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Old 2012-10-10, 15:16   Link #41
Rakuda
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I might be mis-seeing things, but on page 14 just after Obito smashes the guy's face in and his mask shatters, if you look at his forehead protector the symbol looks like the Konoha leaf rather than the Kiri mist... but then again it may be a chip of the mask
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Old 2012-10-10, 16:08   Link #42
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I wonder what's so special about Rin that the Mist ninjas need to recover her body. Rin has been in Konoha's "possession" for quite a while. So what's the sudden urgency? I think the double-agent idea could work. She could have stolen some forbidden tech from the Leaf and then hidden it on her person. I don't know if that would justify Kakashi's actions though.

One thing that stands out is that Obito seems to have been 'chosen' by Madara. This seems to imply that Madara didn't just come across Obito by chance. Obito wasn't some random Uchiha that just happened onto Madara's lair, but was an Uchiha with extraordinary potential. Did Madara know about Obito prior to their meeting in the cave? Or alternatively, does Madara have some kind of fortune-telling ability? The latter possibility isn't so far-fetched. Madara's relationship with Obito has been compared to the relationship between the Emperor and Anakin (from Star Wars). And recall that much of the Emperor's plan hinged on his ability to foresee the outcome of events far in advance.
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Old 2012-10-10, 16:22   Link #43
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
This is not something open to speculation anymore

Fact 1 : The Mist renamed itself Bloody Mist when Madara controlled Yagura and regained its old name after Yagura's death.
Fact 2 : those ninjas said they were not from the Mist, but from the Bloody Mist, hence working indirectly for Madara or the long haired masked man.
Only a fool would deny the connection and call it coincidence. Seriously.

And I repeat myself since no one picked up on it, but the man who made Yagura create the Bloody Mist era is not Obito. Obito didn't manipulate Yagura (the manipulation started too early) and Obito didn't kill the Uchiha (since it was the guy who manipulated Yagura who did it)
Most likely, Tobi was really just a Zetsu underling like he was supposed to be and his story to Sasuke was right : he had nothing to do with the Kyuubi attack. Kishi is dropping him from master manipulator final villain to irrelevant Kakashi villain. (and Kakashi can't fight the guy who massacred the Uchiha and caused Minato's death since this / those guys are reserved for Naruto and Sasuke)
You insist on presenting a lot of your personal theories as fact (not doubting the facts labled "fact" here). I'll give you that it sounds likely, but there still isn't enough concrete proof that things are exactly as you say they are.

The reason I'm mentioning this, is that there's a possibility that Madara may only be indirectly involved here. He doesn't seem capable of controlling the Mist directly right now.

Plus, you know, why would Madara be an accomplice to making the world even more twitsted?
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Old 2012-10-10, 17:08   Link #44
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Now I'm wondering if it was Zetsu fighting Minato simply using Obito's body. Though it's possible there's more brainwashing for Obito to do it himself.
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Old 2012-10-10, 17:56   Link #45
james0246
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
I don't know if that would justify Kakashi's actions though.
I really don't see how Kakashi's actions wouldn't be justified if Rin really was a traitor. A case could be made if she was hypnotized (Wait...doesn't Madara have that ability (or at least an eye that can do something similar)? ), but if she was a traitor of her own volition, then death was always the most likely outcome.

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Or alternatively, does Madara have some kind of fortune-telling ability?
I'm not going to discount the possibility (and have long expected such an ability to pop up with an Sharingan user), but isn't it as likely that Madara simply used some good old fashioned eugenics to get what he wants?

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
And recall that much of the Emperor's plan hinged on his ability to foresee the outcome of events far in advance.
Actually, to get a little geeky here, Palpatine's victory hinged on his ability to prevent other Jedi from seeing the future (since it is an ability all force users share...though Palpatine did have uncommonly powerful visions). He used the Dark Side to cloud the future and to directly influence Anakin's actions (by giving him force visions of negative futures, etc).
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Old 2012-10-10, 18:32   Link #46
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
You insist on presenting a lot of your personal theories as fact (not doubting the facts labled "fact" here). I'll give you that it sounds likely, but there still isn't enough concrete proof that things are exactly as you say they are.
Okay : Let's start again :

fact 1 : those ninjas belonged to the Bloody Mist
fact 2 : the Bloody Mist was the Mist when Yagura was manipulated by Madara or the long haired masked man.

Something to argue ? Read the mangas because Yes, there are proofs.


Quote:
The reason I'm mentioning this, is that there's a possibility that Madara may only be indirectly involved here. He doesn't seem capable of controlling the Mist directly right now.
Bloody Mist ninjas (reporting to the Masked Man / Madara-controlled Yagura) were involved and it had nothing to with Madara or the masked man ? And just a coincidence if due to the action of those ninjas, Obito ends up like Madara wanted him ?
Are you Obito in disguise : "you will never acknowledge this ?"

Quote:
Plus, you know, why would Madara be an accomplice to making the world even more twitsted?
I have no idea what you are talking about, but in case you didn't read the little symbols in the bubbles, Madara chose Obito and wants him to do something ("to repay his debt"), which would have never happened if Obito met up with Kakashi and Rin and nothing unusual happened.
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Old 2012-10-10, 19:07   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
Okay : Let's start again :

fact 1 : those ninjas belonged to the Bloody Mist
fact 2 : the Bloody Mist was the Mist when Yagura was manipulated by Madara or the long haired masked man.

Something to argue ? Read the mangas because Yes, there are proofs.
Actually I was wondering about this. Is there anywhere in the manga or databooks which say that the Bloody Mist is only associated with Yagura's rule? I read the wikia and it seems to point to the name coming from the graduation ceremony that Yagura initiated but it doesn't provide a source so I was wondering if that might only be supposition as I don't remember it ever being stated.

The only evidence I was able to see that might point to that was a conversation between the Mei and Ao when she says their no longer the Bloody Mist now that Yagura's gone but that doesn't mean that they weren't the Bloody Mist before Yagura appeared.

Even so we could also argue that Yagura got the Mist the bloody Mist without being manipulated but I think this point is right now more important for me.

Also don't say read the manga if you going to present a theory have evidence yourself to back it up. A lack of evidence to disprove you doesn't prove your case. That's the logic of conspiracy theorists.
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Old 2012-10-10, 19:42   Link #48
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If the masked man who manipulated Yagura and Kisame isn't Obito, we have a plot hole on our hands. Kisame recognized the long-haired manipulator and Tobi as the same person.

Of course there's not really any way out for Kishimoto in terms of making it plothole free anyway.

Cue people crying that "BUT WE HAVEN"T SEEN IT ALL EXPLAINED YET."
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Old 2012-10-10, 20:23   Link #49
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What if Rin was hired by Madara and he planned all this out for Obito before that entire mission? O.o
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Old 2012-10-10, 20:28   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Shining Celebi View Post
If the masked man who manipulated Yagura and Kisame isn't Obito, we have a plot hole on our hands. Kisame recognized the long-haired manipulator and Tobi as the same person.

Of course there's not really any way out for Kishimoto in terms of making it plothole free anyway.

Cue people crying that "BUT WE HAVEN"T SEEN IT ALL EXPLAINED YET."
a plot hole is only a plot hole once everything has been explained... plain and simple. the fact is that we don't know for certain who the long haired tobi was. he may very well be obito, but it hasn't been shown yet

also, your current 'plot hole' of it possibly not being obito with the long hair can easily be filled up by genjutsu
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Old 2012-10-10, 21:31   Link #51
adawan
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why kakashi killed rin in [cut] naurto 605[/URL],we see kakashi is awake.so,after reading the new chapter.. was thinking...what if Rin really is a spy for the Hidden Mist? I like this theory (called such cause it's still not clear about her allegiance), cause it makes sense..at least for turning Obito into Tobi...

Here's what I think:

Hidden Mist managed to get their hands on a byakugan, along with information about it, held by Rin. She was found out, and this led to the battle as we saw it.

What do you guys think?

Last edited by james0246; 2012-10-10 at 23:57. Reason: do not include links to licensed materials...
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Old 2012-10-10, 23:33   Link #52
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This chapter literally explained nothing.
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Old 2012-10-10, 23:56   Link #53
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Originally Posted by iBeast View Post
This chapter literally explained nothing.
Well...it did explain how Kakashi and Obito gained their MS. Kind of short, but still relevant (sadly it was also a core theory speculated on 5+ years ago).
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Old 2012-10-11, 00:08   Link #54
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I think the insatiable obsession with discovering so called “plot-holes” around here is hilarious. Many of these proclaimed “plot-holes” aren't even plot-holes to begin with, but simply anomalies that have yet to be explained. Does it make some of you feel smart, to think you caught a mistake from the author? Kishimoto probably doesn't even give a rat's ass, since the few retcons he actually does have usually gain significant approval, and even with these, its conceivable that he probably did them on purpose because he wanted the change as the manga has gone on pretty long and I think he may want to change his mind about certain things. Indeed, most of the millions of fans reading along are probably too busy enjoying the manga to act like the “forensics specialists” we have around here, combing through each chapter for “plot-holes”.

Whats probably even more comical to read are the members who, impulsively go on to create their own convoluted eventualities from mere possible hints, and complain about the author writing something that he didn't even write yet... And of course, their conclusions are quite often proven completely wrong, and in the face of all their ramblings, the story ends up making sense in a way they simply didn't anticipate.
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Old 2012-10-11, 00:15   Link #55
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Many of these proclaimed “plot-holes” aren't even plot-holes to begin with, but simply anomalies that have yet to be explained. Does it make some of you feel smart, to think you caught a mistake from the author?
It's cool to bash on Naruto, they say.
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Old 2012-10-11, 03:50   Link #56
itachi-san314
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This chapter literally explained nothing.
yea nothing at all... except for how obito and kakashi got MS which is something that has been debated for years now...

also, it explained that madara did in fact choose obito which is a big deal as far as this entire backstory and tobi's character go

and it explained that the Mist was known at the time as Bloody Mist. and that they were seeking Rin

or you know... "literally nothing"

after rereading this chapter just now I like it even more. the whole fight is so badass. i think the transition from obito to tobi is quite good and pretty intense
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Old 2012-10-11, 04:25   Link #57
ronin myael
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i just don't understand why so many people hated this chapter and why do they find lack of plot in it
personally, i didn't hate it. i didn't like it either. to me, this is just another chapter that would make more sense once this flashback is done. i don't even want to speculate on who rin really is, i'm going to wait. i just didn't agree with the theories that kakashi somehow locked away his MS or that he didn't know he had it. but of course, if kishi says so then it's canon. and that's what i'm waiting for.

Quote:
after rereading this chapter just now I like it even more. the whole fight is so badass. i think the transition from obito to tobi is quite good and pretty intense
rin must mean awfully a lot to him that he would unleash hell to avenge her death. when he "died", all he could think of was rin, but he never gave a second thought about his family. did he hate the uchiha? did he suffer when he was a child and that rin was the only thing that made his existence a little bearable?

this chapter also revealed one more detail, madara chose obito. this actually makes more sense than obito falling into that pit by accident. perhaps, obito is a direct descendant of madara's. i don't know if it's just a translation error but i believe obito said that madara was an ancestor of his. maybe he wasn't just referring to madara being an uchiha but a direct ancestor. hmmm...
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Old 2012-10-11, 04:48   Link #58
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
Okay : Let's start again :

fact 1 : those ninjas belonged to the Bloody Mist
fact 2 : the Bloody Mist was the Mist when Yagura was manipulated by Madara or the long haired masked man.

Something to argue ? Read the mangas because Yes, there are proofs.
Don't defend the parts I was contesting by re-stating the parts I wasn't contesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
Bloody Mist ninjas (reporting to the Masked Man / Madara-controlled Yagura) were involved and it had nothing to with Madara or the masked man ? And just a coincidence if due to the action of those ninjas, Obito ends up like Madara wanted him ?
Are you Obito in disguise : "you will never acknowledge this ?"
The last line is a rather childish method of debate. Plus you haven't actually read what I said. Because I never said it had nothing to do with him. I said quite the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
I have no idea what you are talking about, but in case you didn't read the little symbols in the bubbles, Madara chose Obito and wants him to do something ("to repay his debt"), which would have never happened if Obito met up with Kakashi and Rin and nothing unusual happened.
That doesn't answer the question at all. "Why would Madara be an accomplice to making the world even more twitsted?"


All I'm saying is, you are making fair assumptions, but you should accept that they are just assumptions and things may not turn out exactly the way you theorize.
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Old 2012-10-11, 05:19   Link #59
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I think the insatiable obsession with discovering so called “plot-holes” around here is hilarious. Many of these proclaimed “plot-holes” aren't even plot-holes to begin with, but simply anomalies that have yet to be explained. Does it make some of you feel smart, to think you caught a mistake from the author?
i find this thing quite awful myself, i personally din't find a single plot hole through out the series
i do make my speculation but that is out of curosity,i don't imlpy them, it is the authors work that is the real story no matter what it is, and i think kishi has done pretty good reasoning of the plot

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this chapter also revealed one more detail, madara chose obito. this actually makes more sense than obito falling into that pit by accident. perhaps, obito is a direct descendant of madara's. i don't know if it's just a translation error but i believe obito said that madara was an ancestor of his. maybe he wasn't just referring to madara being an uchiha but a direct ancestor. hmmm...
it was zetsu who commented on madara choosing obito, it doesn't mean that madara was searching for obito in the world, i still think that madara just found him, and he found a half dead uchiha then why wouldn't he save his him, if he saw a hope that his dream could be carried out by this child,
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Old 2012-10-11, 05:35   Link #60
ronin myael
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it was zetsu who commented on madara choosing obito, it doesn't mean that madara was searching for obito in the world, i still think that madara just found him, and he found a half dead uchiha then why wouldn't he save his him, if he saw a hope that his dream could be carried out by this child,
uh, madara was running out of time, he could barely move at that point, he needed someone to carry on his plan, then all of a sudden an uchiha conveniently fell into his lap, an uchiha with great potential at that. isn't that one hell of a coincidence? personally, i prefer the idea of madara choosing obito and deliberately orchestrating his transition to the dark side so to speak. madara is known to be a schemer, not some guy who would bet everything on luck.
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