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Old 2012-10-12, 16:09   Link #1301
Ithekro
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If you are the President of the United States of America, and someone clearly spouting bullshit, and that someone is not a foreign leader, you should be able to call them on it. Tackfuly or not.

One could probably find such things in the Lincoln - Douglas debates or probably a debate by Theodore Roosevelt who wasn't shy about things from what I can tell.
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Old 2012-10-12, 16:11   Link #1302
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solace
I'm sure Biden could have contained himself better, but I'm baffled at the criticism. Debates are like this. Romney dominated time, interrupted and spoke out of turn, essentially told the moderator he'd fire him if he was elected, flipped on multiple issues and lied his ass off to the American people, and yet he "won" the debate because by golly, he looked so statesman. I saw people defending Obama's performance as "Presidential", which is a joke as well. I won't deny that body language matters, but people need to not be so hung up on the superficial and listen to what these people say.
How many videos have you seen of people speaking (Democratcs and Republican alike) and then you wondered outloud (rudely enough ), "this fucker gets a vote too?" I hear what you are saying, but a lot of people could care less about the substance. I think there has been plenty of people including you who has pointed out the farce behind the need for a televised debate. When I went to bed, I still had a huge grin on my face and pretty sure had it all night. It's another form of entertainment where the like minded people went to the gallows and enjoyed eating beef testicle skewed in a stick while watching decapitation of the guy in the guillotine. Obama lost because he did not entertain. Heck, Obama heard the other guy say he would fire Big-bird, and let him get away with it. And that was the least outrageous thing he said that night. No wonder the Democrat faithful found Biden not-rude, not-dismissive, and etc. The fact is, Biden wins this debate even if he didn't laugh so often, or threw his hand in the air because the facts were on Democarts side for the most part. For a memorized rehearsal, Ryan still did pretty well, but could counter with facts only so much, especially when they are lacking.

Anyway, Biden singlehandedly may have turned the tide providing Obama doesn't mess it up again, critiques be damned. Obama just needs to make sure he brings his conviction with him when he is running down the facts one by one. As long as he believes that he didn't fuck it up as bad as the other guy is making it sound like, he should be able to come across pretty well.
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Old 2012-10-12, 16:13   Link #1303
Dr. Casey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If you are the President of the United States of America, and someone clearly spouting bullshit, and that someone is not a foreign leader, you should be able to call them on it. Tackfuly or not.
so is anyone ever going to get that I'm not coming down on Biden as much for being a jerk as making the discussion less coherent by constantly speaking over Ryan

"Wait your own turn to talk" is kindergarten shit, I could barely understand Ryan half the time and Biden was no more intelligible whenever he tried to cut across Ryan, being an abrasive dick is one thing but making half the debate consist of "asdepuerjfd;''adssldal;sdadsa'" because you insist on constantly speaking at the same time as your opponent is quite another
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Old 2012-10-12, 16:53   Link #1304
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Sorry but I have to disagree. I found myself laughing right along with Biden at the ridiculousness of the whole thing. Ryan has always been put up as the "brainy" Republican, and while he can certainly rattle off numbers his responses often bordered on naive if not stupidly reckless. I'm not trying to sell the guy too short, but it was painfully clear that he is nowhere near ready to have the responsibility he is running for.

Biden did exactly what Obama needed to do (and should have been doing for the last four years), which was to say strongly, "THIS STUFF IS BULLS***". Or malarkey, since Biden's Irish was showing quite a bit. Sorry but I don't find the things he did dismissive at all. He played equal parts debater and the voter watching at home perfectly. Frankly I'm amazed he wasn't more animated, especially when Ryan completely dodged questions, refused to offer any specifics, and repeated lines over and over again even when they have been proven time and again to be lies.

I'm sure Biden could have contained himself better, but I'm baffled at the criticism. Debates are like this. Romney dominated time, interrupted and spoke out of turn, essentially told the moderator he'd fire him if he was elected, flipped on multiple issues and lied his ass off to the American people, and yet he "won" the debate because by golly, he looked so statesman. I saw people defending Obama's performance as "Presidential", which is a joke as well. I won't deny that body language matters, but people need to not be so hung up on the superficial and listen to what these people say.

A lot of these commentaries I've been reading about last night focus far too little on the substance of the discussion and far more on the presentation. Huffington has an article about how much water Ryan drank. Really, water?! Who the heck cares?
Biden did a great job for Obama, no question. The problem is his attitude will be pushed through the sound/hyperbolic chamber that is the Fox/Conservative noise machine and the end result will be Biden/Obama = Old Codgy Bullies that hate new ideas. (Romney was pushed through a similar noise machine last week, but the key difference was how bad Obama did, not how disgusting Romney was.)

Substance is amazing and important, but it is easy for substance to get lost in America's over-mediated hyperbolic environment. Consequently, every step must be planned carefully, and presentation becomes of equal importance, if not sometimes greater, than substance. It sucks, but that is the way the current media works.
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Old 2012-10-12, 17:03   Link #1305
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@Don - Well played.

@monir - Essentially yeah. I was entertained. I don't feel particularly terrible about it, because to me debates are arguments with a ref.

@Dr. Casey - I had zero problem with understanding either of them. I'm not saying you're not allowed to feel the way you do, I just don't think the issue is as big as some make it out to be. It's kindergarten stuff, sure, but considering most of our elected officials act like they failed kindergarten, I'm sadly not expecting that to change in a debate.

@james - No argument from me, you're absolutely right. When I watched last night with my mom, we both commented that each side would look for something to complain about, and that Biden's performance would be a big part of that. So while I am stating my opinion that I don't think it should matter as much as it does, I also readily admit that it's something easy to spin, so it will be.
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Old 2012-10-12, 17:13   Link #1306
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
@Don - Well played.
I wonder how much everyone understood.

Perhaps it was too much...
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Old 2012-10-12, 17:35   Link #1307
sikvod00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
[snip] that black guy who likes his women white[snip]
I had to LOL at this description. But as a black male, I must say it is pretty redundant. Just say "that black guy" or the "other black guy" or "anyone but black women". It means the same thing. I believe Obama dated some in his earlier years, but apparently not with same level of passion as the Cain Train...I mean that other black guy. All your other Rep. candidate descriptions were totally on point. OK, back to talking politics...
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Old 2012-10-13, 08:24   Link #1308
ganbaru
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Analysis: Lame hopes for a lame-duck Congress
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...89A1I720121011
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Old 2012-10-13, 11:40   Link #1309
Kyuu
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...#slide=1277577

Oh the racism... as if no one knew this wasn't an issue for some folks. Nice of someone to finally express it in the open.
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Old 2012-10-13, 12:03   Link #1310
ViolentLove
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I thought people knew by now that the election has been over after Ron Paul dropped out.

Obama = Romney = Biden = Ryan

They're on the same side. These presidential debates are entertainment for the American public who actually takes them seriously.
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Old 2012-10-13, 12:56   Link #1311
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentLove View Post
I thought people knew by now that the election has been over after Ron Paul dropped out.

Obama = Romney = Biden = Ryan

They're on the same side. These presidential debates are entertainment for the American public who actually takes them seriously.
Only on fiscal issues. But those of us interested in avoiding WWIII, would much prefer Romney not win.
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Old 2012-10-13, 12:58   Link #1312
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentLove View Post
I thought people knew by now that the election has been over after Ron Paul dropped out.

Obama = Romney = Biden = Ryan

They're on the same side. These presidential debates are entertainment for the American public who actually takes them seriously.
Only if you ignore the social topics, women's rights in particular. Or care about education, etc.
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Old 2012-10-13, 13:09   Link #1313
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Only if you ignore the social topics, women's rights in particular. Or care about education, etc.
I guess ViolentLove thinks the only important issue is the debt. And I guess that's a fair point to make. Neither party are serious about trying to cut the debt. Obama plans to inflate it away, while Romney plans to do nothing at all.

See, the national debt is important. But if we have WWIII, then all bets are off. Though technically if Romney DID start WWIII, then he should be able to wipe the National Debt just by killing nations and robbing them. The Viking approach. That assumes that anyone survived it. And also the only reason people wouldn't notice the economic pain is because they are too busy trying to stay alive.
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Old 2012-10-13, 13:20   Link #1314
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And also the only reason people wouldn't notice the economic pain is because they are too busy trying to stay alive.
That or filling the news of battles and bloodbaths is a effective way to puch over ''fiscal'' new.
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Old 2012-10-13, 13:56   Link #1315
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentLove View Post
They're on the same side. These presidential debates are entertainment for the American public who actually takes them seriously.
It's for people too lazy to pay attention the rest of the year. If you think that they're exactly on the same side, you are kidding yourself. At the same time, I am very well aware of Obama having corporate interests too; or else, he would have pushed harder to take down those, responsible for the 2009 Collapse. The thing about Romney: He IS corporate; in fact, he's the very representation of corporate culture in this country.
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Old 2012-10-13, 14:10   Link #1316
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The way I see it, Obama is clueless on fiscal policy. His only idea is to tax the rich more, which is fine but not enough. He has no serious plan to slim down the government. On the other hand, Romney's plan is just tax cut and smaller government, but has no details whatsoever.

If fiscal policy is your main concern, then you are pretty much left with two choices of poison to take. Obama has no new ideas to offer, and with Republicans not in compromising mood, another 4 years of getting nowhere is likely. Romney has no real plan, and going by his past record of bending to the slightest pressure, he may well just play along with whatever crazy idea the extremists in Republican base comes up with.

So while they aren't the same, they may be equally bad choices in some people's eyes.
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Old 2012-10-13, 14:17   Link #1317
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I think I already made this point before. There are whole interest groups that come with each party that are vastly different in Social issues and Foreign issues.

While the Financial Industry cuts across both parties, the Democrats at least try to use Fiscal policy to alleviate social ills. Although after the 90's DLC/Clinton Third-Way era it's been more tilted towards using Market forces to promote Social Welfare. Still it's better than the outright decimation of the safety net that the extremists in the Republican Party want to do. >_>

As for the Debt Hawks, outright austerity in this economy will just hamper growth and send us back into a double dip recession. See how Europe is going into negative growth after an aggressive austerity program? Not my first choice. But my preferred policy choices as I've said before go further than what mainstream Democrats are proposing and are more in line with the Greens/Progressive Democratic Caucus so I doubt we'll get anywhere with it.
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Old 2012-10-13, 14:25   Link #1318
Vexx
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The GOP made the strategic mistake of letting their zealots put social matters (da gey, da wimmen back in da preggies) front and center. That scares half the country more than who is the worst at budgeting. Both parties fail at budgeting, the idea that the GOP as it exists now can budget is ludicrous. They're totally focused on extracting wealth for the .01%.

A fair read if you can get a copy: Idiot America
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/idi...00216243&itm=2
Quote:
In the midst of a career-long quest to separate the smart from the pap, Charles Pierce had a defining moment at the Creation Museum in Kentucky, where he observed a dinosaur. Wearing a saddle.... But worse than this was when the proprietor exclaimed to a cheering crowd, “We are taking the dinosaurs back from the evolutionists!” He knew then and there it was time to try and salvage the Land of the Enlightened, buried somewhere in this new Home of the Uninformed.
With his razor-sharp wit and erudite reasoning, Pierce delivers a gut-wrenching, side-splitting lament about the glorification of ignorance in the United States, and how a country founded on intellectual curiosity has somehow deteriorated into a nation of simpletons more apt to vote for an American Idol contestant than a presidential candidate.

Last edited by Vexx; 2012-10-13 at 14:54.
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Old 2012-10-13, 14:54   Link #1319
Kaioshin Sama
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For the first time in about a week Obama has seen a slight increase in the national polls, possibly the bump from the VP debate. Amazing just how much appeared to be shaved off of his lead based on one debate. I'm not sure how Obama's prospects have improved in the state polls though which are what's actually important right now.
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Old 2012-10-13, 15:44   Link #1320
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
If fiscal policy is your main concern, then you are pretty much left with two choices of poison to take. Obama has no new ideas to offer, and with Republicans not in compromising mood, another 4 years of getting nowhere is likely. Romney has no real plan, and going by his past record of bending to the slightest pressure, he may well just play along with whatever crazy idea the extremists in Republican base comes up with.

So while they aren't the same, they may be equally bad choices in some people's eyes.
I'd rather have no new ideas, than ideas aimed at spending towards other countries. Rmoney has only one loyalty: to his own money. As long as he profits, he'll do anything, including screwing America.
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