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Old 2012-10-09, 07:32   Link #9381
Xiammes
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Quote:
Aqua Coral was just a reused name for some reason, possibly due to Imai forgetting he'd already used it.
Highly doubtful, this is Imai we are talking about, he wrote a


Quote:
Hatfield's fragment is officially Rainmaker; he has the ability to actually manipulate the properties of water, making them become like spears or razors or weighty objects,
Quote:
whereas Nanami just literally controlled waters motion and speed.
Spoiler for picture:


Creates and controls water at will, Hattfield had a lot more control over his water, but they both have the same fragment, just the level expertise varied. Hattfield said that he comes from a family of Rain Dancers in America, he uses that to summon his rain.



Quote:
the "Aqua Coral" Hatfield uses specifically refers only to his defensive spiral technique
Remember Hattfield is one of Simeon's elite, they never directly reveal ones fragment, and will make you believe its something else. He wouldn't have the power to summon rain and control water at will, because we already know the ability to manipulate water is called Aqua Coral.
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Old 2012-10-09, 10:40   Link #9382
Eisdrache
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I don't really care about Nanami but Misaki was <3
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Old 2012-10-09, 13:23   Link #9383
Robotech Master
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But Hatfield was operating along with Strom around the same time that Nanami was still alive. Why would two people who aren't clones have the same fragment at the same time.

And why would he always announce "Aqua Corral" only when using the defensive spiral, but instead say Rain Needle, Rain Hammer, Rain Laser, and Rain Grinder for the other techniques? If Aqua Coral was the name of his fragment, and not the name of the technique, why not say the name of the defensive spiral when using it? If he says the name of his fragment when activating his power, then why not say it as a prefix to Rain Hammer, Rain Laser, etc. Either way its inconsistent. It's only consistent if they were technique names in each instance.

And 'level of expertise' is not the only observable difference in their power. The ability to control water at will would mean you could hurl it at high pressure speeds to blast someone back, wash it over someone and hold it there to drown them, whip them around with powerful waves, fire hose people, etc.

HatField did things that merely controlling water doesn't cover. He *changed* waters properties. He could make a hammer out of water and actually smash people with it. That involves no sense of velocity or pressure, he could just physically smash people without the water engulfing his target--he could make its surface be like a wall. He could impale people with spikes made of water at close range. No ability to really build up any speed or anything, he could simply will Water to become sharp like a spear. Again, if all you did was control water, you'd be able to make it take the shape of a spike, but how would you actually drive it through someone at close range, without hurling it at Mach 7 or something? He also made a Destructo Disc out of water that cut a large Mecha in half without moving at supersonic speeds.

The level of difference between how they ultimately function, imho, is almost like that between Fire and Agnishwattas. They're similar powers, but one seems to be manipulating that power in a completely different physical way that the other is incapable of.

Aruka did say that her power was the highest level of the fire/heat types of fragments. Given that, it's not a stretch to believe that there are different types and levels of other elemental related fragments. In fact, I'd bet that the Resistance Leader's Clay Armor fragment and Misaki's Felsen Sand are distantly related.
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Old 2012-10-09, 15:24   Link #9384
Xiammes
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Quote:
But Hatfield was operating along with Strom around the same time that Nanami was still alive. Why would two people who aren't clones have the same fragment at the same time.
Everyone gets 1 fragment, it makes more sense that their are two people with the same fragment then to believe Hattfield has 2 fragments(the ability to control water and summon rain).

Quote:
And why would he always announce "Aqua Corral" only when using the defensive spiral, but instead say Rain Needle, Rain Hammer, Rain Laser, and Rain Grinder for the other techniques?
Maybe because Aqua Coral is the basic technique of the Aqua Coral fragment, like Kandata string is the basic technique of the Kandata String fragment.


Quote:
If he says the name of his fragment when activating his power, then why not say it as a prefix to Rain Hammer, Rain Laser, etc. Either way its inconsistent. It's only consistent if they were technique names in each instance.
.
Its to sound cool, also it might be a translation problem

Quote:
And 'level of expertise' is not the only observable difference in their power. The ability to control water at will would mean you could hurl it at high pressure speeds to blast someone back, wash it over someone and hold it there to drown them, whip them around with powerful waves, fire hose people, etc.


HatField did things that merely controlling water doesn't cover. He *changed* waters properties. He could make a hammer out of water and actually smash people with it.

That involves no sense of velocity or pressure, he could just physically smash people without the water engulfing his target--he could make its surface be like a wall. He could impale people with spikes made of water at close range. No ability to really build up any speed or anything, he could simply will Water to become sharp like a spear

That involves no sense of velocity or pressure, he could just physically smash people without the water engulfing his target--he could make its surface be like a wall. He could impale people with spikes made of water at close range. No ability to really build up any speed or anything, he could simply will Water to become sharp like a spear. Again, if all you did was control water, you'd be able to make it take the shape of a spike, but how would you actually drive it through someone at close range, without hurling it at Mach 7 or something? He also made a Destructo Disc out of water that cut a large Mecha in half without moving at supersonic speeds.
It can be explained as lolfiction, that does not prove that they didn't have the same ability, it was explained early that his rain could already pierce diamonds, attaching logic to how its possible won't make any since.



Quote:
The level of difference between how they ultimately function, imho, is almost like that between Fire and Agnishwattas. They're similar powers, but one seems to be manipulating that power in a completely different physical way that the other is incapable of.

Aruka did say that her power was the highest level of the fire/heat types of fragments.
Again, Agnishwattas is not a fire fragment, its a thermal energy fragment their is no such thing as "water energy fragment" the closest you will get is a kinetic energy fragment, which wouldn't allow him to control just water.


Quote:
Given that, it's not a stretch to believe that there are different types and levels of other elemental related fragments. In fact, I'd bet that the Resistance Leader's Clay Armor fragment and Misaki's Felsen Sand are distantly related.
Zakado's fragment was called Felson Avalanche, Misaki's called hers Felsen Sand, they could be the same power, but I haven't seen enough of of Zakado's power to say so yet.
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Old 2012-10-09, 20:58   Link #9385
Avvesione
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This reminds me of a discussion point that occurred in Needless when they were explaining how Blade was able to nullify Agnishwattas by using the Fourth Wave has a means of overcoming the extreme heat. Because the two fragments share a common area of the brain (in this case, heat) then Blade as able to use the Fourth Wave based off what he learned from Agnishwattas to absorb it.

Now consider the case of Nanami and Hatfield who both have control over water. Nanami's fragment is Aqua Coral whereas Hatfield has Rain Maker. It's entirely possible that these two different fragments utilize the same areas of the brain which would explain why both Nanami and Hatfield can use Aqua Coral (manipulating the speed and direction of water) but have two different fragments (seeing as Hatfield can do much more with water than Nanami).

Furthermore, Saten provided some hints during that chapter as well (41 if you wanna go back and reread it). He said something along the line of how his fragment and Aruka's fragment would fit perfectly if the fragments were aligned in a puzzle according to the laws of the universe. It could be that Nanami's and Hatfield are the same with Nanami's being next to Hatfield in whatever organization of Fragments there are. And quite possibily, you'd have Strom next to them based on his Ice fragment.

I'm not sure if that answer will satisfy either of you but it's how I view the difference between Nanami's Aqua Coral and Hatfield's Rain Maker. Both fragments utilize the Aqua Coral aspect of the brain but Rain Maker can do more.
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Old 2012-10-09, 23:29   Link #9386
Kurohane
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Thank you for bringing that up, Avvesionne. I had forgotten about what Saten said in that chapter. This goes along with Aurka and Saten being an ideal team. She is rapidly increase molecule vibrations to induce heat. Its ideal for Saten because she can create heat if he is ever deprived of it like when battling Strom. Like you said, Rain Maker and Aqua Coral must share similar parts of the brain. it wouldn't be strange at all if the Aqua Coral is contained in one shared part. After all, withstanding heat was a common trait in both Agni Shiwattas and Fourth Wave. I wonder if Pyschokinesis, Graviton and Magnetic World share simlar areas of the brain in since they deal with controling objects.

The Second Christ as the only one to have all portions of the brain unlocked was considered Godlike due to having access to all the brains usually dormant capabilities. Makes you wonder how the 666 commitee managed to kill him.

This again makes me think of Yamada and even Ishiyama about their fragments and what areas of the brain they cover. Ishiyama is fighting now, so hopefully during that, will explain how is able to defy gravity along with drawing out other people's memories. Cruz is another mystery. We have seen him able to withstand an attack from Agni Shiwattas and is able to block it with his hand. He can even withstand the effects from Psycokinesis. We have seen him wisthand both heat and telekenitic force. Also, both times seem to be limited to his body only. He stopped Agini Shiwattas with his bare hands. When it got past Blade's magnetic world, the skin on his hand was sizzling and melting off. Eve's metal shield coundn't do a thing either.

I know when fighting Riru it showed a barrier surronding him, Eve and Disk, and from that, stopped the effects of psycokinesis on Eve's heart, but later Riru managed to entagle both Eve and Disk with her fragment even with his power active and used them to slam into him. We have two different fragments but Cruz is able to negate them with no sign of any force whatsoever. It would make sense with Set and Solva. They could somehow redirect and block both fragments with gravity and magnetic force respectively. What areas of the brain does his power cover and how so diverse. So far every fragment encountered dealt with only one area, excluding zero.
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Old 2012-10-10, 09:50   Link #9387
Xiammes
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The problem here Avversione is that Hatfield has shown all the traits for Aqua Coral. Arca maybe able to supply heat, but she can't absorb it like Saten, and Saten can't produce more heat energy then what he takes in.

All the fragments are fundamentally different despite sharing similar sections of the brain. Saying Hatfield has the same power as Aqua Coral and more won't make sense, he would have 2 fragments. Its much easier to say he is a Aqua Coral user and he has the ability to rain dance from his family lineage(he said openly that he comes from a family of rain dancers).
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Old 2012-10-10, 11:04   Link #9388
Kurohane
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He stated after explaining his family heritage that him a descendent having this fragment must be the will of God. That means the power to call forth rain was one of his fragment's abilities if not the main ability. You are thinking too much into this Xiammes.
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Old 2012-10-10, 11:17   Link #9389
Robotech Master
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avvesione View Post
This reminds me of a discussion point that occurred in Needless when they were explaining how Blade was able to nullify Agnishwattas by using the Fourth Wave has a means of overcoming the extreme heat. Because the two fragments share a common area of the brain (in this case, heat) then Blade as able to use the Fourth Wave based off what he learned from Agnishwattas to absorb it.

Now consider the case of Nanami and Hatfield who both have control over water. Nanami's fragment is Aqua Coral whereas Hatfield has Rain Maker. It's entirely possible that these two different fragments utilize the same areas of the brain which would explain why both Nanami and Hatfield can use Aqua Coral (manipulating the speed and direction of water) but have two different fragments (seeing as Hatfield can do much more with water than Nanami).

Furthermore, Saten provided some hints during that chapter as well (41 if you wanna go back and reread it). He said something along the line of how his fragment and Aruka's fragment would fit perfectly if the fragments were aligned in a puzzle according to the laws of the universe. It could be that Nanami's and Hatfield are the same with Nanami's being next to Hatfield in whatever organization of Fragments there are. And quite possibily, you'd have Strom next to them based on his Ice fragment.

I'm not sure if that answer will satisfy either of you but it's how I view the difference between Nanami's Aqua Coral and Hatfield's Rain Maker. Both fragments utilize the Aqua Coral aspect of the brain but Rain Maker can do more.
I'm satisfied with that interpretation.
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Old 2012-10-10, 18:04   Link #9390
Avvesione
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Originally Posted by Xiammes View Post
The problem here Avversione is that Hatfield has shown all the traits for Aqua Coral. Arca maybe able to supply heat, but she can't absorb it like Saten, and Saten can't produce more heat energy then what he takes in.

All the fragments are fundamentally different despite sharing similar sections of the brain. Saying Hatfield has the same power as Aqua Coral and more won't make sense, he would have 2 fragments. Its much easier to say he is a Aqua Coral user and he has the ability to rain dance from his family lineage(he said openly that he comes from a family of rain dancers).
How about I put it this way: from the looks of it, Aqua Coral is the move/attack to summon and control water. Nanami and Hatfield both say it when they summon water up from the ground. Hatfield, however, has Rain Maker which allows him to summon the water from the air and atmosphere. In order to use Rain Maker, you must have some aspect of Aqua Coral unlocked in the brain in order for it to be used. That is why both Needlesses use Aqua Coral as an attack.

The difference between the two fragments, however, is how the summoned water is used. Nanami controls the flow of water in the form of a water elemental and using it to blast her opponents with its force. That's something Hatfield never did. Hatfield, instead, forms his water into weapons, such as lasers, hammers, razors, and spikes. That is something Nanami has never done. Perhaps this difference in how they can control the water and utilize it as a weapon is how to differentiate Aqua Coral and Rain Maker. Since that's what we've seen, then the difference in their fragments is how they can control the water in their attacks. Both Needlesses need Aqua Coral to summon the water to use it, but Aqua Coral itself and Rain Maker itself are two different fragments in how it is ultimately controlled and used in battle.
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Old 2012-10-10, 18:52   Link #9391
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This whole Aqua Coral/Rain Maker discussion reminds me of Bionic Compressor and the Wind fragment. Wind is the result of different pressure areas so I wouldn't be surprised if there's some sort of basic technique which both Rin and the Black madam share, just like Aqua Coral(fragment) and Rain Maker share Aqua Coral(technique).
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Old 2012-10-10, 19:04   Link #9392
Kurohane
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Plus if Hatfield and Nanami had the same fragment why was one consider to be close in power to the four Shintenou and the other a member of the girl squad, who was easily killed early in the story.

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Originally Posted by Ynot View Post
This whole Aqua Coral/Rain Maker discussion reminds me of Bionic Compressor and the Wind fragment. Wind is the result of different pressure areas so I wouldn't be surprised if there's some sort of basic technique which both Rin and the Black madam share, just like Aqua Coral(fragment) and Rain Maker share Aqua Coral(technique).
Good example, Ynot.
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Old 2012-10-12, 08:12   Link #9393
Sayo A.
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Back again (again). I've been looking for a job, which is taking up far too much of my precious browsing time. But never mind that. Here are some random thoughts on chapter 105:

I thought it was interesting that Riru asks if any of our heroes has a Stigma(ta). There's no evidence that Eve or Disk have them, but I'm still wondering about the strange appearance of Cruz's eye. Which hasn't repeated itself, and remains unexplained. And there's the fact that Arclight's body is already pretty well covered, so where are the remaining three supposed to go?

As for those three Stigmata, who else might have one? Well, Uten's reference to battles between their holders (see page 18) would seem to imply that Seth does. (And now would be a good time for her to show it, if so.) I'm wondering about Solva too, since her severed nerves seem to have recovered pretty rapidly (apparently this can take several months in real life, if it happens at all) - though for all we know that could be completely "normal" for a Needless...

So, on to the new character(s). For starters, I'm not convinced that the chap who breaks out of the experimental ward is the same one who appears with Ishiyama later on, for various reasons:

Why is Saten there to meet him, if it's Ishiyama he's teaming up with?
He would seem to have got cleaned up and dressed, and relocated himself, all in a very short period of time.
Nothing happened with the key Saten was holding.
He doesn't seem particularly well disposed toward Simeon personnel when he first appears, so why would he be helping them later on?

All of these are debatable, of course. Why I really think they're two different people is this: Saten is up to something. We know his aims don't necessarily coincide with Arclight, Simeon, 666 or anyone else, and I suspect he's acting against them in this case. Or rather, setting things up for someone else to act against them while he keeps his hands clean.

And what is the identity of the new arrival(s)? Oddly enough, my first thought on seeing Big Guy No.1 was "wouldn't it be funny if that were a buffed-up, rejuvenated Gido?" And that was even before I saw Big Guy No.2 (or the re-appearance of No.1, if they turn out to be the same person after all). I suppose that means I half agree with the Gido theory...

By the way, I don't believe Big Guy No.2 has the power to grow to giant size. It's just dramatic perspective. Nor does the fact he's holding out his hand mean there's any connection with the "left and right hand of God", considering that Needless is big on outstretched hands generally. In fact, it would probably be easier to make a list of the characters who don't do that than the ones who do...
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Old 2012-10-12, 09:33   Link #9394
K. Shiruto
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I wasn't sure at first, but no more, because Seth in the end didn't recognize him, and it makes sense she wouldn't. There's no doubt it's him, is Gido, rejuvenated, buffed up, and more important: needless.

Remember the shadowed guy in lab coat from that spread featuring Arclight along with uncountable needlesses?
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Old 2012-10-12, 13:40   Link #9395
Kurohane
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I want to bring up a topic I mentioned not too long ago, and that is Ishiyama's and Yamada's fragments and what areas of the brain they cover. Ishiyama is fighting now, so hopefully during that, he'll explain how he is able to defy gravity along with drawing out other people's memories. Cruz is another mystery. We have seen him able to withstand an attack from Agni Shiwattas and is able to block it with his hand. He can even withstand the effects from Psycokinesis. We have seen him wisthand both heat, telekenitic force, and even an ice attack from Strom before his "supposed" awakening. Also, all times seem to be limited to his body only. He stopped Agini Shiwattas with his bare hands. When it got past Blade's magnetic world, the skin on his hand was sizzling and melting off. Eve's metal shield coundn't do a thing either.

I know when fighting Riru it showed a barrier surronding him, Eve and Disk, and from that, stopped the effects of pyscokinesis on Eve's heart, but later Riru managed to entagle both Eve and Disk with her fragment even with his power active and used them to slam into him. We have three different fragments but Cruz is able to negate them with no sign of any force whatsoever at least not on all occasions. It would make sense with Set and Solva. They could somehow redirect and block all three fragments with gravity and magnetic force respectively. What areas of the brain does his power cover and how so diverse? So far every fragment encountered dealt with only one area, excluding zero.
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Old 2012-10-12, 18:38   Link #9396
Xiammes
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I was board today so I started thinking about how Triple 6 killed the Second Christ. Many theories popped up, but remembering the condition of the Second Christs body, he likely died in battle instead of some underhanded tactic.

What could they have done to kill this near god like entity? Nuclear weapons? It wouldn't go unnoticed. Using military force wouldn't go unnoticed either, they were trying to cover up the existence of Needless, any military force sufficient enough to kill The Second would draw too much attention.

So how the hell could they kill him. What if they found a way to negate his powers? He would be nothing more then a ordinary human and could be killed with ease without drawing too much attention. The only known power that can do such a thing is the Shield of Aegis. The created a creature(A antiNeedless) that could analyze powers, find the weak spot and negate them with the Shield of Aegis. After The Seconds death, The anti-Needless was no longer needed and disposed off.

So what if Cruz was created by the resistance and they planned on using Cruz to kill Arclight? They used Arca's DNA and gave him artificial memories. Cruz was actually born in Mengroze's lab, they put the second chip in the safest place possible(the head of a anti-needless).

This theory has its flaws, but I think Cruz origins and the death of The Second are related.
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Old 2012-10-12, 23:55   Link #9397
pir
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How the Second Christ was killed? That simple. Read chapter 49. He lost all his powers before he was killed. That all.
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Old 2012-10-13, 07:48   Link #9398
Xiammes
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How exactly did his lose his powers? No one in the world should have had matching DNA as him, so something had to happen.
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Old 2012-10-14, 01:04   Link #9399
Avvesione
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How the Second Christ was killed? That simple. Read chapter 49. He lost all his powers before he was killed. That all.
So there's a way to remove the power of Needlesses without being a Needless. Interesting.

Wonder how they went about doing that and why they wanted to kill him and potentially fragment his powers. Maybe Mizuha knows, especially considering she hid the "blue prints" into the two chips.
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Old 2012-10-14, 02:32   Link #9400
pir
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History of Second Christ is very difficult undestand. According chapter 49 Second Christ was very strange needless. He had box of jewels(Fragments). He was attacked evil people and lost his jewels( fragments). How? Not any needless lost his fragment if he/she was wounded. I believe Second Christ was different from current needless and can lost his fragments. According chapter 46 it was heavely implied Second Christ was killed japanese goverment to protect him from triple six. They can killed him because he already lost his fragments.
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