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Old 2012-10-12, 08:39   Link #721
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
If it takes this series an entire season to come up with "OH you know what! I just realized, this system itself creates emotional distress on the population and creates these 'psychopaths'! Our system is actually multipling these criminals!" I'm going to headdesk so hard.
How could no one with any fraction of intelligence in this world not see that this is a system of self-fuilfilling prophecy.
It's one of those glaringly obvious fact that shouldn't be a big reveal or exposition.
That what has me worrying too. I mean I think the series has the mood & atmosphere set & I am interested enough in the characters from the first episode but if the point of the story is to say the system is messed up well that's not very interesting if we can tell in the first episode.

I want to have faith in Urobuchi that there is much more to it.
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Old 2012-10-12, 08:42   Link #722
Cosmic Eagle
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Knowing him it'll likely be somehow an attempt to justify the system's necessity...somehow.
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Old 2012-10-12, 09:40   Link #723
Utsuro no Hako
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
If it takes this series an entire season to come up with "OH you know what! I just realized, this system itself creates emotional distress on the population and creates these 'psychopaths'! Our system is actually multipling these criminals!" I'm going to headdesk so hard.
How could no one with any fraction of intelligence in this world not see that this is a system of self-fuilfilling prophecy.

It's one of those glaringly obvious fact that shouldn't be a big reveal or exposition.
The War on Drugs (That Aren't Alcohol and Tobacco) has been wreaking havoc in America for over half a century, yet most people, rather than saying, "This is insane. We should be treating the real problems instead of sending kids to juvie where they learn to become real criminals," are instead in favor of letting every podunk police department have its own SWAT team to conduct military-style raids in residential neighborhoods.
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Old 2012-10-12, 09:42   Link #724
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lets just say minority report has the same glaring weakness too...but the problem is if someone attempt to abuse the system for their own need...since the CC is dependent on some factor (stress,etc) as long as those factor being modified the CC will be high and the computer will see the person as dangerous, the system as i see it isnt build around psychic like in minority report rather some calculation of factor so you can find loophole in calculation or bug in the system itself to help you either to escape conviction or to convict other
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Old 2012-10-12, 10:30   Link #725
desrtsku
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^ It's like saying you can charge someone with a crime he didn't commit by leaving fake (but pertinent) evidences leading to his culpability in the scene of a crime or erasing the evidences to clear yourself ... that's not something new in this world
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Old 2012-10-12, 10:39   Link #726
whitecloud
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^ It's like saying you can charge someone with a crime he didn't commit by leaving fake (but pertinent) evidences leading to his culpability in the scene of a crime or erasing the evidences to clear yourself ... that's not something new in this world
yeah...but this system is supposed to predict crime...if this thing is abused the person who abuse it could easily eliminate anyone they want under the name "legal" justice system and not be blamed for it. Especially since CC is determined by computer and just basically values....once it's high it's set alarm and that's it...on the other hand someone could also escape under the same notion as long one could found a loophole or bug, after all nothing is perfect...

I can imagine a situation that the MC found herself in a case like above and want to fix it but in the end have to fight the whole system...

Last edited by whitecloud; 2012-10-12 at 10:52.
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Old 2012-10-12, 11:06   Link #727
Tenchi Ryu
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I can understand why people feel system this has flaws, and I see it does too. But from what we've seen currently, this place is a real sh%thole apparently. It probably got to the point where the government just said to hell with morals and good judgement, just take care of the situation as soon as possible, any means necessary. This would also explain why they are using criminals in the first place, people they KNOW will pull the trigger without hesitation.
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Old 2012-10-12, 11:12   Link #728
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I can understand why people feel system this has flaws, and I see it does too. But from what we've seen currently, this place is a real sh%thole apparently. It probably got to the point where the government just said to hell with morals and good judgement, just take care of the situation as soon as possible, any means necessary. This would also explain why they are using criminals in the first place, people they KNOW will pull the trigger without hesitation.
That's fine and dandy, but the problem is, it's not a solution, it's a problem itself.

It's like saying hey, it's getting too cold in here, let's open the windows and let the snow in.
Utter retardation of logic.
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Old 2012-10-12, 11:40   Link #729
Tenchi Ryu
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Utter retardation of logic.
After awhile, people say f#%k logic, just keep my ass safe. Sad but true.

I think a better phrase for this particular situation would be "Its cold outside, lets locked the doors and never leave for the rest of our lives". It solves your first problem, but creates multiple new ones.
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Old 2012-10-12, 11:45   Link #730
desrtsku
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Originally Posted by whitecloud View Post
yeah...but this system is supposed to predict crime...
Heh, not exactly, this system does not predict crime, it just detects potential criminals. Well, I understand what you're trying to tell, but it's just too generic in both reality and fiction. Also, I'm pretty sure everyone noticed the main antagonist already managed to pull something like that off from the very first scene of the episode ... it's not something new, really.
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Old 2012-10-12, 12:16   Link #731
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just watched the episode and i thought it was good a nice mix of crime drama and anime action, though there were some scenes that they could without, but all in all for it style its a good first episode

and that first scene was like a stand off between spyke(CB) and his mortal enemy who i forget the name of
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Old 2012-10-12, 12:25   Link #732
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First scene made a lot more sense after getting through the explanation about how the gun works. I wonder how long it'll be before we dive into the whole thing about how the system has its loopholes/defects [as in see it more clearly for all the characters, not just us the viewers].

Don't understand though, realistically, shouldn't this system (if its able to quantify stress and what not so well) also include other variables into its calculation? As in, if even a regular criminal/citizen knows that another person staying with a person with a high number coefficient will result in them getting a high one too, why wouldn't the system factor those "temporary" (or is it assuming it's permanent) values in?

In other words, the system calculation should be: [Base calculation/analysis of stress/mental stability] - [quantified # related to "x" amount of time spent with High Coefficient Y (*this probably is not a linear function*)] - [quantified # related to victim's surroundings (*in other words, were they about to get raped, were they almost killed, saw a man get blown to pieces, etc.*)].

The amount of time spent together should be pretty easy to get in terms of ballpark numbers, while the latter will depend on the enforcers own inputs (attempted rape, etc.). After factoring all those confounding variables in, should the system issue a judgement.

Either way though, even with all that, we've seen in the opening scenes of episode 1 that there is a way to defy the detection of the gun, it was only after his helmet was partially destroyed that the gun was able to do its "job" again and blow the dude to pieces.
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Old 2012-10-12, 13:12   Link #733
Kirarakim
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Come to think of it I find the gun more interesting than the system. The gun almost feels like a false safety net because you never have to make that hard decision. I don't have to rely on myself but the gun will tell me when I should or should not shoot (gives a new meaning to guns don't kill but people do).
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Old 2012-10-12, 13:59   Link #734
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^ it's more like the gun doesn't allow you to shoot certain people and gives you the permission to do so with other ones. Even if you have an over 160CC murderer before your nose and the gun releases its safety, it's still up to you to pull the trigger or not. I think the whole purpose of the gun is more to prevent innocent people from being hurt
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Old 2012-10-12, 15:16   Link #735
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My understanding was that the gun works this way so that agents don't have to wonder about what to do. The process is simplified to the extreme. If the gun tells you can shoot, you shoot. Akane was reprimanded by the other inspector because she failed to do that and acted on her own judgment instead. Nobody (besides Akane) seems to ask themselves any questions. They just do what the system tells them to do. I doubt anybody would have blamed Kogami for killing that disturbed yet innocent woman.
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Old 2012-10-12, 15:36   Link #736
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
If the gun tells you can shoot, you shoot.
But was the gun designed with that intent in mind,or did the inspectors get lazy?

I could see this as being a case where the original intent was to have the inspector be the final decision maker but over time inspectors just started blindly trusting the gun without thinking and by now it's become so extreme that you're not allowed to question it.
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Old 2012-10-12, 15:52   Link #737
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In most respects, this was an excellent first episode.

Stylish, gritty, ballsy, generally good "cop drama". Rock solid dialogue. The grimdark, crapsack world setting is leavened a bit by the sheer stylish beauty of a lot of it as well as by the perkiness, naivety, and idealism of the female lead. All in all, it's a superb total package.

The problem is though that this Psycho-Pass is almost too flawed for its own good, as many other people have already alluded to. I think we were all pretty confident that the flaws of this Psycho-Pass system would be explored in this anime, and that it would really grapple with the ethics of it all.

With this in mind, I recall an old sci-fi movie from the 90s (the name of which unfortunately escapes me right now) that had a somewhat similar system in place. Basically, the movie focused a lot on a time traveling police force who stopped crimes before they happened, by going back in time to arrest the person who was going to commit the crime before they'd have a chance to commit it.

This raised a decidedly thought-provoking ethical issue - At a societal level, this time traveling cop system made sense. It would definitely mean fewer crimes, and fewer victims of crime. But it would also mean that people are technically getting arrested for crimes they haven't (yet) committed. There's something a little bit disturbing about that. Still, the broader societal benefits to this time traveling cop system was clear.


Psycho-Pass is somewhat similar, except in place of using time travel to stop "potential" criminals it uses quantified psychiatric measurements of sorts. This too could raise some decidedly thought-provoking ethical issues - But the overall execution of the system just seems too immensely flawed for a serious defense of it to be raised.

I can see some merit in stopping likely criminals before they can commit a crime. I can even kind of buy the idea of a futuristic psychiatric measuring device coming to the determination of "Yep, this guy/gal is totally beyond any real hope of rehabilitation". What I have a harder time buying is the system seemingly not accounting at all for its self-fulfilling prophecy risk. Hell, the system even exacerbates that risk beyond what you'd expect, what with killing people in the most needlessly gruesome and bloody ways imaginable (meaning that any innocent people who catch sight of that are naturally going to get extremely traumatized by it, no doubt throwing off their Psycho-Pass score).

Most of all, though, I found it pretty incredible that one minute the Psycho-Pass gun is saying "This woman is beyond all hope, kill her", and just a minute or two later its saying "This woman is now safe to take in, just paralyze her". If a few reassuring words from a raw Inspector is all it takes to shift someone from "beyond rehabilitation, kill her" to "please paralyze and take in" then that is one abysmally flawed system.


So, yeah, this episode could have hardly been any more forceful in hammering home the idea of "This Psycho-Pass system is seriously effed up!"

Now, I guess Gen might pull an interesting twist here, making you think that in spite of its glaring flaws this system is worth it anyway. But I'm admittedly a bit skeptical of that, just because it's a very tall order on the face of it.

So I think that maybe the theme of this show is that you really can go too far in "getting tough on crime". Maybe that's the social commentary here - If you're too hard on crime, you actually create more criminals out of normal people who become fearful of the police because they're too harsh/strict/dangerous. And if that's part of the theme of this show, it is an interesting one.


In any event, this was still an excellent first episode. For me, it had almost as much style as K, but with way more substance.

9/10 for Psycho-Pass Episode 1.
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Old 2012-10-12, 16:12   Link #738
desrtsku
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
If the gun tells you can shoot, you shoot.
But was the gun designed with that intent in mind,or did the inspectors get lazy?

I could see this as being a case where the original intent was to have the inspector be the final decision maker but over time inspectors just started blindly trusting the gun without thinking and by now it's become so extreme that you're not allowed to question it.
That's a good point. Yeah, my main concern about that is : if you have to obey mechanically to the gun, then why using humans to pull the trigger in the first place when they have drone with AI which looks like they can move around the place do it?
There must be cases where you just can't shoot down the guys even if the gun says it. For instance, let's take the cases of hostages. You can shoot the guy with a paralyser but if the paralyser fails or if you miss the latent criminal might snap (went over 160 ) and kill the hostage(s) ... it pretty much means your lack of judgement killed the hostages. We have similar cases in the episode where Iron-hand-san preferred playing smart and put down his weapon instead of going John Rambo.
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Old 2012-10-12, 16:30   Link #739
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Nice first episode, I love steampunk shows. The setting is really dark, people are judged by their on the spot due to their psychic which may change due to stress. Hoppefully we'll get to know how the world ended this way in the next episodes.

So Butch Gen is the writer, didn't knew about this until after watching the first episode. What will pull on the viewers this time around.
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Old 2012-10-12, 17:00   Link #740
totoum
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Most of all, though, I found it pretty incredible that one minute the Psycho-Pass gun is saying "This woman is beyond all hope, kill her", and just a minute or two later its saying "This woman is now safe to take in, just paralyze her". If a few reassuring words from a raw Inspector is all it takes to shift someone from "beyond rehabilitation, kill her" to "please paralyze and take in" then that is one abysmally flawed system.
That's not what the gun tells you though,it just tells you lethal mode has been activated,the "beyond all hope" part is the enforcer's interpretation.
Stuff like this is why I imagine there's a gap between the way the system was supposed to be used when it was created and the way it's being used now.
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