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Old 2012-10-07, 09:50   Link #21
Ringil
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This discussion reminds me a lot about discussions of translation/localization. The best kinds of translations have little parts different from the original, but they work to convey the same message/image of the original work (see like Walter Benjamin's The Task of a Translator). Similarly, I think a great adaptation can and probably should contain elements different from the original. Strict adherence often just ruins a product (see Clannad: After Story ending) and is in this sense not as good in the fidelity department.

In this way, Clannad's choice of an omnibus format was really especially good because it emphasized the bonds of friendship that improved the message of the show as opposed to the original where it was a focus only on a heroine. Nagisa being shown as a mother in Fuko's route really cemented some of themes of the show despite it being an original anime idea.
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Old 2013-04-06, 23:41   Link #22
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I think this is the easiest thread to bring it up in, since it's adaptation related. There's a trend I've noticed with a lot of light novel discussion around the forums. Namely, since not all LNs are translated (they require a lot of work, of course. The only thing more daunting is a visual novel.), the anime version, though this is decreasing lately, is compared to the manga version, which is itself also an adaptation that presumably had to go through the same filters of creative interpretation that any adaptation does, including the anime. Yet the anime is compared to the manga as though it were the original source, though the source was never a manga to begin with.

I know the reasons why this happens - manga are easier to scanslate, have a broader reach across the internet, etc. - but at the same time, these manga also-an-adaptations are treated with generally more respect than the TV version. Is it because the TV version introduces the uniquely TV concepts of fixed pacing, editing, voices that a manga version doesn't have? Just that, looking at it, it's like judging a film of a book not against the original literature, but against a novelization of that same film.

I rarely read the light novels myself, but it's an odd phenomenon that seems limited to the English speaking fanbase for reasons already listed above. Any thoughts on this?
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Old 2013-04-06, 23:48   Link #23
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I think, yes it's easier to like original anime than adaptations. It's already a given. In original anime, there's no comparisons that need to be made so people get to nitpick less.
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Old 2013-04-06, 23:49   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
I think this is the easiest thread to bring it up in, since it's adaptation related. There's a trend I've noticed with a lot of light novel discussion around the forums. Namely, since not all LNs are translated (they require a lot of work, of course. The only thing more daunting is a visual novel.), the anime version, though this is decreasing lately, is compared to the manga version, which is itself also an adaptation that presumably had to go through the same filters of creative interpretation that any adaptation does, including the anime. Yet the anime is compared to the manga as though it were the original source, though the source was never a manga to begin with.

I know the reasons why this happens - manga are easier to scanslate, have a broader reach across the internet, etc. - but at the same time, these manga also-an-adaptations are treated with generally more respect than the TV version. Is it because the TV version introduces the uniquely TV concepts of fixed pacing, editing, voices that a manga version doesn't have? Just that, looking at it, it's like judging a film of a book not against the original literature, but against a novelization of that same film.

I rarely read the light novels myself, but it's an odd phenomenon that seems limited to the English speaking fanbase for reasons already listed above. Any thoughts on this?
The plain and simple reason is that we can't read Japanese and resort to manga adaptations. Pretty much the only reason. I recall doing this OreShura since the LN wasn't translated but the manga was. The anime had done a bad job adapting a certain part but we still wanted to complain, so we used the manga instead.
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Old 2013-04-06, 23:56   Link #25
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I just think it's interesting that an adaptation is being compared to another adaptation, and wondering what makes one somehow senior to the other even though they can both be traced back to the same source. The same thing is being adapted into different mediums with different rules for what's effective, but it's curious how anime/TV is simultaneously at the top (everyone wants an adaptation) and bottom (compared against everything, even other adaptations) of the metaphorical ladder.
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Old 2013-04-07, 00:20   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
I think, yes it's easier to like original anime than adaptations. It's already a given. In original anime, there's no comparisons that need to be made so people get to nitpick less.
Basically this, although I do like if they do original things in comparisons in a good way.
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Old 2013-04-07, 00:30   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
I just think it's interesting that an adaptation is being compared to another adaptation, and wondering what makes one somehow senior to the other even though they can both be traced back to the same source. The same thing is being adapted into different mediums with different rules for what's effective, but it's curious how anime/TV is simultaneously at the top (everyone wants an adaptation) and bottom (compared against everything, even other adaptations) of the metaphorical ladder.
Anime is very similar to Hollywood movies in this regard.

Getting your favorite cartoon, super hero(es), book, video game, etc... on to the "big screen" is considered the pinnacle of success; a sure sign that what you love has been embraced by the mainstream (and/or is about to be). Naturally, it's cause for celebration!

Nonetheless, the Hollywood version of a non-Hollywood original is generally considered the least definitive version of a narrative (and its characters). Nothing short of a masterful adaptation/acting performance changes this (certain Lord of the Rings characters, Christopher Reeve Superman, Heath Ledger Joker, etc...).


LNs, VNs, manga to anime is much the same way, it seems to me.

"My favorite LN/VN/manga is getting an anime! Yeah! This means it's hot stuff, baby! ...But the anime won't be as good as the source material, of course. It (almost) never is."
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Old 2013-04-07, 01:40   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Nonetheless, the Hollywood version of a non-Hollywood original is generally considered the least definitive version of a narrative (and its characters). Nothing short of a masterful adaptation/acting performance changes this (certain Lord of the Rings characters, Christopher Reeve Superman, Heath Ledger Joker, etc...).


LNs, VNs, manga to anime is much the same way, it seems to me.

"My favorite LN/VN/manga is getting an anime! Yeah! This means it's hot stuff, baby! ...But the anime won't be as good as the source material, of course. It (almost) never is."
And in both cases, you have an audience of people who only watch the anime/film and are perfectly contented with that (or not, as the case may be), while an army of source material readers cry out "trust me; the book is better!"

In the end, I think it's most sensible to just think of these adaptations as re-imaginings or alternate interpretations. I find it interesting to think "oh, when this director/writer read this work, they saw it this way" or "this is the part they wanted to emphasize". To do that, though, you sort of have to let go of any image you have of what your own ideal adaptation would look like, but often it wasn't necessarily very realistic anyway given the typical constraints.
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Old 2013-04-07, 03:14   Link #29
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Personally, I think the question is the wrong question to begin with. I suspect the far more relevant question is whether it's easier to like anime that you don't already know the plot to.

The answer, for me, is yes.

For me, it's veeeeeeeeeeeeeery uncommon to find an anime in my top 10/20 where I had read the source material ahead of time. It's not that I can't enjoy something even while knowing everything that's going to occur, it's just that it can't compare to enjoying something where I'm kept in suspense the entire way.

There are certainly adaptations where I haven't read the source material, so they can find themselves among my favorite anime, hence my belief the question itself is wrong.

Now, a more relevant question pertaining to adaptations is whether or not it's easier to enjoy discussing adaptations or original anime on a forum. (The answer, for me, is original).
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Old 2013-04-07, 03:43   Link #30
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As someone who doesn't read manga, I find one of the biggest issues with non-original anime is the lack of completion. It's not at all uncommon for a manga to outlive the run of an anime. This was my issue with xxxHolic (which spurred my reading of the manga). In that respect, original anime tend to win out. It goes without saying that no matter how great an anime is, and how fun it is to watch, there's always a chance that it wont have an ending (I'm looking at you, Air Gear. A single tear rolls down my cheek, and I mean that).

Also, in terms of action at the least, original anime benefits from being suited for its medium. When you're dealing with manga -> anime, you're making images move. That doesn't always translate well. Especially in terms of action anime, this allows the studio freedom in determining the kind of movement a character does, the kind of actions they take, the animation of their skills. I give a lot of credit to Psycho-Pass because it had, in my opinion, some of the smoothest and most pleasing melee combat I've seen in years. While that's certainly possible for an adaptation, I feel like action in original anime tends to be more advanced; while in adaptations the action often seems straightforward, and really simplistic in what actions characters perform.

Hopefully that makes sense.
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Old 2013-04-07, 04:06   Link #31
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Random example:

I've never actually read the Yakitate Japan manga, but the anime ending feels oddly forced, like I can tell the story was supposed to go in another direction.

More detail in the spoiler:
Spoiler for Yakitate anime ending, and something about the manga:
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Old 2013-04-08, 16:24   Link #32
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I do think it is easier to like because there is no material for original anime but it all depends on the quality. Since it'll be harder to like an original anime if it was poor quality to begin with
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Old 2013-04-08, 17:03   Link #33
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For me adaptations and originals are the same if I'm not familiar with the source material.

In case of adaptions that I am familiar with, the order of experience matters a lot to me. Usually I prefer to see the movie, OVA or TV-series before reading the book, manga or game. For some reason the reverse has never worked for me.

Maybe it has to do with going from a relatively summarized animated version in to a more elaborate form in another medium which adds detail and background, while the reverse is constraining.
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Old 2013-04-08, 20:11   Link #34
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Death Note and Code Geass
one adaption and one original. Both were successful.


So I think it is at least possible for both categories to become a sucess.

However for adaptions there are limitations.
Light Novel & Story-Based Visual Novel adaptions suffer from compression.
"Dating Sim" Visual Novel adaptions (in most cases) suffer from only having one "route"
And long running Manga adaptions are only possible if it's a WSJ-Manga adaption (with exceptions like Fairy Tail though)

An adaption could be "god-like", but as long as most of the fans of the source material don't think of source and adaption as the same thing, the adaption is doomed to fail.

For anime originals it really depends on the anime itself, which makes it easier to determine its quality.
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Old 2013-04-08, 23:00   Link #35
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I tend to go backwards. If there's an anime series I really like, I sometimes go back to read the source material. This is most commonly done when an anime ends before the conclusion of the source material and curiousity gets me to read the rest.
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Old 2013-04-08, 23:23   Link #36
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I don't think that the problem is that people find it easier to enjoy original anime. While the impulse to compare an adaptation to its parent work does exist, viewers are likely to compare any to something seemingly similar anyways.

I think that the problem lies in that it can be harder to make an adaptation than an original work. While the latter has to worry about coming up with an original concept, a plot, characters, and so forth, I think that these can be lesser challenges than an adaptation faces. Adaptations have to worry about time constraints (or surpluses), the amount of material that needs to be covered, narration/monologues that don't flow properly with dialogue, and key scenes that don't translate very well to an animated medium. I think that it's often easier to make an unfaithful adaptation than a faithful one.

As illustrations of my points, look at Little Witch Academia as an original work, and Devil Survivor 2 for adapted anime. The former spends its time extremely well - every single scene, line of dialogue, and even most cuts are designed to add something of interest to the overall story. Everything works out because it was carefully designed for its runtime, with nary a wasted moment. Devil Survivor 2's opening episode is a very different story. Every single moment is still valuable here for conveying vital information to the viewer. However, instead of having room to work with material, it does so in a perfunctory manner - it feels like the main purpose of all that material is to cover the points in a checklist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Nonetheless, the Hollywood version of a non-Hollywood original is generally considered the least definitive version of a narrative (and its characters). Nothing short of a masterful adaptation/acting performance changes this (certain Lord of the Rings characters, Christopher Reeve Superman, Heath Ledger Joker, etc...).
I think that this is only true of the really famous parent works. Out of the 120-160 films made a year in Hollywood, about a third are adaptations. And most of these adaptations are basically unknown (or unread) by the public. Look at this year's Oscar nominees - how many people are going to remember the original works for Argo (the Master of Disguise), Lincoln (Team of Rivals) or Beasts of the Southern Wild (Juicy and Delicious)? Life of Pi and Les Miserables are famous enough that the parent work can be more memorable.

The same can be true of TV as well - how many people have read book versions of Band of Brothers or Generation Kill?

Quote:
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I tend to go backwards. If there's an anime series I really like, I sometimes go back to read the source material. This is most commonly done when an anime ends before the conclusion of the source material and curiousity gets me to read the rest.
Advertising is one of the prime reasons why so many anime adaptations are made. The Aku no Hana anime might never make any money, but its notoriety might push viewers to checking out the manga.
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Old 2013-04-09, 08:32   Link #37
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Indeed. The volume of Chihayafuru that was released after the anime began sold four times as many copies as the one before it.
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Old 2013-04-09, 13:01   Link #38
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Spoiler for light novel sample vs anime adaptation Fate/Zero:


I think some things in the light novel are harder to adapt so they skip it or merge it into thoughts or so... or flashbacks.

Original anime is easier to like as there is nothing to compare to (Anime remakes/reboots/OVAs/movies would have less complaints if movies were the only ones available)
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Old 2013-04-09, 22:29   Link #39
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To be honest, it's less about the anime being about an original work or not, as it is with that particular viewer having been familiar with the source material before watching the anime.

If the viewer has no experience at all with the source material, then its as good as an original anime to them. It's all about having preconceived notions about how the anime should look, or how its characters should act, or how its story progresses from the original source that I find is detracting a lot of enjoyment from the show.

This is because people naturally compare the two and they zero in the 'mistakes' the adaption has made in comparison to the original, while rarely do they praise what was improved upon. Ironically enough, if it's a 1:1 adaptation, those familiar with the source gets bored very quickly and the likelihood that they finish the adaptation drops dramatically.

And that's the reason why I have largely stopped reading scanslations or even playing visual novels. I also fall victim to this very phenomenon (first episodes of Yahari and Mushibugyou just to take an example), and so I try and limit myself to only the first few chapters when researching which anime to watch.

But I guess in the end, anime is pretty much just an over-glorified advertisement for its source material if it isn't based on anything. As long as you get people talking about the show (how good or bad doesn't really matter), the more people you get that would buy the source. And usually, those already familiar with the source don't really factor in to this increase in source sales, as they have already bought it, and so weirdly enough it doesn't really matter if they are happy or not with the adaptation.
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Old 2013-04-09, 22:57   Link #40
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I'm fairly tolerant of changes in adaptation, as long as it works.
I was fine with Magi all the way up until the Roach-Baba crap at the end.
That ruined everything the character stood for, and throws a lot of kinks in continuing the series for the 2nd season.

Basically changes that doesn't ruin the foundation of a series is fine with me.
Capturing the essence of a series is more important than accuracy of adapted events.
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