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Old 2012-10-06, 11:52   Link #7641
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somersault View Post
@gundamfan49348309430

Just because the creators of the show didn't declare an official pairing, that doesn't mean there weren't hints of what could possibly be; honestly, Shirley and Kallen were both candidates to develop a romantic relationship with Lelouch, had circumstances allowed it.
I'm not interested in hints about Lelouch's romantic feelings.
I'm interested in facts.
All of the three major potential loves in his life were candidates, but according to the anime, not one of them won the prize (Lelouch).
Using pure speculation only (i.e. opinion), Shirley wins in my view because both she and Lelouch are dead.
Of course, using purely speculation from the anime we can also say that the only woman who was able to stop Lelouch in his rebellion was Euphie.
He did act romantically towards her on Kaminejima Island, and the R2 Guidebook does say he loved her.
A big part of his motivation for ZR is to clear her name.
Maybe we're all wrong, and as Setsubo Bunny used to say, our boy Lelouch is really screwed up in the head.

Quote:
My point is, just because there are no tons of interviews to say "THIS IS THE COUPLE, I'M ANNOUNCING THIS FOR THE PEOPLE THAT ARE 5 YRS OLD AND CANNOT DRAW CONCLUSIONS ON THEIR OWN K BAI BAI".
When triangles or rectangles are involved, usually the writers refrain from declaring canons and such, so everybody can believe the couple they supported was the most plausible. Well, tough shit, creators are trolling while at the same time hinting. (hinting to the smart people, obviously.)
In other words I've owned you in this argument and you now it.
You don't respect the views of others and you've shown that repeatedly here with regard to what other Code Geass fans think Lelouch's feelings/thoughts were.

In contrast, I do respect ALL of the other fans, even the Rolo x Lelouch, Milley x Lelouch, Euphie x Lelouch, Kaguya x Lelouch, and Suzaku x Lelouch fans.
They are no more or less correct about Lelouch's romantic feelings than the Shirley-, CC-, or Kallen x Lelouch fans; and that has been my point since I first came here.
Unless I see something official that declares what Lelouch's feelings/thoughts were towards any of the women (and a few men) who loved him, I'm not going to tolerate declarations of "Lelouch loved A, B, or C" as factual because they aren't.

Quote:
There are several examples of that, on the top of my head Macross Frontier for one, everybody with a functional brain knows that the canon couple is Alto/Sheryl, or FFVII, same with Tifa/Cloud.
That's because Macross has always been clear on their couples from the begining.
Even the love triangle between Minmay, Misa, and Hikaru had a final outcome of Misa and Hikaru going off into the galaxy together with Minmay realizing that Hikaru belongs with Misa.
I mention this because Macross Frontier is supposed to mirror the original series.
Head writer Hiroyuki Yoshino came right out in Newtype magazine and said that Alto and Sheryl were the offical pairing after the last episode just like Hikaru and Misa were.
There are even offical wedding pictures of those two.

Spoiler for Alto and Sheryl:


Spoiler for 2nd Alto Sheryl offical wedding pic:


That's far from ambiguous like Code Geass is.

Code Geass doesn't have anything close to being that concrete.
We don't know what Lelouch's feelings are the way we know what Hikaru and Alto felt towards Misa and Sheryl respectively.
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Old 2012-10-06, 13:38   Link #7642
somersault
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
blah blah
blah blah blah

blahblahblah

Code Geass doesn't have anything close to being that concrete.
We don't know what Lelouch's feelings are the way we know what Hikaru and Alto felt towards Misa and Sheryl respectively.
Same ol', same ol'. Like I said, if you need someone to point to you, that when Lelouch chooses to leave Kallen out of ZR, his most valuable asset in terms of combat, so she can live on like he said to her, that speaks volumes.

Next thing I know, is that you tell me Jack from the movie Titanic didn't love Rose, because he didn't tell her he did, not even once in the movie. Yet his actions spoke louder.

See, hint - actions sometimes speak louder than words.

/in b4 you tell me "blah blah Lelouch had Suzaku, what did he need Kallen for?" To which I will reply to you, to ensure that ZR is successful, for two awesome pilots will always be stronger than one. But no, he left her out of it because feelings.

Still mad? I guess so.
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Old 2012-10-06, 16:04   Link #7643
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by shinigami99 View Post
Lelouch has his harem, and I'm happy with that, but I think it would have been better for the writers to try to develop these "relationships" more than they were in the series. Probably the most developed one was ShirLulu, yet even in this pairing we are not sure to the extent to which Lelouch liked Shirley. The fact that there is a debate (and the fact that people are relying on post-series guidebooks) about the extent of the C.C. and Kallen's relationship with Lelouch (Partner, lover etc.) means that this wasn't developed as it should (or at least, what I thought it should have been).
Agreed.
They decided not to get into the meat of it as Okouchi points out in the Continue 42 interviews he did in 2008/09. Taniguichi explains that they left that open at the end of the show (Newtype Nov. 2009 issue).
That's how I know for a fact there is no official pairing and why I get on the Kalulu-extremists so much.
They act like they have some type of inside information on Lelouch's mind and/or feelings, yet when the same methods they use are applied to the two other female leads they get all bent out of shape about it.
It's rather hypocritical on their part.

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However, this also can't be helped since shit was continuously hitting the fan in Code Geass and there was literally no possible time for this development to take place. Or at least, what was shown in the anime. Code Geass wouldn't really be Code Geass without shit hitting the fan all the time so I guess sacrifices had to be made.
And that is exactly what both the director and head writer said.
Lelouch's focus is his rebellion, not women chasing him.

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Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
Since the character I supported died, I really don't have a car in this race, but I'll say this much, all three female characters had their chance, unfortunately Leluich was too hung out on revenge, a crappy childhood, a sister fetish, and just a general doom and gloom atitude, that any of Tge three could have paraded naked in front of him and he might have got an itch!
Suffice it too say I've moved on and am enjoying Akito now.
But please continue the delusional meanderings, it's quite entertaining!
We agree.
Normally I wouldn't give a Kalulu the time of day on this issue, but I was feeling feisty this week.
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Old 2012-10-07, 00:18   Link #7644
Aquaman OS
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He cared for all of them. But in the end romance and Lelouch were not to be. And none of them won, since he died (unless you count Shirley, but since they both died, well.....that's not exactly a happy win there).

Since Lelouch is confirmed to be dead, and it's unlikely they'll ever revisit the Geass verse after ZR, the matter is basically closed.

Mayhaps at a later date they'll make an AU film or something where he does get one of the girls (that seems to be a popular thing to do) but that's not now.
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Old 2012-10-07, 13:32   Link #7645
darthfury78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I'm not interested in hints about Lelouch's romantic feelings.
I'm interested in facts.
All of the three major potential loves in his life were candidates, but according to the anime, not one of them won the prize (Lelouch).

That's far from ambiguous like Code Geass is.

Code Geass doesn't have anything close to being that concrete.
We don't know what Lelouch's feelings are the way we know what Hikaru and Alto felt towards Misa and Sheryl respectively.
I agree that Code Geass official pairings was ambiguous in contrast to Macross Frontier. While I would loved to have seen Mily x Lelouch, along with Kallen x Lelouch, I have to say that the TV show provided us with neither outcome, as well as not providing any development between Suzaku x Cecil which mirrors Hikaru x Misa from Macross.

But as far as death goes, we could say that either there is Shirley x Lelouch or (if he's an immortal) C.C. x Lelouch as the final outcome to the story.

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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
He cared for all of them. But in the end romance and Lelouch were not to be. And none of them won, since he died (unless you count Shirley, but since they both died, well.....that's not exactly a happy win there).

Since Lelouch is confirmed to be dead, and it's unlikely they'll ever revisit the Geass verse after ZR, the matter is basically closed.

Mayhaps at a later date they'll make an AU film or something where he does get one of the girls (that seems to be a popular thing to do) but that's not now.
I too doubt that they'll ever be a Code Geass series that continues after Zero's requiem. As you correctly stated, the only possible option would be an alternate version of Code Geass R2 where Lelouch won the conflict against Suzaku at the close of Season One. And the only way for Lelouch to have won was with Kallen's help. Her decision to run away allowed Suzaku to win the conflict and that's what led to the change of Code Geass R2. But that's just my opinion.
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Old 2012-10-07, 23:37   Link #7646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
But as far as death goes, we could say that either there is Shirley x Lelouch or (if he's an immortal) C.C. x Lelouch as the final outcome to the story.
You already said what I want to said, since the ending itself is ambiguous (there are some hint that Lelouch live and the author self said the ending based on our interpretation). And the director have a good reason to cut it because he don't want to made same anime with same protagonist since they too popular to replace like Pokemon series (There always Shigeru/Ash, Pikachu, Takeshi/Brock (replace briefly but come again) and Tim Rocket).

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I too doubt that they'll ever be a Code Geass series that continues after Zero's requiem. As you correctly stated, the only possible option would be an alternate version of Code Geass R2 where Lelouch won the conflict against Suzaku at the close of Season One. And the only way for Lelouch to have won was with Kallen's help. Her decision to run away allowed Suzaku to win the conflict and that's what led to the change of Code Geass R2. But that's just my opinion.
That why Leluch won't trust Kallen 100% again, unlike Shirley or C.C.

Last edited by db84x; 2012-10-07 at 23:56.
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Old 2014-10-25, 12:21   Link #7647
Crimsonbitter
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Since lelouch has been discussed in detail much by others, there is no furthur need to bring up his personal history here.

This discussion aims to primarily address lelouch's motivations and whether he indeed may be dubbed a hero.

Personally to me, i harbour no bit of resentment against lelouch. However, i most certainly do not think lelouch can be considered a hero, not even a bit.

Throughout the series, lelouch's motivations behind his cruelty are purely that of selfsh intentions. To begin with, he begins his pointless campaign against the empire just to seek revenge against a bitter dispute he had with the empire. No where is it hinted that his intentions were to save the world if you put aside his pretentious rantings about making the world a better place.

The series then proceeds, with lelouch losing the meaning behind his actions, only to discover a new ome again. This is yet again proof that he is unfocused on the goal of saving the world, amd is merely using it as a pretext to justify his cruelty to the audience. This is clearly seen in many examples, such as how he literally broke down and stopped his "noble plans" when his sister was presumbly dead. The cliched heroic ending that code geass plays on is merely lelouch realising his mistakes and seeking a way to escape and atone for it. It is no where near heroic, or even sad. Many watching it can only say that he deserved it, though we do wish for a happier resolution, like conspiracy theories about him being alive. Ultimately we need to recognise this somewhat positive feelings arise solely because of our desire for it, and not lelouch being a dark hero that deserved a better end.

If you would look at the example of another famous but genuine dark hero, this difference in sincerity is made explicit. Kiritsugu Emiya, the antihero from fate/zero is a more genuine example of a dark hero, where he remains true to his ideology, making painful sacrifices along his path to seeking salvation for all. Also, he remains focused om his task, to the point of being able to reject all power and greed just to pursue his belief in the end.

In conclusion, lelouch is not a worthy candidate for the title of dark hero. He strikes me overall as just a manipulative, petty, proud person, though he has the courage to make ammendments for his mistakes in the end, thus preventimg him from beimg considered a villian
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Old 2014-10-25, 13:02   Link #7648
Kusaja
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In the end, there is no universal definition of heroism or villainy. Which is why we can debate this.

I believe we shouldn't be dismissing several of Lelouch's motivations far too easily. I would certainly consider him to be self-centered, in a sense, but he did explicitly and implicitly want to make the world a better place. That wasn't being "pretentious" as you have claimed, since he did take various steps towards the goal. The fact he also had other concerns and interests in mind doesn't change this. Beyond the mere acts of cruelty you mention, he did try to help other people even when it didn't necessarily serve his quest for revenge.

It is true that Lelouch has to deal with a number of moments of doubt, when his most personal feelings are involved, but that doesn't mean his actions have no meaning in general. It means he is still a conflicted young man and not a perfect or mature individual, but rather someone who must face challenges and undergo development in order to overcome both his internal and external obstacles. Which he does.

I also think your interpretation of the ending is highly subjective, slightly inaccurate and widely open to debate. Lelouch was always aware about the questionable morality of his actions, so that wasn't something he realized only at the end. There was a need to atone at work, yes, but also a desire to actually change the world. This cannot really be denied, even if you might not agree with how the show presented it. Calling it escapism is possible but nevertheless far too simplistic. Beyond that...what is or isn't considered sad is always going to depend on the perspective of each member of the audience and how they connected to the character(s) involved.

Kiritsugu Emiya is a very different character and not the only possible version of a dark hero, so the direct comparison is of limited use. Among other factors, he is both older and more mature, in order to explain why his resolve is greater, as well as why his emotions are more reserved. Based on their respective personalities and situations, Lelouch isn't going to be like him.

Spoiler for Fate/Zero:
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