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Old 2012-10-01, 16:04   Link #30781
Joeyscraggy
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That was good, i wish i could read it too, because the part with the guns is kind of weird. The only part i could understand was that Kinzo has different models, dating from late XIX century to 1940 i think. I don't know if that's a clue to something but, well. Also, that scene where Ange is contemplating different Kakeras was kind of sad...

Oh, and a related note, I'm starting to think the whole "Kin-chan" from the Ange TIP was canon, considering their relationship, but no to that extend xD
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Old 2012-10-01, 16:49   Link #30782
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Joeyscraggy View Post
That was good, i wish i could read it too, because the part with the guns is kind of weird. The only part i could understand was that Kinzo has different models, dating from late XIX century to 1940 i think. I don't know if that's a clue to something but, well. Also, that scene where Ange is contemplating different Kakeras was kind of sad...

Oh, and a related note, I'm starting to think the whole "Kin-chan" from the Ange TIP was canon, considering their relationship, but no to that extend xD
I think it could also be relevant how some rifles were rather short and there's the whole talk about the bullets... I guess it has to have a meaning.
Maybe it explained why the wounds had to be so horrible to cover up the damage done by the guns?
Face destroyed, stomach cut open... It it was just a single bullet, considering Nanjo is an accomplice, the wound could be covered up more easily but maybe if the gun shoots more bullets at once it's not so easy to hide that many gun wounds so Beato had to use... extreme means...

The good part of EP 8 manga version is it's, as far as I'm involved, a lot more emotionally involving than the novel, at least as of now and focus more on the things I wanted to know and that the novel didn't bother to tell me.
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Old 2012-10-08, 02:09   Link #30783
Kiltias
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I think I might have found something in regards to EP 3.

Something I noticed is that this has quite the focus on Chess.

Eva-Beatrice calls herself the King.
Rudolf pinned the Rook and the King.
"Checkmate".
"Moving the King to the Center."

Here's something interesting:
There are only 3 pieces in Chess that can pin.
The Rooks,The Queen and the Bishops.

Here's the deal:
Bishops are also called "Shooters" or "Archers" as well "Hunters" depending on language.

Personally I think its safe to say that Rudolf and Kyrie are the Bishops/Shooters.

However that is where the problem lies.Its impossible to checkmate the King with only 2 Bishops.

In order to checkmate the King with 2 Bishops you NEED a 3rd Piece.
Or in this case a 3rd Person.

But also its impossible for Rooks even then, its more probable they are the Bishops.

And the queen is only singular.


So if Kyrie and Rudolf are the Bishops, its impossible for them to even think they have checkmated the King.

And no it obviously isn't just a joke considering there seems to be a theme of chess involved as well.

At any case, unless a 3rd person helped them, its impossible to assume having checkmated the King.

What I'm saying is that Hideyoshi must have done something as well as he was the 3rd Person along with them.
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Old 2012-10-08, 04:10   Link #30784
AuraTwilight
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*claps* Very well done. I'd also like to throw in that the Siestas are quite obviously intended to be Bishops, since they are literally Shooters, Archers, and Hunters.
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Old 2012-10-08, 05:37   Link #30785
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
*claps* Very well done. I'd also like to throw in that the Siestas are quite obviously intended to be Bishops, since they are literally Shooters, Archers, and Hunters.
It's also interesting to see how other Chess pieces fit in.

In Medieval times the doctor is always the pawn of the queen.

Pawns often are given the meaning of being easily manipulated or the ones being sacrificed for a larger purpose as well as indicating unimportance and disposability.

But not only that:
Rooks are thought to be charges but also towers.
In Heraldry, French Blazon Charges are referred as Furniture.
This is a bit more difficult IMO as I see the Servants and Nanjo as the pawns, Shannon fits to the Rook but she might as well have undergone Promotion (As in reaching rank 8 on the chessboard.The opposites side) to become a Rook.
Personally I rather go with being a pawn.

Same goes for Kanon in EP 2 trying to protect Jessica.His behaviour was marvelously fitting to that of the Knight.Same as with Shannon though.Might have been a promotion.

As for the King, IMO it's Maria but thats solely based upon her hairband.
Spoiler for Maria - King:

Granted pieces appearance vary but the general look of a king is with a cross at the top.
Would be interesting if Maria is the King.Would mean that Eva couldn't have killed her as its against the rules that Kings move next to another unless Eva-Beatrice isn't actually Eva herself.Instead thats why Maria was killed by Beato.


At any case: Rooks = Furniture might be of high importance as they are very powerful in delivering checkmate and grow even stronger towards the end.

Piece value might also be worth looking into.
The pawn have the very lowest value but are the life of Chess due to their potential. - 1
Knights and Bishops both have a value of 3 but in general Bishops have the higher value.
The comes the rook with 5.
Lastly the Queen with 9.
Realize something?
9 + 5 + 3 + 1 = 18

While its still unfinished:
Spoiler for Umineko Board:


Couldn't find nice Stake images.=/
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Old 2012-10-08, 08:08   Link #30786
AuraTwilight
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You are fucking awesome. That's all I have to contribute right now.
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Old 2012-10-08, 20:38   Link #30787
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Going off of what you said about Shkanon being "promoted" pieces, that kind of implies that Yasu herself is a pawn, and that Shkanon are higher ranking pieces. So like, winning the love duel represents one of the pawns reaching that back rank.

Also going off promotions, at first I didn't like your designation of EVA as king, but when I was going to type up my thoughts, I realized how brilliant it was. Eva's diary is, from what we're told, is the one and final truth. Unlocking that diary is the final goal, and the mystery of EVA and the diary is the final mystery of Umineko. Or, that's one way of interpreting the events of EP8.

On a completely unrelated note, earlier this summer I devised a way to play Umineko Chess la EP5, to include placing random fairy pieces and scribbling on the board. It's not meant to be taken seriously.
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Old 2012-10-08, 21:56   Link #30788
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I pointed some of Kiltias's points years ago.

The Virgilia vs. Beatrice fight is similar to the game of Maharajah, with Virgilia as the Maharajah.

Eva -> Evatrice is clearly a pawn promoting.

The Siestas are also compared to bishops in Episode 4, with the comment about the Siestas and a mention of how bishops only attack one color.

When Battler meets Beatrice at the end of Episode 4, he compares himself to the white king, and states that there's still one white square on the board: under his feet. It's impossible for the white king to play an entire game on white squares; he starts on a black square.
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Old 2012-10-09, 07:13   Link #30789
Cao Ni Ma
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Yeah, I also noticed the chess similarities. Like during the dining scenes people sit in a weird order based on the persons family ranking. This has the side effect of having Battler, the white king face Maria, the black king. Similar to an actual set chess board. The problem is that each side of the table will be missing their rooks. Your idea of seeing the rooks as furniture would explain why they arent by their sides eating.

Another thing is, Battler has a silver (white) cross on his tie and on his top. So there are plenty of symbolism's for him to be the white king.
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Old 2012-10-09, 07:29   Link #30790
Wanderer
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Next installment.

It's not the final one as I predicted before. I wanted to go back and translate some of the "omitted" part that I have a source for (regarding Beatrice convincing Krauss and Natsuhi that the bomb is real); however, upon looking into it it was longer than I expected, so I'm postponing it for now. Also, what follows after the end of the story here is what we previously thought was the "intro" and "Dlanor's forward" (they're actually the epilogue; the cause for this confusion was that LyricalAura's original source had the relevant pages in the wrong order). I'll be doing some work with that, too.

However, this release is probably where the meat of the story is. Enjoy.

Spoiler for Discovering the crime scenes & the 4th Twilight.:

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-10-09 at 08:24.
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Old 2012-10-09, 08:23   Link #30791
Renall
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
However that is where the problem lies.Its impossible to checkmate the King with only 2 Bishops.

In order to checkmate the King with 2 Bishops you NEED a 3rd Piece.
Or in this case a 3rd Person.

But also its impossible for Rooks even then, its more probable they are the Bishops.

And the queen is only singular.
Are you counting the King here or not? Because if you are, I hate to burst your bubble, but it is entirely possible to achieve checkmate with King + 2 Opposite-Color Bishops, King + 1 Rook, and King + 1 Queen. In fact, these are the most common types of checkmate. The only unwinnable setups due to lack of material are a lone King, King + 1 Bishop (or any number of same-color Bishops), and King + 1 Knight. King + 2 Knights can't force a checkmate but can achieve it.

Now if you don't mean the King is present, then it shouldn't be possible, although this also makes the joke less interesting because one generally assumes the King needs to be in position for a checkmate and most wouldn't assume otherwise. But then that metaphor brings with it the implication that if the King (Battler?) were present, checkmate would be achieved, as there would exist "sufficient material" to trap the opposing King. Who would also have to be present, so...
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Old 2012-10-09, 12:37   Link #30792
Kiltias
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Are you counting the King here or not?
Nope.

And I got something else if I may.....
Am I reading too much into this?
1 and 2 - When spotting Leviathan and Belphegor
3 - Shooting at Belphegor
4 - Same
5 - Kyrie shooting at Leviathan
6 - Kyrie killing Leviathan
7 - Rudolf killing Belphegor
8 - Kyrie/Rudolf shooting at Eva.

Amount of shots fired during their fight against the stakes.
Isn't that the same amount of shots that killed everyone in EP7?

As in:
The Illusion of them vs the stakes = them shooting everyone.
Kyrie and Rudolf killed by the Siestas = Eva killing them.


Last thing cause I don't wanna annoy people.
Scorpion charm.
Protected Natsuhi in EP1.
Of course I can't read through the entire thread so scuse me if it already was mentioned.

Could it have been that Natsuhi was intended to die in the first twilight?
Still don't get if there were 5 or 6.

Here's the deal though, I don't think Yasu gave a single fuck about the charm much rather where it came from.
Its no protection against magic but sparing Natsuhi protected Marias believe in magic as killing her despite the charm would probably have upset her.

Just a thought.
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Old 2012-10-09, 13:05   Link #30793
Drifloon
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The part with Shannon and Beatrice still seems weird to me. The main episodes all portray Shannon and Kanon as rebelling against Beatrice, which suggested that there was still some part of Yasu that didn't want to follow Beato's plan. But the way this is written suggests that all the personalities were okay with it, implying that all parts of Yasu were completely resolved to carry out the ceremony. It's a strange inconsistency.

Edit: Actually...come to think of it, Shannon and Kanon are only shown rebelling when Beato tries to kill George and/or Jessica, right? Maybe if Beatrice never tries to kill either of those two, then she never experiences that internal struggle between her personalities.

Edit2: Actually, never mind, I forgot about the scene with Kanon in EP1. Which is particularly weird since he says that he resolved to rebel if Beatrice killed Shannon and left him alive. How strange.

Last edited by Drifloon; 2012-10-09 at 13:24.
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Old 2012-10-09, 13:08   Link #30794
GabrieliosP
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According to a R07 interview, Yasu went inside Natsuhi's room, saw the charm and then went back painting the door to make it look like Beatrice tried to go there but couldn't enter.

So yeah, Natsuhi was intended for EP1 first twilight and Yasu spared her because of the scorpion charm.
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Old 2012-10-09, 14:41   Link #30795
rogerpepitone
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Is it mentioned whether Natsuhi's door opens into the hall or into the room?

In Episode 1, Natsuhi doesn't notice that her door's been vandalized until she leaves. That would make perfect sense if it opens into the hall, but is very odd if it opens into her room.

In Episode 2, Gohda is mentioned as throwing his weight against the door to Natsuhi's room to keep it shut. This makes sense if the door opens into the room, but not at all if it opens into the hall. (This is a fantasy scene, though.)

It's easy for Beatrice to notice the scorpion charm on the doorknob if the door opens into the hall, but extremely difficult if it opens into the room.
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Old 2012-10-09, 14:56   Link #30796
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
According to a R07 interview, Yasu went inside Natsuhi's room, saw the charm and then went back painting the door to make it look like Beatrice tried to go there but couldn't enter.

So yeah, Natsuhi was intended for EP1 first twilight and Yasu spared her because of the scorpion charm.
Isn't that interesting....

If she wouldn't have held it we'd have the beginning of a pattern.

Natsuhi,Krauss,Kyrie,Rudolf - the people at the side of Battlers dinner table side.
Battler held the charm protecting him.
Jessica was believed to hold one as well.

I always thought the 1st Twilight is weird.Seems too random IMO.
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Old 2012-10-09, 15:02   Link #30797
GabrieliosP
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Is it mentioned whether Natsuhi's door opens into the hall or into the room?

In Episode 1, Natsuhi doesn't notice that her door's been vandalized until she leaves. That would make perfect sense if it opens into the hall, but is very odd if it opens into her room.

In Episode 2, Gohda is mentioned as throwing his weight against the door to Natsuhi's room to keep it shut. This makes sense if the door opens into the room, but not at all if it opens into the hall. (This is a fantasy scene, though.)

It's easy for Beatrice to notice the scorpion charm on the doorknob if the door opens into the hall, but extremely difficult if it opens into the room.
Interesting. This can mean two things:

- Consistency error. Sometimes author can't keep little details relevant to the plot the same across a story.

- It's a hint that Yasu & Gohda were fooling George in that scene.

Give me a second while I rewatch both scenes in the anime to see if they have the same controversy.

EDIT: Anime episode 2 (aka EP1): door opens to the outside.
Anime episode 10 (aka EP2): Door opens to the inside.
I'm betting on consistency error.
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Old 2012-10-09, 15:47   Link #30798
Renall
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Is it mentioned whether Natsuhi's door opens into the hall or into the room?

...

It's easy for Beatrice to notice the scorpion charm on the doorknob if the door opens into the hall, but extremely difficult if it opens into the room.
The bedrooms in the house have chain locks, or at least some of them do. It's reasonable to assume all the doorframes are the same for most bedrooms, and thus that the doors all open the same way.

A chain lock does not work on a door that opens outward into the hallway. The chain would either not function or could easily be unlocked by reaching in and slowly closing the door until the chain can be moved. Or just ripping the door open enough to tear the chain support off the doorframe.

Basically, all the doors in the mansion have to open inward. There's no way Beatrice would've noticed the scorpion charm if she wasn't specifically looking for it.
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Old 2012-10-09, 15:53   Link #30799
GabrieliosP
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It's really strange. For reference sake, here's the part of the interview that says about the door:

K = KEIYA (interviewer)
R = Ryuukishi07

Quote:
K: When I return to past Episodes now, there are many scenes that raise my interest. For example the scorpion charm in EP1.

R: Ah, the good old times.

K: It really seems like there was an enactment on the gameboard that Natsuhi’s room could not be entered because of the scorpion charm.

R: Of course, if we assume that the culprit entered the room once. The culprit entered the room with the intent to kill Natsuhi, but looking at the door found the scorpion charm dangling from the knob. And when remembering that the rule was created that “rooms guarded by the symbol of the scorpion cannot be entered by witches”, left the room unable to murder her. And then, as a sign that somebody tried but was unable to enter, left the marks with paint on the door as if someone scratched at it.

K: Is that the truth behind that scene?

R: And when I asked you about the person who knew about that rule concerning the charm and could commit the crime…

K: There is only one, isn’t there?! I was doubting that there was a chance she overheard how Natsuhi accepted the charm on the corridor, but I never thought about the fact that she could just go into the room.

R: But she has a master key, didn’t she? And with that another person, outside those who were planned, had to be killed.

K: You can also think of it as being connected to the camouflage murders. To have even just one person less killed is impossible.

R: The real culprit created so many rules, also in connection to the murders. And there were many rules which were selfmade and also restricting.
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Old 2012-10-09, 16:35   Link #30800
Cao Ni Ma
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Well, assume that Beatrice was really going to kill Natsuhi right there. Would she just leave the door open or will she lock it behind her? It would be pretty easy to spot something in that situation.

What makes me wonder is the idea of having the victims in on the show. If she really intended to kill Natsuhi that night, she saw the talisman and said "Welp, change of plan. Hey Nats you know that thing about going to the shack and playing dead? Well you aint gonna be part of it. Here's how things are going to roll now."
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