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Old 2012-10-09, 19:45   Link #21
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It's because you've exchanged "melodrama" for "drama" in your mind.
No, I haven't. "Melodrama" pretty consistently carries a negative connotation. In recent years, the term "melodrama" is stated as a criticism of a show 90% or more of the time that it's used.

Like it or not, the term "Melodrama" is now widely and overwhelmingly used as a form of criticism. Like it or not, that critical meaning is now what the term "Melodrama" tends to mean in actual use; it's the first thing most people think of when they hear the word "Melodrama".

Totoum is right - Trying to change this at this point is a lost cause.


But sadly, this thread also makes it clear to me that the goal I put forward in the OP is probably also a lost cause (which is why I'm not going to debate you on Accel World even though I disagree with you on it; it would probably be a vain debate at this point).


Well, unless totoum's "Healing Drama" takes off. That's a term I could probably get behind. At least it would differentiate shows like Hyouka and Tari Tari from the darker dramas out there.
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Old 2012-10-09, 19:48   Link #22
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Instead of Melodrama I'd just call it what it is: Soap Opera.
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Old 2012-10-09, 20:27   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But sadly, this thread also makes it clear to me that the goal I put forward in the OP is probably also a lost cause (which is why I'm not going to debate you on Accel World even though I disagree with you on it; it would probably be a vain debate at this point).
The problem appears to be that you want people to just keep on coming up with random word combinations until we find something that you deem acceptable to define a genre that already has valid definitions because you, Triple_R, have decided that the existing definitions just aren't good enough. There's nothing wrong with calling it a "coming-of-age drama"; that's a valid film school term for it. But you've decided that people are likely to misuse it, so therefore it's not good enough. But that hasn't stopped them from apparently misusing every other valid term so far (drama, melodrama, slice-of-life), so how is creating a new term going to help? People will apparently just misuse those too and, rather than combating the wrong usage, your attitude is "it's a lost cause".

So yes, based on your rules, it's pointless.
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Old 2012-10-09, 21:47   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
3) The show has some drama, but also some more lowkey episodes.
I think that you've already got it right here. "Lowkey drama" is a pretty comprehensive term that adequately describes these shows with little room for error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
While I can understand people objecting to it being called "Slice of Life", I also can't help but think 'When's the last time we had a show that fit the classic, most purist definition of "Slice of Life" anyway?' That Aria-esque "It's all about the setting!" show... honestly, it's been a long time since I've seen one. If the classic Slice of Life type of show is fading into obscurity, may there be some value in using "Slice of Life" as the term for this new genre of shows that bears some similarities to classic Slice of Life?
I don't really think that Slice of Life is a real genre, but Moyashimon Returns does a good job of filling that niche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, I haven't. "Melodrama" pretty consistently carries a negative connotation. In recent years, the term "melodrama" is stated as a criticism of a show 90% or more of the time that it's used.

Like it or not, the term "Melodrama" is now widely and overwhelmingly used as a form of criticism. Like it or not, that critical meaning is now what the term "Melodrama" tends to mean in actual use; it's the first thing most people think of when they hear the word "Melodrama".
Maybe, but you don't have to let it be used purely as a negative term. There's lots of other terms that are misused, like "mediocre" or "decimate", but there's no reason to stop using them altogether.

A show like Oniisama E is as pure melodrama as you're likely to find, and it's still a perfectly good show.
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Old 2012-10-09, 23:28   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
until we find something that you deem acceptable to define a genre that already has valid definitions because you, Triple_R, have decided that the existing definitions just aren't good enough.

In the history of animesuki nobody has ever created a thread asking for "melodrama" in the suggestion section.

People in the anime fandom just don't go asking "So,what good melodrama has aired lately",I really wish they did though.That's where Triple_R is coming from.

Thad being said I'd like to get back to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
People who like serious drama, and are looking first and foremost for serious drama, may well find that a show like Tari Tari is not dramatic enough for them. Labeling shows like Hyouka and Tari Tari as "dramas" may well do a disservice both to these shows, and people who specifically go out of their way to find dramas.
I've just now stated asking myself this,"drama" has always been a very broad term and continues to be one in other mediums besides anime today,so why should anime be any different?As an example here's the list of golden globe nominees for drama you'll see that the amount of "drama" in them varies greatly.
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Old 2012-10-10, 04:06   Link #26
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Personally, I think a big part of the problem is that we're applying western genre classifications to Japanese shows. The two don't fit. Anime has distinctive genres. In fact, for most shows it would be possible to describe a show as being overwhelmingly one genre. But because we're stuck with using western terms, everything ends up with multiple genres.

As an example, I would use the following genres to classify Japanese shows:
1. Super Robot
2. Real Robot (Mecha shows are a distinct genre, they have conventions that go beyond the presence of giant humanoid robots. There are two varieties, Real and Super)
3. Shonen Action
4. Shonen Sports
5. Shonen Romance
6. Harems
7. Visual Novel
8. Seinen Action
9. Ruthless Game (think Kaiji, Battle Royale, Death Note)
10. Seinen Romance
11. Salaryman
12. Shojo Romance
13. Yuri/Shojo ai
14. Yaoi/shonen ai
15. Magical Girl
16. Mystery
17. Epic Sci-Fi/Space Opera (think LoGH, Banner of the Stars, Yamato)
18. Healing Anime
19. Slice of Life Anime.

I could go on, but I don't want this post getting larger. Some genres could realistically be considered subgenres of others. For instance Harem and Visual novel are subgenres of Shonen/seinen romance (which could also be possibly merged for similarity).
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Old 2012-10-10, 06:47   Link #27
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Uo

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
The problem appears to be that you want people to just keep on coming up with random word combinations until we find something that you deem acceptable to define a genre that already has valid definitions...
No, it doesn't. That's the problem.

Many people use "Slice of Life" to define this genre, and some people object to that. My impression is that you agree with those who object to that.

Some people argue that "Drama" and/or "Coming of Age" should be the terms used for this genre, but there's issues with those ideas as well (especially once we get into your Melodrama/Drama genre separation suggestion, for very good reasons that totoum has already pointed out). Besides, most people don't think of "Coming of Age" as an actual genre, but simply as a narrative element (and there's a very good reason for that, which I alluded to you before).


Quote:
because you, Triple_R, have decided that the existing definitions just aren't good enough.
I haven't decided that. The anime fandom in general has decided that. If the anime fandom were all cool with "Slice of Life", or if they were all cool with "Drama", we wouldn't have this no man's land situation with some shows.

And the anime fandom (and society in general, for that matter) has also decided that "melodrama" is a term that is used overwhelmingly as a narrative criticism. That's what I see every day on anime message boards throughout the internet, and on the anime blogosphere.

If a solid majority of people use a word a certain way, it doesn't matter much if the current Dictionary agrees with them or not. In time, the Dictionary definition will change to reflect the way the word is now most often used, not the other way around.

And speaking personally, I'm fine with "Melodrama" being used as a form of narrative criticism. The word works perfectly well that way.


Quote:
There's nothing wrong with calling it a "coming-of-age drama"
There's plenty of problems with calling it a "coming of age drama" for reasons that I've already laid out repeatedly on this thread.

Now, I can see where this term might be useful for the study of cinema, so I can see where it might work as a film school term. But again, genre labeling is all about enabling people to find more shows that they're likely to enjoy, which is a bit of a different endeavor than educational analysis for its own sake.

And just based on the sorts of shows that I've seen the term "Slice of Life" applied to, I feel very confident that "Coming of Age Drama" will be similarly misused making it of dubious use as a genre label. The fact is that the main character of Accel World goes through as comprehensive a Coming of Age story as anybody in Tari Tari or Kokoro Connect does (and his coming of age story is more comprehensive than most of the characters in those two shows). Because of that, some people likely would apply "Coming of Age Drama" to Accel World. And to various Gundam shows. And to Gurren Lagann (even on this thread, Kirarakim has already indicated agreement with the idea that Gurren Lagann is a Coming of Age show). Eventually, "Coming of Age Drama" will become so broad that its usefulness as a genre label will be diminished.

It's simply not the best term to use here, imo.


Quote:
But you've decided that people are likely to misuse it, so therefore it's not good enough. But that hasn't stopped them from apparently misusing every other valid term so far (drama, melodrama, slice-of-life), so how is creating a new term going to help?
But some terms tend to be properly used. Terms like "Comedy", "Romance", and "Sci-Fi". That's partly why I think that our approach to genre labeling should reflect what makes those genre labels work so effectively.


Quote:
People will apparently just misuse those too and, rather than combating the wrong usage, your attitude is "it's a lost cause".
Words evolve over time, and some times there's a period where dictionary definitions simply haven't caught up yet. That doesn't mean that people are using the word wrong, it means that the word's definition is changing.

And actually, when it comes to melodrama, I'm pretty sure that the "narrative criticism" meaning of the term is part of the term's official definition now. I've also read definitions for "Melodrama" that don't indicate that it's a genre label.

Honestly, you're the very first person I've ever heard/read use "Melodrama" as a genre label.
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Old 2012-10-10, 07:21   Link #28
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I also come across a problem at trying to fit Tari Tari into a genre. What is it exactly? It started out as slice of life...ish, then it delves into drama, and lots of it. However, the overall "feel" of the anime is closer to slice of life than drama. The "drama" is more like side stories that develop each character, but it's more plot-heavy than those of other slice of life anime.

Another anime that I found to have this ambiguity is Manabi Straight. There is a central plot. It makes me cry like a wimp. Yet the episodes feel episodic. The plot is there and it's strong, but unlike typical romcom where plot gets shoved down your throat in the last 3 episodes, Manabi Straight manages to spread it out, showing more aspects of daily school life. So I end up having to classify it as a slice of life...drama. Is there such a thing? Nah.

Lastly, I have to talk about Toradora. It's pretty obvious that roughly the first third/half of the show is slice of life, and the "romance" is presented in an "it won't get resolved any time soon so it's there just for kicks". Then suddenly it drops the plot bomb, about twice later on. So what, this is another slice of life + drama? I realize that this isn't the "lowkey drama" type like the two I mentioned above, since Toradora does a complete genre change in the middle, going from pretty much one extreme to another. But hey, why not mention it too?
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Old 2012-10-10, 07:27   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I also come across a problem at trying to fit Tari Tari into a genre. What is it exactly? It started out as slice of life...ish, then it delves into drama, and lots of it. However, the overall "feel" of the anime is closer to slice of life than drama. The "drama" is more like side stories that develop each character, but it's more plot-heavy than those of other slice of life anime.

Another anime that I found to have this ambiguity is Manabi Straight. There is a central plot. It makes me cry like a wimp. Yet the episodes feel episodic. The plot is there and it's strong, but unlike typical romcom where plot gets shoved down your throat in the last 3 episodes, Manabi Straight manages to spread it out, showing more aspects of daily school life. So I end up having to classify it as a slice of life...drama. Is there such a thing? Nah.

Lastly, I have to talk about Toradora. It's pretty obvious that roughly the first third/half of the show is slice of life, and the "romance" is presented in an "it won't get resolved any time soon so it's there just for kicks". Then suddenly it drops the plot bomb, about twice later on. So what, this is another slice of life + drama? I realize that this isn't the "lowkey drama" type like the two I mentioned above, since Toradora does a complete genre change in the middle, going from pretty much one extreme to another. But hey, why not mention it too?
Stories having multiple genres (which sometimes is caused by genre shifting) is not uncommon.

You can still distinguish what genre that "part" of the story has. So to categorize it you maybe have to look at it as a whole to determine which genre is the most important or the most prominent one than the other sub genres.
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Old 2012-10-10, 07:38   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I also come across a problem at trying to fit Tari Tari into a genre. What is it exactly? It started out as slice of life...ish, then it delves into drama, and lots of it. However, the overall "feel" of the anime is closer to slice of life than drama. The "drama" is more like side stories that develop each character, but it's more plot-heavy than those of other slice of life anime.
Agreed.

This is why I can't help but think that the approach taken by the Slice of Life purists might be causing more harm than good.

Classic Aria-esque Slice of Life is exceptionally rare in today's anime world. You don't see it very often any more. So I'm not sure what exactly is being helped or preserved by holding to the strictest definition of Slice of Life when the types of shows that would fit that definition are very rarely made any more.

And a show like Tari Tari definitely has a Slice of Life "feel" to it, even if it doesn't meet the strictest definition of the term Slice of Life.

Instead of "correcting" people when they call shows like Hanasaku Iroha, Hyouka, and Tari Tari "Slice of Life", maybe we should just allow this term evolution to take its natural course?

Personally, I think that would be a better course than overusing terms like "Coming of Age" and "Drama".


Genre labels are there to serve the fans, the fans aren't there to serve the genre labels...
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Old 2012-10-10, 07:40   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Honestly, you're the very first person I've ever heard/read use "Melodrama" as a genre label.
Reckoner and Sackett as well a Hyl have used it a genre label.

I'm fine with arguing that too many people misuse the word but let's not get hyperbolic either
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Old 2012-10-10, 07:53   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Reckoner and Sackett as well a Hyl have used it a genre label.

I'm fine with arguing that too many people misuse the word but let's not get hyperbolic either

People are not misusing the term "melodrama" when they use it as a form of narrative criticism, totoum. "Overdramatic emotion and behavior" is in fact one of the dictionary definitions of "melodrama".

It's a perfectly legitimate use of the term, but it does mean the term carries a negative connotation that makes it a poor term to use for a genre label.


Also, just because I spend a lot of time on Anime Suki doesn't mean I read every post here. Relentlessflame really is the first person that I have ever heard or read use melodrama as a genre label. Apparently, I missed those posts by Reckoner and Sackett (as for hyl's post, he used "melodramatic titles" which doesn't necessarily mean he's using melodrama as a genre; "melodramatic" might be a simple descriptor here, like "cheesy" or "campy").
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Old 2012-10-10, 09:09   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
People are not misusing the term "melodrama" when they use it as a form of narrative criticism, totoum. "Overdramatic emotion and behavior" is in fact one of the dictionary definitions of "melodrama".

It's a perfectly legitimate use of the term, but it does mean the term carries a negative connotation that makes it a poor term to use for a genre label.
Point taken.Should have said "ignore one definition" instead.

Now this is more trivial than a real proposition,french language has the same issue with "mélodrame",it can be a genre and narrative criticism,what's happened is that you'll see people use the abbreviation "mélo" to just refer to the genre (at least with live action,don't hang around enough in french anime community to know if that's the case there too)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
Classic Aria-esque Slice of Life is exceptionally rare in today's anime world. You don't see it very often any more.
I'd say that it's always been very rare,that's nothing new.Though I guess that doesn't change much of your argument.

Still labeling shows like Tari Tari as SoL has a similar problem to the one you have with labeling it a drama.
People also label things like Lucky Star as SoL so just like you argue some people would be misled by labeling Tari Tari as drama because they'd expected more drama you could say some people would be misled by Tari Tari being labeled SoL because they'd expect more comedy
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Old 2012-10-10, 09:23   Link #34
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Well, to be fair, there have been some interesting compromise ideas of sorts offered up, like your "Healing Drama" and 4Tran's "Lowkey Drama".

I think either of these terms would work well, but the trick is getting it to catch on.
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Old 2012-10-10, 09:57   Link #35
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^Low-key is a description not a name, so I'm unclear why you like it...but if that floats your boat then how about "Mellow Drama". .
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Old 2012-10-10, 10:01   Link #36
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Low-key is a description not a name, so I'm unclear why you like it...but if that floats your boat then how about "Mellow Drama". .
I have to admit, that's a good one!
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Old 2012-10-10, 16:56   Link #37
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lol "mellow drama" sounds actually...pretty good. 0.o

And I agree about the Lucky Star thing. Putting aside the people who think LS isn't a SoL because it has "comedy" (whatever), you can say Lucky Star is significantly different from Tari Tari. Even Lucky Star itself is significantly different from Aria. So you have SoL meaning a whole spectrum of things, under the broad definition.
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Old 2012-10-10, 19:59   Link #38
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LOL Mellow Drama...you just might be onto something

Not to mention I love how it sounds like Melodrama but it's in fact the complete opposite.
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Old 2012-10-10, 20:14   Link #39
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Hyouka >>> Slice of Life; Highschool Mystery

Tari Tari >>> Slice of Life; Highschool Musical

Kokoro Connect >>> Highschool Fantasy/Supernatural...

...I think anything with supernatural/mecha/action should never be label as Slice of life..
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Old 2012-10-11, 01:25   Link #40
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Well, to be honest I never classified Kokoro Connect as SoL because it doesn't have that slice of life "feel". Being a school anime doesn't automatically make something SoL. And it actually has quite a lot of melodrama too, so I never really felt "relaxed" when I'm watching it.

(I'm not disagreeing with anyone, just making a random comment.)
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