons, and Angela won't either for even more obvious reasons. There's really not much to talk about there in terms of MadaxGirl. Going too deeply into either of the two aforementioned scenarios will repulse fans, since most fans already expect and are fine with, option 2 occurring.
There's a plethora of directions the story, and, by extension, Madarame's character, could take that doesn't involve any of these alternatives. I agree with you in thinking that the first option is considerably unlikely, and yet it's still more possible and realistic than a Saki x Madarame ending. On the other hand, I think option two is quite likely, and I feel, adequately foreshadowed so far. I think an Angela ending could work if Kio decides to develop her much more. Sue could also work, I feel. Or it could be an entirely separate girl that hasn't even been introduced. If the manga continues for as long as you're implying (I don't think it will; possibly another 20 chapters or so), there's plenty of time for that to happen. Not to mention, a Saki x Madarame ending would probably repulse just as many, if not more, fans than the first option, and it would certainly repulse far more fans than the completely reasonable and decently foreshadowed second option, which most readers have expected to be the eventual direction that this would take for a very long time. They seem perfectly fine with it as well.

What about Saki not working for obvious reasons? You consistently fail to mention her perspective in this situation, and, the simple fact is that she has no romantic feelings for him. If there was even a possibility of those two getting together, shouldn't Saki, over the previous 80 chapters, have shown the slightest bit of attraction towards him. But, through it all, she hasn't, even though she knew perfectly well of his feelings for her. For Madarame, it would obviously be great if she would miraculously stop loving Kousaka to eventually fall for him, but that's never going to happen, and it shouldn't if Kio wants to keep this story realistic and believable.

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No. What Koi will bring us is a conclusion to the Hato/Freshmen arc and restart SakixMada. Saki will run into problems with Kousaka. He will find another girl, find a job that takes him away, something. But Saki will eventually realize that she doesn't mean anything to Kousaka and give him up.
If Saki were to run into problems with Kousaka, it would have happened a long time ago. If it were to happen now, it would be completely unrealistic, and, as a result, it would cheaply throw away so much significant development from early Genshiken solely in order to come up with an ending that deters from all that came before. Once again, despite his personal faults, your view that he doesn't love her, much less care for her, is more than a little biased, since the reason Saki's ultimately accepting of these traits is because she knows that Kousaka loves her and is always there for her.

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This could be the case, but I think it's more likely that this just sets up a later "twist", but really, a foreshadowed ending. A lot of the power of drama comes from leading you to expect one thing but then turning in another direction.
In this case though, it wouldn't be a dramatic twist; it would just be contrived as hell.

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Originally Posted by KaoruAoiShiho View Post
Drama, obviously. It was an entertaining chapter.
For all the instances of foreshadowing you've detailed, this is the largest one by a mile, yet you dismiss it as ultimately irrelevant. This chapter not only foreshadows him finally moving on for good, but states it in such a straightforward fashion, it's really rather ridiculous to not expect this to leave a permanent impression on the direction this will take for the remainder of the story.

Above all though, Madarame, despite how great of a character he is, doesn't deserve to have the unrequited love for his best friend's girlfriend rewarded, and the latest chapter illustrates that point thoroughly. A Saki x Madarame ending, aside from coming out of nowhere, would also retroactively ruin one of the first meaningful chapters of Nidaime and turn it into something completely meaningless, since it would effectively undercut Madarame's extremely significant choice to finally move on.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I can definitely see his point about Kousaka, though. But I make something else of it: everything about Kousaka is absurd. His relationship with Saki's just one more element. No reason it won't go on that way.
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Precisely.

He's basically a representation, a walking symbol.
The perfect otaku no one can be. It's both a running gag and a concept representation.
In a way, Ohno started out as one as well.

There's no character depth, because he doesn't need one.
In a sense, he's not supposed to be a representation of a human being.
He's more of an anti-thesis to the human characters... a neighbor Wilson.
All of this, in regards to Kousaka's character. Spot on.

Last edited by zigantz22; 2012-10-06 at 18:21.
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Old 2012-10-06, 23:30   Link #214
Kazu-kun
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Precisely.

He's basically a representation, a walking symbol.
The perfect otaku no one can be. It's both a running gag and a concept representation.
In a way, Ohno started out as one as well.

There's no character depth, because he doesn't need one.
In a sense, he's not supposed to be a representation of a human being.
He's more of an anti-thesis to the human characters... a neighbor Wilson.
You know, it's kind of a pity Kio decided to go that route with him. There was a time when he could have developed Kousaka if he wanted to too. Right after the clubroom burns down, there are a few moments that suggest there's more than meets the eye to Kousaka's character, a subtle depth that can only be seen in very specific situations. Sadly, Kio lets the chance to build upon those little moments of depth pass, and Kousaka's character is practically forgotten in the following arcs.

Kousaka could have become a really interesting character, I think.
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Old 2012-10-07, 05:29   Link #215
Gus3
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Thanks for responding to my comments. I'm happy that there is still viable Genshiken discussion going on.



This seems to be a strange interpretation to me, and not one borne out by facts. Like any good author, Koi has been foreshadowing SakixKousaka's separation from the beginning. Contrast SakixKousaka and OhnoxTanaka post Volume 5. Neither are given a lot of attention, but concerning the little that has been given, for the cosplay couple all the interactions were relentlessly positive. We see them cooperating, doing couple-like things, having fun. Now SakixKousaka, disagreements and conflicts everywhere. Saki hates the crossdressing, but Kousaka still does it in secret. Saki thinks he spends too much time at work, Kousaka doesn't give a shit. Saki is insulted and annoyed by him not physically desiring her, Kousaka just can't bring himself to put down the controller and dedicate attention. Saki drapes herself over Kousaka every chance she gets but there's nothing in return. And lastly Saki is changing because of Kousaka but Kousaka is not changing because of Saki. Saki is replaceable for him.

Basically, I'm saying Koi has been very careful to leave out anything that might give us the impression that Kousaka thinks of Saki as anything other than a long-term fuck buddy. It's a very one-sided relationship, and the reason why Koi set up their relationship that way is because Koi wants them to break up down the line.

SakixKousaka has never been tested, has never been through a trial that didn't result is Saki laying down like a doormat. I'm eager to see how Kousaka would react to a true otaku beauty like Angela.





This depends on how long you think Genshiken is going to go on and what the future will focus on. See here's the 2 alternatives (to SakixMada) we could be getting.

1. Genshiken turns into a fujoshi story with the new freshmen as the focus and talking about their problems until the end.
2. Genshiken will turn into a Mada harem story with Mada eventually paired off with one of the new girls.

Does anyone really think Koi is going for number 1? That seems implausible to me. Genshiken would lose readers and end up a failure. Number 2 is really also unlikely because of the simple lack of foreshadowing. The only serious romantic interest we've seen for Mada are Hato and Angela. Hato won't work for obvious reasons, and Angela won't either for even more obvious reasons. There's really not much to talk about there in terms of MadaxGirl. Going too deeply into either of the two aforementioned scenarios will repulse fans.

No. What Koi will bring us is a conclusion to the Hato/Freshmen arc and restart SakixMada. Saki will run into problems with Kousaka. He will find another girl, find a job that takes him away, something. But Saki will eventually realize that she doesn't mean anything to Kousaka and give him up.

Genshiken will conclude with the core, the focus of the story. Main girl (Saki) and Main guy (Mada)'s story! It will NOT end on some random drama concerning the freshmen. There's just no way that would happen.





This could be the case, but I think it's more likely that this just sets up a later "twist", but really, a foreshadowed ending. A lot of the power of drama comes from leading you to expect one thing but then turning in another direction.





Drama, obviously. It was an entertaining chapter.
While I can't say how likely a Mada x Saki outcome is at the moment, I do agree with most of what you said about Saki and Kousaka's relationship. Though I wouldn't describe it as harshly. They're just not compatible. Normally I would just chalk this up to bad writing, but Kio has already proven that he can write compatible and convincing couples well. Which really bugs me since I've always considered Saki x Kousaka to be the main couple of the series. It makes me wonder if he's going to keep them around to develop them better, or just send them on their way again.

Word of advice, don't absolutely rule out any outcome. I think Mada X Saki is still a good possibility, like Kaoru I also believe that a lot of what Kio has written could be considered legitimate foreshadowing. Do I think that its the only or even most likely possibility? No. The previous chapter may very well have been the end of it. Chapter 80 left things ambiguous and none of us should pretend like it didn't. Like I said, don't rule anything out. Never say "so and so will/will never happen because of this or that piece of evidence. And if you believe otherwise you're only fooling yourself." I've seen it before. You never know what the author is going to do for sure and you may end up eating your words later.

Last edited by Gus3; 2012-10-07 at 05:55.
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Old 2012-10-07, 07:10   Link #216
KaoruAoiShiho
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These problems are portrayed as insignificant because they are in love with one another.
They haven't broken up yet, but there is a reason why Koi is writing this large amount of conflicts into this relationship and not any others! To spell out the obvious, it's because he intends to produce drama between this couple and not the others.

Quote:
Simply put, it was a great relationship in early Genshiken, and I wouldn't want to see it unnecessarily tossed aside just to satisfy the ever-hopeful Madarame x Saki shippers.
Where is your evidence? How is this relationship "great". All I see from early Genshiken is an incredible amount of whining from Saki and an equally incredible amount of not giving a shit from Kousaka.

That's what I'm saying, your interpretation is contrary to the story that's been given by Koi.

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I can definitely see his point about Kousaka, though. But I make something else of it: everything about Kousaka is absurd. His relationship with Saki's just one more element. No reason it won't go on that way.
Problem with this is that it doesn't really take much for Kousaka to throw the relationship a bone.

Maybe 1 or 2 panels is sufficient to show that Kousaka cares about Saki. Koi doesn't do this.

At this point you have to either admit that Koi is doing it purposefully, he's setting up the relationship as bad, incompatible. It's speculation to say that this is foreshadowing a breakup, but it should be indisputable that Koi wants us to see that they have a weak relationship.

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
He's basically a representation, a walking symbol.
There's no character depth, because he doesn't need one.
In a sense, he's not supposed to be a representation of a human being.
He's more of an anti-thesis to the human characters... a neighbor Wilson.
And... there you have it. Exactly why SakixKousaka isn't meant to feel stable. How would you feel if Jill ends up with neighbor Wilson at the end of Home Improvement?

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I agree with you in thinking that the first option is considerably unlikely, and yet it's still more possible and realistic than a Saki x Madarame ending.
At least 50% agreement on this sentence, that's a start!

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On the other hand, I think option two is quite likely, and I feel, adequately foreshadowed so far. I think an Angela ending could work if Kio decides to develop her much more. Sue could also work, I feel. Or it could be an entirely separate girl that hasn't even been introduced. If the manga continues for as long as you're implying (I don't think it will; possibly another 20 chapters or so), there's plenty of time for that to happen.
I think this is possible. I'm not disagreeing, but I think this is a possible ending.


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What about Saki not working for obvious reasons? You consistently fail to mention her perspective in this situation, and, the simple fact is that she has no romantic feelings for him. If there was even a possibility of those two getting together, shouldn't Saki, over the previous 80 chapters, have shown the slightest bit of attraction towards him. But, through it all, she hasn't, even though she knew perfectly well of his feelings for her. For Madarame, it would obviously be great if she would miraculously stop loving Kousaka to eventually fall for him, but that's never going to happen, and it shouldn't if Kio wants to keep this story realistic and believable.
If you compare Saki to Angela or any of the other girls, we see that Koi has been consistently hinting at something going on there. Saki's growing acceptance for Otaku is because of Mada, and in the Genshiken Mada is the one she becomes closest to. This is the meaning of what Koi has been writing this entire time.

If you look at Koi's writing, you'll see that he doesn't really do romantic buildup. Check out OhnoxTanaka, SakixKousaka, SasaxOugie. There has never been any overt romance from 2 parties before the concluding scenes. Koi doesn't write the typical shounenshit where 2 characters stare at each other's backs pining away for 10 chapters. Just doesn't happen. What he does do is, show the two characters interacting in a positive, friendly, and productive way. Then he cinches it in a confession (to the reader, not necessarily to the other party). This is what happened to Sasahara and Kousaka. Ohno and Tanaka happened entirely off-screen.

If you look at what's been happening, you'll see that that pattern is the same for SakixMada. The only other potentiality here is for HatoxMada, which would probably be unacceptable for Genshiken (though on some level I would welcome that lol).

Lastly, you used a term that I don't think should be applied to Genshiken. "Fall for him." You're using an overly romanticized ideal of love in a series that has never been about that nor ever will be about that.

OhnoxTanaka and SasaxOugie are both about discovering compatibility and then thinking, hmm, maybe I should get a girlfriend?

Along the same lines, nobody would call Kousaka's "Do you want to kiss?" "fall for her." That would be risible.

Fact of the matter is, if Kousaka and Saki breaks up for whatever reason, she's going to need comfort and a new boyfriend.

Koi has consistently wrote friends who understand each other becoming lovers. That is his forte, that is what Genshiken has largely been about, and that is why SakixMada is likely if Saki breaks up with Kousaka.


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Not to mention, a Saki x Madarame ending would probably repulse just as many, if not more, fans than the first option, and it would certainly repulse far more fans than the completely reasonable and decently foreshadowed second option, which most readers have expected to be the eventual direction that this would take for a very long time. They seem perfectly fine with it as well.
A Mada ending of any kind would probably be fine with the fans. But it would just be so elegant to end with Mada and the First Girl. The problem is that a MadaxRandomGirl ending would turn Genshiken into a Mada harem manga. That would just be deplorable. Do people understand this? It would be Mada's Otaku Adventures instead of "Genshiken". Look up above at what I wrote relationships in Genshiken has been about. Friends that come to understand each other, realize they're compatible, and then become lovers. KousakaxSaki is the only one that violates this principle.



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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Madarame will finally have a tad bit less self-esteem problems, and won't run away from friendly engagements (i.e. flirting) as badly as he was before?
If Kio want to keep him in the spotlight, he may find a mate. He may not. He may focus back on the current protagonists of the 2nd gen, the freshmen.
But whatever Kio has in plan, this chapter meant to gave a long overdue closure to Madarame's crush on Saki.

Why is that so hard for you to understand, it's so obvious, it could be lit up with a pink, ugly neon light.
You seriously think that if Madarame doesn't end up with Saki, it makes no sense for Genshiken?
You think this chapter is just for shits&giggles, and Kio has no plans to take Madarame places, now that he is more emotionally situated?

Really?
Man, you're condescending as hell and I'm not really even sure if I want to reply to you. Fantastic strawmen and lack of reading comprehension there buddy.

You realize that Mada gaining confidence and moving on doesn't really contradict a spotted flower end right? It's a common trope in drama where one party gets rejected, moves on, and then they get back together again for whatever reason.


Final Edit:

To all of you people calling me a shipper. Nah bros! I'm not a shipper. I don't *want MadaxSaki. I wasn't really all that interested in this pairing until I read spotted flower anyway. I'm just calling it as I see it, with the hope of staving off any calls of "bad writing" when MadaxSaki does happen by explaining why this conclusion is rather obvious.

Last edited by KaoruAoiShiho; 2012-10-07 at 07:43.
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Old 2012-10-07, 07:50   Link #217
aohige
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Originally Posted by KaoruAoiShiho View Post
Man, you're condescending as hell and I'm not really even sure if I want to reply to you. Fantastic strawmen and lack of reading comprehension there buddy.
Showing your true colors now, eh?
Uh, you're the one that started the whole "you're not making any sense, explain it in a matter that's not bullshit reply." So I returned the favor and gave one. Too bad you didn't like the answer. Carry on with the Pot & Kettle if you wish.

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You realize that Mada gaining confidence and moving on doesn't really contradict a spotted flower end right? It's a common trope in drama where one party gets rejected, moves on, and then they get back together again for whatever reason.
But you replied to the part where I pointed out the chapter was a closure of the plot, so that he can move on from it. It suggest nothing of rekindling at this point, and you're doing nothing but forcing your wish on something that's not there yet.
(emphasis on "yet")

You freaking went as far as calling out everything else as "doens't make sense for Genshiken 2".
You're telling me to get off my high horse, while you're calling out orders from a ten feet tall elephant!

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why this conclusion is rather obvious.
Basically, you're jumping the gun, and calling out the conclusion of this series, and shooting down anyone who disagrees at this point. You do not know where the manga is headed, the road has not been paved yet, and probably should halt this "I'm right you people are all wrong" crusade. In a desperate effort to do so, you're completely neglecting the purpose and plot movement at micro scale (i.e. chapters), and completely focused at just guessing the overall picture. Thus, "blinded".

Looking back at the start of the argument, you didn't start out that way... I think you got caught in a debate you can't back down from, and escalated it towards an absolute position. I feel sorry that you were put in that position, but it's probably best if you started to look at your conviction from a different angle now.
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Last edited by aohige; 2012-10-07 at 08:14.
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Old 2012-10-07, 08:01   Link #218
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by KaoruAoiShiho View Post
Problem with this is that it doesn't really take much for Kousaka to throw the relationship a bone.

Maybe 1 or 2 panels is sufficient to show that Kousaka cares about Saki. Koi doesn't do this.
That would be out of character. Kousaka doesn't care about things, or put in any effort. Things just... go his way while he follows his whims. Like his proficiency with video games, or his programmer job. And no matter what happens, he always has that easy, unconcerned smiling face. Saki's just one more thing he kinda wants, but doesn't need to put any effort in.

Quote:
At this point you have to either admit that Koi is doing it purposefully, he's setting up the relationship as bad, incompatible. It's speculation to say that this is foreshadowing a breakup, but it should be indisputable that Koi wants us to see that they have a weak relationship.
One wonders why you'd think Madarame would be any more compatible...

Quote:
If you compare Saki to Angela or any of the other girls, we see that Koi has been consistently hinting at something going on there. Saki's growing acceptance for Otaku is because of Mada, and in the Genshiken Mada is the one she becomes closest to. This is the meaning of what Koi has been writing this entire time.
Hm, no. The two driving forces behind Saki's growing otaku-ness are Kousaka and Ohno. Madarame is just one of those guys she's learned to tolerate. And yes, like a bit, but he's no different from Sasahara or Tanaka.
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Old 2012-10-07, 08:19   Link #219
aohige
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
You know, it's kind of a pity Kio decided to go that route with him. There was a time when he could have developed Kousaka if he wanted to too. Right after the clubroom burns down, there are a few moments that suggest there's more than meets the eye to Kousaka's character, a subtle depth that can only be seen in very specific situations. Sadly, Kio lets the chance to build upon those little moments of depth pass, and Kousaka's character is practically forgotten in the following arcs.

Kousaka could have become a really interesting character, I think.
In a way, I think Kio is doing just that with Hato.
Hato had all the characteristics of being a symbol, full of archetype characteristics and simply provide "I'm a background archetype that acts and talks in certain manner" character. Instead, he chose to flesh out the character in first person perspective, and develop him.

I think he has the luxury to do so now, since he can put the first-gen cast in that backdrop character spot (such as Sasahara), instead of providing one from the current set.
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Old 2012-10-07, 08:29   Link #220
KaoruAoiShiho
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That would be out of character. Kousaka doesn't care about things, or put in any effort. Things just... go his way while he follows his whims. Like his proficiency with video games, or his programmer job. And no matter what happens, he always has that easy, unconcerned smiling face. Saki's just one more thing he kinda wants, but doesn't need to put any effort in.
Yes this is his character. But this same thing makes him a bad boyfriend and gives off the impression that his relationship with Saki is kind of superficial.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
One wonders why you'd think Madarame would be any more compatible...
Because Madarame is a developed character unlike Kousaka. Putting it more harshly, he's not a sociopath and would actually treat Saki like someone he cares for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Hm, no. The two driving forces behind Saki's growing otaku-ness are Kousaka and Ohno. Madarame is just one of those guys she's learned to tolerate.
Ohno and Kousaka obviously had influences on her, but so did Mada. Recall the scene where Mada draws the smiley face in volume 1 with the cave painting explanation. That was the point where she realized, oh, this otaku thing makes sense, instead of just being a disgusting alien thing.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And yes, like a bit, but he's no different from Sasahara or Tanaka.
Hmm, disagree, though I can see how you think that. Koi hasn't really given us much indication that Saki thinks particularly differently about Mada, but at the same time he went out of his way to give us MadaxSaki scenes. This is basically his instruction to the reader that MadaxSaki is different from Sasa or Tanaka.

@aohige
I think it's pretty clear that what I'm writing is just speculation and interpretation on my part. There are commonalities with certain posters and differences with others. But I'm not Koi nor a mind-reader nor someone who has any superior insight or knowledge. I'm just explaining my analysis. I did not think a disclaimer was necessary.

Last edited by KaoruAoiShiho; 2012-10-07 at 08:51.
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