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Old 2012-10-11, 21:19   Link #1261
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
On what subject? Abortion?
We need more important topics
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:22   Link #1262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
We need more important topics
Whatever some people like it or not, it IS an important topic. On North of the border, there's a jerk trying to re-open the debate on abortion despite the fact that it was supposedly settled a long time ago.
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:23   Link #1263
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The GOP brought that topic to the table - they've almost made that and devolution of women's rights front and center. I think that was a strategic error thanks to the zealot wing. If the GOP had *stayed focused on fiscal and economic issues, they'd be on much firmer ground.

I think its hilarious to hear Ryan talk about "painting the opponent" when the GOP and the superPACs have absolutely focused on that as a tactic since 2008.
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:25   Link #1264
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Typical moderator question: "I talked to someone--a decorated soldier to boot--who said that both candidates suck and you're a-holes too. Please respond to that, and make sure to feel ashamed of yourselves!"
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:28   Link #1265
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Radditz did that several times -- its a crap tactic to do to either candidate. "Some people" think the moon landings were imaginary. Why are you quoting them, reporter?

Ryan is right to be worried about the debt cliff. The difference is he's exempting the ultra-wealthy from tax increases, paying for 2 unfunded wars, and defense from cuts. That makes the GOP worthless as credible fiscal torch carriers.
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:29   Link #1266
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These are some really odd final questions. "Tell us what gods you follow?" "Tell us what kind of man you are?"

The hell?
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:33   Link #1267
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Ah well, it gave Ryan a chance to sound like a high school student running for student council

In general, this was a much better debate or at least a chance to air views. Assertions got challenged at least a few times in both directions.
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:33   Link #1268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
These are some really odd final questions. "Tell us what gods you follow?" "Tell us what kind of man you are?"

The hell?
Well surprisingly enough those are important enough questions for some of the American public. Who vote based on personality tho.
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:34   Link #1269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
These are some really odd final questions. "Tell us what gods you follow?" "Tell us what kind of man you are?"

The hell?
Surely Biden said "Odin" and Ryan said "Zeus"...what do they expect them to say? Not matter what they believe, they have to say they are Christians. Presidents and VPs have to identify as Christians, or else, well, people will go apeshit.
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:37   Link #1270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Ah well, it gave Ryan a chance to sound like a high school student running for student council

In general, this was a much better debate or at least a chance to air views. Assertions got challenged at least a few times in both directions.
Absolutely. It was very refreshing after last time.

And I agree with David Brooks. Dems will think Biden's aggression a great service, Repubs will see it as intolerable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netto Azure View Post
Well surprisingly enough those are important enough questions for some of the American public. Who vote based on personality tho.
And isn't that just a sad statement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Surely Biden said "Odin" and Ryan said "Zeus"...what do they expect them to say? Not matter what they believe, they have to say they are Christians. Presidents and VPs have to identify as Christians, or else, well, people will go apeshit.
It's a reason I could never be president
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:40   Link #1271
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Ryan ended well. A little loose on facts, and a little too laidback/Obamaesque but still well done. But Biden clearly dominated, and often times eviscerated, this debate. Sometimes he was a little overbearing, but he was always cogent and often nicely emotional.

I will say that the debate was nicely paced. Never a dull moment even if sometimes a little too emphatic (I do appreciate that Ryan actually stood for something, unlike Romney).
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:48   Link #1272
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As someone pointed out elsewhere ... that "pregnant pause" Ryan had before he answered the abortion question spoke silent volumes to women.
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:51   Link #1273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
As someone pointed out elsewhere ... that "pregnant pause" Ryan had before he answered the abortion question spoke silent volumes to women.
What was it about?
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:52   Link #1274
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Biden devoured Ryan alive.
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Old 2012-10-11, 21:54   Link #1275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
What was it about?
The question was, in brief, "Should women be worried about access or right-to-abortion or "keep government out of my private parts"? (worded more civilly). Ryan froze for almost 2 or 3 seconds.

Ryan is on record multiple times as supporting "no abortion for ANY reason at all, no exceptions" --- and he waffled and gave the usual "exceptions for health, rape, incest" claim. Which isn't backed up by what his fellow GOPers are passing either on the state or federal level. Ryan was the guy associated with the oxymoron "forcible rape" and is a supporter of women's reproductive issue bills by the congressman who thinks you can't get pregnant if you don't want to in a rape ... oh, "forcible rape" .... o.O
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Old 2012-10-11, 22:06   Link #1276
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To the people wondering about the questions regarding religion, remember two important things. One, religion matters to a lot of people, and while it shouldn't have a place in government, it does, even if it is due to Constitutional conflict or political grandstanding. Two, it is directly related to this election due to the Catholic Church's position over contraceptives, and by extension, abortion.

It seems like a trivial thing to ask, but the question revealed a lot about the character of both men and what they believe, and how that would influence their positions on policy. Biden's answer was particularly reflective of the issue during the convention, where people who were not Christian felt slighted by the change in the platform from one which was more open to all religions and beliefs toward one which focused more on God and Israel.

His answer and the convention issue reflect a party trying to balance the growing diversity in the country against the expectations of tradition many think still exist.
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Old 2012-10-11, 23:24   Link #1277
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According to CNN, 48% thought Ryan won while 44% are with Biden and CNN itself considers it a draw.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...-44/?hpt=hp_t1

I don't get it, were we watching a different debate? Sure Biden probably came off a little strong, but it's clear who had control and substance here.
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Old 2012-10-11, 23:34   Link #1278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
According to CNN, 48% thought Ryan won while 44% are with Biden and CNN itself considers it a draw.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...-44/?hpt=hp_t1

I don't get it, were we watching a different debate? Sure Biden probably came off a little strong, but it's clear who had control and substance here.
The problem for Biden, according to the pundits on CNN, is that he looked out of control and over-the-top with his constant interruptions and snickering.
Even for Joe, his performance was wacky and came off as childish interruption rather than professionally agressive.

However, I think people are making too much out of this VP debate, it isn't going to change the outcome.
The debates between Romney and Obama are what will matter most.
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Old 2012-10-11, 23:56   Link #1279
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The problem is the "audience" is untrained in debate and analysis, in the need to substantiate assertions, in their fact checking. And apparently the "pundits at CNN" never took debate. Sheesh. At best for Ryan it was a draw (which I'd argue is all he needed to do against an experienced orator).

Remember, CNN, MSNBC, Fox --- they *need* this to be a tight horse race to Election Day. It sells commercials.
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Old 2012-10-11, 23:58   Link #1280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
According to CNN, 48% thought Ryan won while 44% are with Biden and CNN itself considers it a draw.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...-44/?hpt=hp_t1

I don't get it, were we watching a different debate? Sure Biden probably came off a little strong, but it's clear who had control and substance here.

The poll doesn't mean much. A lot of conservatives could've flocked to the online poll to vote for Ryan because they want the poll results to favor Ryan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The problem is the "audience" is untrained in debate and analysis, in the need to substantiate assertions, in their fact checking. And apparently the "pundits at CNN" never took debate. Sheesh. At best for Ryan it was a draw (which I'd argue is all he needed to do against an experienced orator).

Remember, CNN, MSNBC, Fox --- they *need* this to be a tight horse race to Election Day. It sells commercials.
What does ABC news (TV) favor? Left? Right? Center-left? Center-right?
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