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Old 2012-10-06, 15:05   Link #1141
DonQuigleone
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I think comparing things to the 30s and FDR would be more appropriate.
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Old 2012-10-06, 19:28   Link #1142
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Obama and Democrats raise record funds, poll holds steady
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...89509B20121007
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Old 2012-10-07, 06:16   Link #1143
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
To be fair, functional competition would drive down to profit margins and improve the service provided to the consumer.
Economies of scale dominate the health insurance market. Even if competition would drive profits to zero, a competitive market would still provide an inferior product to a natural monopoly by a non-profit organization.
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Old 2012-10-07, 07:27   Link #1144
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Economies of scale dominate the health insurance market. Even if competition would drive profits to zero, a competitive market would still provide an inferior product to a natural monopoly by a non-profit organization.
Not necessarily. A monopoly has no reason to improve it's service.

Even in Europe, where there's universal Healthcare, there are still private alternatives if you're willing to shell out extra money. So there isn't a true monopoly. And I think it's better for it.

However, I still don't think doctors should be expected to act like businessmen. They have enough on their plates as it is.
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Old 2012-10-07, 08:17   Link #1145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Not necessarily. A monopoly has no reason to improve it's service.

Even in Europe, where there's universal Healthcare, there are still private alternatives if you're willing to shell out extra money. So there isn't a true monopoly. And I think it's better for it.

However, I still don't think doctors should be expected to act like businessmen. They have enough on their plates as it is.
Health insurance is not the same as health care, two completely different markets. There isn't much to compete on in terms of service in regard to insurance. Insurance firms in a competitive market waste revenues on both competitive efforts (advertising etc.) and profits. They also have a smaller insurance pool and have an incentive to reduce the amount of care covered and cherry pick customers. A monopolist would have to be extremely inefficient to do worse than market based insurance.

Private alternatives in Europe often involve niche products like cosmetic surgery, luxury dental plans, sports-care, fast track access for employees etc.

Market experiments in Switzerland and the Netherlands in terms of privatized health insurance have led to cost explosions without any significant improvements in terms of care provided.
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Old 2012-10-07, 10:35   Link #1146
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Health insurance is not the same as health care, two completely different markets. There isn't much to compete on in terms of service in regard to insurance. Insurance firms in a competitive market waste revenues on both competitive efforts (advertising etc.) and profits. They also have a smaller insurance pool and have an incentive to reduce the amount of care covered and cherry pick customers. A monopolist would have to be extremely inefficient to do worse than market based insurance.

Private alternatives in Europe often involve niche products like cosmetic surgery, luxury dental plans, sports-care, fast track access for employees etc.

Market experiments in Switzerland and the Netherlands in terms of privatized health insurance have led to cost explosions without any significant improvements in terms of care provided.
Not to mention the negative externalities associated with a two-tier system. Like.. wealthy people all joining private programs, which in turn lures in all the best doctors?

Apparently I've been told Singapore has an amazing healthcare system (which one of the SG natives can attest to) which is FIRMLY controlled by the state.
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Old 2012-10-07, 10:45   Link #1147
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Apparently I've been told Singapore has an amazing healthcare system (which one of the SG natives can attest to) which is FIRMLY controlled by the state.
What's the population of Singapore?
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Old 2012-10-07, 10:53   Link #1148
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What's the population of Singapore?
According to wikipedia? >5 million -- I get the implied point, they're smaller population wise and geographically, the logistics and bureaucracy is MUCH smaller. They are also a unitary state. I get it.

My insinuation, is you can keep medical costs under control, to an extent, by capping returns. They do it here in Canada. Yes, I'm a capitalist and I work in finance, but the income-elasticity of doctors already making >US$250K a year is pretty flat
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Old 2012-10-07, 12:36   Link #1149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
To be fair, functional competition would drive down to profit margins and improve the service provided to the consumer.

Of course, I've never really thought that health care is a product where competition really works so...
Competition and the usual economic models don't really work in healthcare. The big reason is over the nature of the product and the power of the consumer. The ultimate power of the consumer is in the power to say "no" to a purchase. Is the price too high for what you're getting? You can walk away, and if enough people walk away, the business is forced to lower the price or retool something that they're doing. Few people have that choice with healthcare, because the "product" in question is your body, livelihood, and/or life. How much are you willing to pay for that? They're priceless: many would pay everything that they owned (and then some). All of the power in the consumer-seller relationship is on the seller.

There are a lot of problems with our system, but a big one is that we rely on insurance for everything. Think about it: does your car insurance come into play whenever you have routine maintenance done on your vehicle? Do you utilize your homeowner's insurance whenever you renovate your house? No to both, and yet when you visit the doctor for a routine checkup or purchase some basic prescription drugs, your insurance comes into play. Why?

I don't know enough about the business side of medicine to say whether people choosing to self-pay and use their health insurance only for major incidences would lower costs all around (although I do know that doctor's offices hate having to go after uninsured people to get them to pay up). It's an interesting consideration all the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Health insurance is not the same as health care, two completely different markets.
They're different, but they both affect each other rather intricately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netto Azure View Post
Reading the post-debate commentary from some of my friends on the other side, I'm just thinking that they're just cheering that "Romney won" because they think he'll just flip back to "Conservative Mitt" if he wins the election. Seriously the only reason he "won" this debate was by outright asserting that he didn't say or even KNOW what he was saying just a few days prior. Complete 180 and renunciation of the Republican economic platform and acceptance of current Democratic orthodoxy isn't something I'd be cheering for substance wise.

What I took out from the debate was a cementing of my initial perception of Romney as the worst of possible politicians. Willing to abrogate his principles (47% tape) and outright lie just to gain political points and win office. And I thought John McCain was bad in 2008. u_u
I think few people listened to the debates for substance (which, to be fair, there wasn't really much) and most were watching it as if it were a football game. People on both sides just wanted to see their candidate get the upper hand. While I support Obama's policies, Romney was the clear "winner." Obama spoke slowly and paused frequently, and he didn't really pick apart anything that Romney was saying. His heaviest line of attack seemed to be bringing up a difference, explaining it loosely, and then remarking to the camera that "if you think Romney is right, then he's your candidate." The explanation insinuated that Romney's plans didn't add up, but Obama never came out and said it directly. That was a bit frustrating, because there were plenty of holes in Romney's statements and arguments, but Obama didn't shed light on them.

By comparison, Romney was very fluid, spoke passionately and never stumbled, and seemed to critique Obama's plans while promoting his own. He seemed much more energetic, informed, and passionate compared with Obama. His debate performance was really exceptional.

I actually found myself agreeing with Romney throughout much of the debate, which was puzzling to me. Others have pointed out the reason already: he flipped his stances. He's been espousing a strict conservative view leading up to the debates, but during the debate he made a hard shift toward the center. What is his true view, and what is he really going to do? I honestly couldn't tell you.

I'm looking forward to the next few debates either way.
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Old 2012-10-07, 12:43   Link #1150
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It does bring up a question: Did Romney move to the right to get the candidacy and then moved to his "true" position, or has he moved to the center to get elected? With McCain we did see a record of centralist positions, but with Romney, I don't quit see it.
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Old 2012-10-07, 13:15   Link #1151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It does bring up a question: Did Romney move to the right to get the candidacy and then moved to his "true" position, or has he moved to the center to get elected? With McCain we did see a record of centralist positions, but with Romney, I don't quit see it.
I think ... the answer is no one really knows. There doesn't seem to be a "Romney" in there - just an empty suit who goes with whatever seems to leave him wearing the Big Hat the longest.
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Old 2012-10-07, 13:17   Link #1152
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It's quite a contrast to his father, who at least had principles even if it led to his defeat.
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Old 2012-10-07, 15:03   Link #1153
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Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Here's a nice Video of Mittens debating Sir Romney.

But yeah, debate theater wise, President Obama needs to be more assertive and go through Romney's attacks line by line. Something like Bill Clinton did in the DNC.
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Old 2012-10-07, 16:17   Link #1154
ganbaru
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Robert Gibbs: Mitt Romney's Budget Math Is 'Absolutely Crazy'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1946214.html
Quote:
WASHINGTON -- Former White House spokesman Robert Gibbs on Sunday lit into Mitt Romney's recent debate performance, calling the Republican presidential nominee's claims "fundamentally dishonest" and "absolutely crazy."
"The underpinnings and foundations of that performance were fundamentally dishonest," Gibbs said on ABC's "This Week with George Stephanopoulos." "He walked away from the central tenet of his economic theory by saying he had no idea what the president was talking about. Ten minutes after the debate, even his own staff is walking back his answers on health care and preexisting conditions."
During the debate on Wednesday, Romney insisted that there is no tax break for corporations sending jobs offshore. In fact, there are several tax perks associated with offshoring. Moving costs can be explicitly deducted from a company's tax bill, and corporations do not have to pay tax on revenues earned overseas in tax havens until they bring the money back to the United States -- giving businesses an incentive to move work abroad and keep money offshore.
Romney's own campaign adviser, Eric Fehrnstrom, also quickly walked back Romney's debate claim that the former Massachusetts governor's health care proposal will guarantee affordable insurance for people with pre-existing conditions...
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Old 2012-10-07, 16:39   Link #1155
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netto Azure View Post
But yeah, debate theater wise, President Obama needs to be more assertive and go through Romney's attacks line by line. Something like Bill Clinton did in the DNC.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...James%2B%2BNye

Saturday Night Live was taking huge shots at Obama for losing the debate. They did also poke "Mittens" on his facts and reversal of position though but Obama pretty much "wasn't there" according to them.

And if I recall, SNL has always leaned pretty .. well, left isn't the right word, although there would be people that argue against me on that point .. they're less likely to put up with any B.S. of any sort.
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Old 2012-10-08, 02:45   Link #1156
flying ^
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NEW Pro 0bama PAC "attack" clip

... you gotta watch this



If you don't see something funny up here... you're being Too Serious
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Old 2012-10-08, 03:35   Link #1157
monir
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Some of these ads are ridiculously melodramatic, but unfortunately the target audience don't seem to mind as long as it is for his/her party's cause, Democrats and Republicans alike.

Btw, just caught up to Colbert Report and Daily Show from last week's edition. The way Colbert and Stewart were ripping into Obama was hilarious. It was especially hilarious when they played Mr. Potato Head's (ala Chris Mathews) take on the debate. That guy is so over the top that he is always a guaranteed source for entertainment. His message still stands that Obama blew it big time. Obama could have finished it all for Romney in that debate instead of giving the GOP party faithful a last chance at grasping at straws with that performance. Obama could have gone for the jagular. I forgot who brought this up when it was pointed out that the debate highlights Obama's biggest weakness: He is not an effective communicator when the occasion demands it. One of the biggest example given was how he handled the entire Obamacare debacle after it was passed.

He better not be missing his mark this time around because Chris Mathews will be keenly watching. We may also see an unleashed Biden this Thursday which is sure to be hell of an entertainment all in itself. Man... I love our elections.
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Old 2012-10-09, 15:18   Link #1158
flying ^
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What a turnaround!

Looks like the polling in swing states is just within margin of error... some are outright gains for Team Romney!

http://www.freep.com/article/2012100...gan-poll-shows
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/...o-and-colorado
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/1...-debate-period
http://www.gallup.com/poll/157907/ro...gn=syndication
http://www.people-press.org/2012/10/...s-obamas-lead/


.......


I remember posting something about voter enthusiasm gap like months ago...

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/nbcs-chuc...for-democrats/

In short, it's real and is (still) a real problme for Team 0bama.

Last edited by flying ^; 2012-10-09 at 15:30.
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Old 2012-10-09, 15:29   Link #1159
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What did I say? Performing poorly in the first debate always costs dearly for any candidate. Man, I am still pissed after Obama for not trying to get a KO early on and that's the result.

Perhaps my view about foreign policy is biased since I'm Canadian, but what did Romney mean yesterday that the US should have done more to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weaponry? Hijack ships transporting nuclear material to Iran although piracy is illegal? Launch a pre-emptive strike with 1,000 Tomahawks on Tehran? Invade Iran with the risk of angering Russia (which is Iran's Northern neighbor)? Until further notice, Iran hasn't detonated anything yet. Romney must have watched too much Battlefield 3 videos and the US just barely managed to unfuck themselves from the mess left in Irak.
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Old 2012-10-09, 16:10   Link #1160
Xacual
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
What did I say? Performing poorly in the first debate always costs dearly for any candidate. Man, I am still pissed after Obama for not trying to get a KO early on and that's the result.

Perhaps my view about foreign policy is biased since I'm Canadian, but what did Romney mean yesterday that the US should have done more to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weaponry? Hijack ships transporting nuclear material to Iran although piracy is illegal? Launch a pre-emptive strike with 1,000 Tomahawks on Tehran? Invade Iran with the risk of angering Russia (which is Iran's Northern neighbor)? Until further notice, Iran hasn't detonated anything yet. Romney must have watched too much Battlefield 3 videos and the US just barely managed to unfuck themselves from the mess left in Irak.
He's just preaching to the choir basically. A lot of GOP supporters tend to be ignorant of how foreign policy really works and do think it would be fine if the US basically nuked Iran out of existence.
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